After becoming disillusioned with 4E, lately I've been becoming more interested in what Paizo has been doing with Pathfinder, and so far I've been pleasantly surprised with the results in general. I also love the idea of Pathfinder giving new options to the different classes.
One of the things I've never much liked about 3.X is how it handles metamagics. I've played games in which I attempted to make use of them and I've run games in which they were used, and in practice they simply don't work as intended. I attribute this to having to prepare metamagics beforehand. See, what I expected of metamagics is flexibility: flexibility to get that little extra oomph that makes the difference between saving the party's collective butt and having to kiss it goodbye, and metamagics just don't do that. It's easier for a wizard and cleric player just to forgo them completely and use Sudden Metamagic feats instead (which perform as metamagic feats *should*), or use sorcerer or favored soul and metamagic on the fly.
What I have in mind for a house rule is for metamagics for non-spontaneous casters to work sort of like the cleric's spontaneous casting.
- Casters prepare their spells as normal.
- To cast a metamagicked spell, they choose a spell they've already prepared (say, a 2nd-level spell) and a feat (Silent Spell, which is +1 spell level). Instead of expending that 2nd-level spell slot, they sacrifice a spell slot (empty or not) of the metamagicked spell's level to cast the metamagicked spell (assuming they have a slot of that spell level available). They still have that 2nd-level spell slot (and could metamagic it again) and can use metamagic feats as long as they have higher-level spell slots to expend. This makes metamagicking spells more of a viable option for the preparing casters without making them identical to the spontaneous casters (who can freely metamagic their highest-level slots).
- With this paradigm, you could also redefine a cleric's spontaneous casting as something like the Spontaneous Healer or Spontaneous Wounder feats (minus the limited uses per day) granted to clerics as a bonus feat -- or if the cleric player wished, they could exchange it for a different metamagic feat and play a non-healing-type cleric. And if it seems reasonable, the Spontaneous Cure/Inflict feats could be designed so that bards and druids could pick them up, letting them fill the niche of the party healer (or wounder). There's that options thing again...
What do you all think?
Probably balanced, but it tacks on a -lot- of flexability for non-spontainous casters.
I don't like it. Basically, metamagic just becomes a means to an end: you prepare Silence Spell just so that (if you have to) you can cast Magic Missil or Color Spray 15 times. You probably don't even care what the feat actually does. This smells cheesy and seriously steals the sorcerer's thunder.
If you prepare spells you should still prepare them; if you cast spontainously, you should still cast spontainously. Metamagic should play within the system, giving pre-dungeon flexability to wizards and mid-dungeon flexability to sorcerers. The real trouble to me is that those level adjustments for spells are just too dang harsh, especially considering that it doesn't change the DC.
Probably balanced, but it tacks on a -lot- of flexability for non-spontainous casters.
I don't like it. Basically, metamagic just becomes a means to an end: you prepare Silence Spell just so that (if you have to) you can cast Magic Missil or Color Spray 15 times. You probably don't even care what the feat actually does. This smells cheesy and seriously steals the sorcerer's thunder.
If you prepare spells you should still prepare them; if you cast spontainously, you should still cast spontainously. Metamagic should play within the system, giving pre-dungeon flexability to wizards and mid-dungeon flexability to sorcerers. The real trouble to me is that those level adjustments for spells are just too dang harsh, especially considering that it doesn't change the DC.
What if casting a metamagicked spell sacrifices both slots, and the metamagic feats with level adjustments of +2 or higher have those adjustments lowered by 1? Essentially the lower-level slot gives you the spell and the higher-level slot powers the metamagic. (Metamagic feats that have a level adjustment of +0 would not cost an extra spell slot to cast.)
For example:
If you want to cast a Quickened 3rd-level spell, you use that 3rd-level slot and a 6th-level slot to cast the Quickened spell.
Or to cast a Silent 2nd-level slot you use up a 2nd-level spell and a 3rd-level spell slot to cast the spell.
But if you use a +0 metamagic feat like Energy Substitution on Fireball it won't cost an extra spell slot to cast an 'Iceball' instead.
Probably balanced, but it tacks on a -lot- of flexability for non-spontainous casters.
I don't like it. Basically, metamagic just becomes a means to an end: you prepare Silence Spell just so that (if you have to) you can cast Magic Missil or Color Spray 15 times. You probably don't even care what the feat actually does. This smells cheesy and seriously steals the sorcerer's thunder.
If you prepare spells you should still prepare them; if you cast spontainously, you should still cast spontainously. Metamagic should play within the system, giving pre-dungeon flexability to wizards and mid-dungeon flexability to sorcerers. The real trouble to me is that those level adjustments for spells are just too dang harsh, especially considering that it doesn't change the DC.
What if casting a metamagicked spell sacrifices both slots, and the metamagic feats with level adjustments of +2 or higher have those adjustments lowered by 1? Essentially the lower-level slot gives you the spell and the higher-level slot powers the metamagic. (Metamagic feats that have a level adjustment of +0 would not cost an extra spell slot to cast.)
For example:
If you want to cast a Quickened 3rd-level spell, you use that 3rd-level slot and a 6th-level slot to cast the Quickened spell.
Or to cast a Silent 2nd-level slot you use up a 2nd-level spell and a 3rd-level spell slot to cast the spell.
But if you use a +0 metamagic feat like Energy Substitution on Fireball it won't cost an extra spell slot to cast an 'Iceball' instead.
That's a pretty smooth fix; nice job. You've reigned in the flexability to only apply to metamagic (you can silence whatever you want, but aren't using this as a means to spontainously cast your spells).
Spending one 3rd level slot and one 6th level slot is generally a much better deal than spending a 7th level slot, however, and Quicken Spell is the one metamagic everyone takes already. I'm not sure how that would play out.
Since you're letting wizards metamagic on-the-fly I'd hope you're letting sorcerers do the same (i.e, without increasing the casting time).
That's a pretty smooth fix; nice job. You've reigned in the flexability to only apply to metamagic (you can silence whatever you want, but aren't using this as a means to spontainously cast your spells).
Spending one 3rd level slot and one 6th level slot is generally a much better deal than spending a 7th level slot, however, and Quicken Spell is the one metamagic everyone takes already. I'm not sure how that would play out.
Since you're letting wizards metamagic on-the-fly I'd hope you're letting sorcerers do the same (i.e, without increasing the casting time).
Sure, I don't see why not. And the spontaneous casters ought to be able to do their spontaneous metamagics the old fashioned way too.
I just have them make a save to cast a spell meta magiced. Say they want to maximize a fireball, I use the spell level as a DC modifier (3, in this case) then I use the feat description for the rest of the DC modifier (this feat takes up a slot "x" levels higher. SO in a case where it is 2 lots higher I add it to the base spell, 3 in this case, for a total of 5. So the save DC is 10 + 3 + 5 = DC 18 to successfully cast a spell with a meta magic feat added in. Sorcerors get a -2 to the DC because they are used to spontaneously casting spells.
Plus this is a check, not really a save, so I allow them to add their level only, since this is pure skill only, and the level of the PC is the most direct interpretation of their skill. Plus it keeps the failure rate high enough that players aren't doing this all the time. Let them add in ability modifiers and it becomes too safe and gets used way too often. Besides, attribute modifiers to not reflect your skill, just your knowledge in appplying that skill to situations and research questions.
Failure means the spell is lost. Crit or back lash tables are also a good add in, but I don't do it.
I also like how this scales as the PC levels. The lower level stuff becomes easier to do, while the higher level stuff remains risky.
Anyways, just a house rule I have been using for about two years now.
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I just have them make a save to cast a spell meta magiced. Say they want to maximize a fireball, I use the spell level as a DC modifier (3, in this case) then I use the feat description for the rest of the DC modifier (this feat takes up a slot "x" levels higher. SO in a case where it is 2 lots higher I add it to the base spell, 3 in this case, for a total of 5. So the save DC is 10 + 3 + 5 = DC 18 to successfully cast a spell with a meta magic feat added in. Sorcerors get a -2 to the DC because they are used to spontaneously casting spells.
Plus this is a check, not really a save, so I allow them to add their level only, since this is pure skill only, and the level of the PC is the most direct interpretation of their skill. Plus it keeps the failure rate high enough that players aren't doing this all the time. Let them add in ability modifiers and it becomes too safe and gets used way too often. Besides, attribute modifiers to not reflect your skill, just your knowledge in appplying that skill to situations and research questions.
Failure means the spell is lost. Crit or back lash tables are also a good add in, but I don't do it.
A check to cast metamagic spells? Bring back Concentration, please! (Or as I prefer, rename it as discipline.) I actually like you're idea. In my campaign, we took on a similar route, but with a twist.
1. To cast a metamagic feat, the caster must make a Spellcraft Check (DC15 + Spell Level + Spell Slot Cost). [We used Spellcraft, because Paizo dumped Concentration. If Concentration were to come back, it'd go back to Concentration].
2. As a twist, we added a little extra "Dresden" flavor. Namely, in any 24 hour period, without resting, to cast a number of metamagic-augmented spells that exceed the Caster's Con Mod, the Caster must make a Fortitude Save v. the above DC or become fatigued. To attempt this again, upon failure v. fatigue, the caster becomes exhausted. Only an 8 hour rest (or restoration) offsets this.
IMHO, it's a mistake to hang a caster's spellcasting ability on a skill check (even if it's only with metamagics). It makes that skill more important than it needs to be and forces the caster to sacrifice his effectiveness at metamagicking magic to become good at anything else that's skill-related.
Requiring caster level checks seems like a better alternative to Spellcraft or Concentration checks IMO.
i think this a good idea anyone test this out in game yet???
But if you use a +0 metamagic feat like Energy Substitution on Fireball it won't cost an extra spell slot to cast an 'Iceball' instead.
That's right.
I would make them use spell lvl of same so 2 3rd lvl slots as this gives the power of archmagi to them for free, and if it already doesnt cost them anything to prepare why wouldnt they not prepare it anways?
I dunno about that one ... if cleric spontaneous casting is merged with this system of metamagics then any spontaneous Cure spell is going to cost two slots for a cleric to cast. Unless...
How about a "Spontaneous Caster Specialization" feat that lets a caster cast same-level metamagicked spell at the cost of just the one slot instead of two, then grant SCS (and Spontaneous Healer/Wounder) to clerics as bonus feats so they can keep doing their spontaneous Cure/Inflict spells? Bards and druids would have to take Spontaneous Healer as well as Spontaneous Caster Specialization in order to cast a spontaneous Cure exactly like a cleric, or they could take Spontaneous Healer to act like a 'weak' cleric, and I'm sure the casters will find other uses of Spontaneous Casting Specialization as well.
(Requiring two feats for bards and druids to be substitute cleric-healers feels better to me anyway.)
To recup-
* Metamagic feats would be applied "on the spot" and would cost an extra spell slot of the same or higher spell level to cast the metamagicked spell (with spell level adjustments of +2 of more being reduced by 1).
* Added feats:
Spontaneous Healer (minus the limited uses per day)
Spontaneous Wounder (ditto)
Spontaneous Nature's Ally Summoner [SNAS]
Spontaneous Caster Specialization [SCS]
Clerics would get either Spontaneous Healer or Spontaneous Wounder for free depending on their alignment and deity, and they would all get SCS for free.
If a cleric for some reason doesn't want to be a dedicated medic (or just be a part-time medic), he could exchange Spontaneous Healer or SCS for another metamagic feat...
A cleric (LN/N/CN only?) could also pick up the other feat of the Spontaneous Healer/Wounder pair so he can spontaneously cast both Cure or Inflict spells...
Druids would get SCS and SNAS for free... Should a druid be able to trade SNAS for Spontaneous Healer? I'm inclined to say no...
Bards, druids, and other casters who get Cure spells would have to get Spontaneous Healer to be able to swap out their spells for Cure spells (normally at a cost of 2 slots per Cure spell unless they have SCS as well)...
One more thing to add: Heighten Spell would expend a spell slot of the same spell level you're going for. So if you wanted to Heighten a 2nd-level spell to 5th level, you would expend the 2nd-level slot and a 5th-level slot.