I have just looked at the 4th edition PHB and MM and I am only confirming my suspects that we are in front of something that was never the intention of its creators. Classic fantasy, medieval environment and epic battles with primitive technology has been the blood of D&D for about 30 years. But if you look at the pictures through the books you can smell an Eberron spirit. Eberron was always controversial for the use of modern technology and a bit of sci-fi setting, nevertheless it found a place on the game comunity. Only look at the pictures of Eberron, I feel I am looking at a post apocaliptic world or something like Matrix, Mad Max or Waterworld. Where is the classic medieval fantasy we knew from D&D on the glorious days of TSR?
It is not nostalgia, just that I can't feel the same with 4th edition, this game has been "Eberronized" and it is not a classic medieval fantasy game anymore. I just feel like that.
I don't know if placing the blame here on Eberron's doorstep is quite appropriate. Really, the switch from 2E to 3E brought DnD into a more modern fantasy setting, with much less emphasis on the pseudo-medieval vibe you found in older editions.
Just check out the art, with lots of Dungeon-punk all over the place, as prime example. I haven't really gotten a heavy medieval vibe from DnD in a while.
Cheers! :)
You are probably not very familiar with Eberron because even if I flipped every pages of the Players handbook twice I have found absolutly nothing similar to Eberron... No Warforged, No Shifter, No Artificier, No Dragonmark heir, No Valenar Elves with their double scimitar, No hafling riding a dinosaur, No Elves from the Undying court, No Lyriandar Airship, No Lightining Rail, No Flying City, No Suspended towers, No Karnathi undead army, No Daelkyr, No Dolgauny, No Inspired... Seriously, I don't have a clue of what your are talking about.... And for your information Eberron is Pulp.. not post-apocalyptic...
I suppose you came at this conclusion because they include de Shifter and Warforge in the Monster Manual... Yeah.. you are right... It's probably too much for a standard fantasy setting... 4 pages out of 280 is too much Eberron! :-)
And regarding the Art, you have probably notice that the Pathfinder RPG use the same artist than the one who have done all the Eberron cover (Wayne Reynolds).... So I guess this make the Pathfinder RPG too much like Eberron also.... :-)
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I wouldn't go blaming 4e's faults on Eberron so quickly. I think it's more of a case of parallel evolution than direct influence. Keith Baker's been kept busy the last few months figuring out how to change Eberron to meet the 4e mechanical changes. (House Jorasco (sp?), the halfling healers - what's left for them to do if hp regenerates after a long rest? Answer, apparently - hp recovers overnight, broken limbs do not, and treating broken limbs as conditions like diseases definitely gives the halflings something to do.)
We don't really know how much of Eberron's non-medieval flavor was there in the original treatment by Keith Baker and how much was added in by WotC. It very well could be that Eberron-izing D&D is really more WotC-izing than anything else.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Etrigan, the OP was discussing "look and feel" of Eberron, rather than specific game components. (But if we were to look at rules, I'd point to the blurring of alignments and religions, the commonplace status of low-level magical effects, and the diminishing of a sense of grandeur and wonder with such things as "residuum".) You might want to apologize to the original poster for the unwarranted snarky attitude. (Or, you might not.)
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I think that some of what you're feeling is an artist issue, rather than a deliberate art issue.
If Wizards had commissioned art from Jeff Easley and Larry Elmore, I bet you'd have noticed a decided "2nd Edition" feel to the game. In this case, the artists working on 4th Edition have also been the lead artists on the Eberron line.
(Myself, if I were giving art direction for a "points of light" campaign, I'd suggest that characters have a lot more ragged, low-tech, well-past-their-prime equipment, because long-range trade with the finest Elven artisans and Dwarfish smiths is no longer safe and dependable.
(I still don't have a feel for how easily PC's can create magic items in 4th Edition, so I don't know if that general sense of well-worn equipment would be contrasted with one or two bright and shiny newly-minted magic items.)
I've never been particularly bothered by the non-medieval flavor...I think once I accepted a departure from Earth's medieval history, I was open to a wider influence. Anyway, that's my 2-pence.
Where is the classic medieval fantasy we knew from D&D on the glorious days of TSR?
It is not nostalgia, just that I can't feel the same with 4th edition, this game has been "Eberronized" and it is not a classic medieval fantasy game anymore. I just feel like that.
Someone help me out. Which 1e module was it that the PCs discover an alien space ship?
Someone help me out. Which 1e module was it that the PCs discover an alien space ship?
Uhm ... damnit I know this one. Black-something? Blackmoor? Argle!
Someone help me out. Which 1e module was it that the PCs discover an alien space ship?
Expedition to the Barrier Peaks
Expedition to the Barrier Peaks
Hehe, curses. Trust my brain to fail me when I truly need it! :P
I think that some of what you're feeling is an artist issue, rather than a deliberate art issue.
If Wizards had commissioned art from Jeff Easley and Larry Elmore, I bet you'd have noticed a decided "2nd Edition" feel to the game. In this case, the artists working on 4th Edition have also been the lead artists on the Eberron line.
Good point, Chris. I'm personally not a big fan of Wayne Reynolds style (sorry, Pathfinder fans), and also think that Jeff Easley would fit better for a "Points of Lights" feel.
Michael Komarck is great, however. I don't care about his style; his pictures are astonishingly good.
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Good point, Chris. I'm personally not a big fan of Wayne Reynolds style (sorry, Pathfinder fans), and also think that Jeff Easley would fit better for a "Points of Lights" feel.
The thing is that Wayne's artwork for Pathfinder isn't much Eberron-Style while I found a lot of illustrations in the PHB alone that would easily qualify for any Eberron book. So I think the OP has a point here, though I'm not sure if it's for the good or for the worse (being a fan of Wayne'S art, I may be biased).
But I don't agree to the OP's conclusion. I don't find technology in the artwork and I don't see any sci-fi influences (what has Eberron to do with sci-fi anyway? ). In fact I think that all those artworks, if created by Elmore or Eisley, wouldn't have caused the OP to think in terms of "Eberronization" even if they'd pictured exactly the same content.
So yes, there are stylistic similarities (it's the same artist after all), but as far as the content is concerned there's nothing supporting Patricio's theory.
I'm sorry Chris, But I don't see any raison to apologize and I was not even a ittle bit snarky...
But if you look at the pictures through the books you can smell an Eberron spirit. Eberron was always controversial for the use of modern technology and a bit of sci-fi setting, nevertheless it found a place on the game comunity. Only look at the pictures of Eberron, I feel I am looking at a post apocaliptic world or something like Matrix, Mad Max or Waterworld
He just don't have a clue of what is Eberron (by comparing it to Mad Max or the Matrix)... I was just pointing out that 'The Spirit' of Eberron is the various elements I have enumerate in my previous post... And If he see any of this in the style and feel of the 4E.. well.. he's obviously mistaken because none of this elements that characterize Eberron are present in any pictures of the 4E...
The style of Wayne Reynolds as nothing to do with the Eberron feel... The elves that look like punks are not related to Eberron but more to the Pathfinder Rogue Iconic Merisiel or to the half naked Tatooed Sorceress Seoni... This his the style that help to sale RPG book today ... but Eberron have nothing to do with that as 4E don't show anything that look like or feel like Eberron...
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Uhm ... damnit I know this one. Black-something? Blackmoor? Argle!
Someone help me out. Which 1e module was it that the PCs discover an alien space ship?
City of the Gods by Dave Arneson and Expedition ot the Barrier Peaks by Gary Gygax.
I ran the Blackmoor MMRPG for Dave Arneson for two years so I have a +4 on all Knowledge: Wierd Ass Sci-Fi in gaming checks.
Maybe 4e gives off the vibe of "exciting, modern fantasy", but I don't see why you can't make a strictly medieval campaign setting with the system. I think the DMG talks about this, but I can probably think of a few ideas.
First make magic really scarce. It's already meant to be scarce, but they say magic can be "rare and dangerous" in contrast to "The World Is a Fantastic Place" world assumption. And you might want to change "The Common Races Band Together" to get the 1st ed. feel. You may want to have firmly established kingdoms, too, rather than the world being plagued by monsters.
Now for martial characters, just rename all the powers to sound less over the top. Cleave will still be Cleave, but things like Tide of Iron can be Pushing Strike or something like that.
You can even take it further and require minimum ability scores for playing different races, but that just might be too much.
I agree with Logos.
We have been on this road for a long time. Probably from day one but we were on it and there was no turning back with the release of settings like Darksun, Planescape, Dragonlance, Spelljammer etc.
This is not just a D&D thing either. The whole RPG industry has been moving in this direction for close to 20 years now. A real simulation of gritty medieval fantasy with a sprinkling of magic thrown in has never been what most people wanted from their D&D or their fantasy worlds and thats reflected in our novels and movies. The Lord of the Rings trilogy was a spectacular epic and certianly not a representation of gritty fantasy.
Blaming Eberron for this is not at all accurate. Eberron is not the source of this. Its not even particularly close to the source. One needs to go much further back to the conversion of this hobby from being a subset of miniature wargaming and place the blame on the influx of players that had nothing to do with the miniature wargames hobby and had no stake in medieval authenticity, no desire to emulate that historical period and quite possibly very shaky understanding of what life and warfare was actually like in medieval Europe. Once these players became the mainstream we were walking down a path that would eventually get us to pulp fantasy.
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Complaining about a lack of historical accuracy in a game where elves ride on flying carpets tossing fireballs. Does anybody see the flaw in the logic here? Anyone?
That being said, has it gotten less medieval since 1e? Sure, of course. It pretty much had to in order to grow. If we wanted a true medieval style game, there'd be three classes, Commoner, Expert (for priests, mostly), and Warrior. Maybe Aristocrat on top of that for noblemen who never really got out into real combat. None of this Rage or Sneak Attack or spellcasting stuff. Straight realistic medieval RP is simply not most people's idea of fun, and thus doesn't sell all that well. WotC may have taken things too far this time, true, but the problem isn't the process, it's the degree to which it was applied.
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I'm a big fan of Eberron. I certainly didn't look at the book and think, "Aha, Eberron!" In fact, it creates problems for Eberron, particularly with the Dragonborn and how this major race fits in to the existing scene, given how important dragons are to the setting and history, but somehow never got mentioned before (sure, no one knows what is on Argonessen, but even so). It has action points, but they first appeared in the UA and were only taken up by Eberron. 4e strikes me as utterly setting-neutral. It has quite a different feel to 3e, but that impact Eberron as much as any other setting.
I'm a big fan of Eberron. I certainly didn't look at the book and think, "Aha, Eberron!" In fact, it creates problems for Eberron, particularly with the Dragonborn and how this major race fits in to the existing scene, given how important dragons are to the setting and history, but somehow never got mentioned before (sure, no one knows what is on Argonessen, but even so). It has action points, but they first appeared in the UA and were only taken up by Eberron. 4e strikes me as utterly setting-neutral. It has quite a different feel to 3e, but that impact Eberron as much as any other setting.
Interestingly, Keith mentioned that Eberron's dragonborn PCs won't come, by default, from Argonessen, to keep the "mysterious feel" of the continent.
Complaining about a lack of historical accuracy in a game where elves ride on flying carpets tossing fireballs. Does anybody see the flaw in the logic here? Anyone?
That being said, has it gotten less medieval since 1e? Sure, of course. It pretty much had to in order to grow. If we wanted a true medieval style game, there'd be three classes, Commoner, Expert (for priests, mostly), and Warrior. Maybe Aristocrat on top of that for noblemen who never really got out into real combat. None of this Rage or Sneak Attack or spellcasting stuff. Straight realistic medieval RP is simply not most people's idea of fun, and thus doesn't sell all that well. WotC may have taken things too far this time, true, but the problem isn't the process, it's the degree to which it was applied.
I don't think the OP talked about a lack of historical accuracy in D&D. Classical medieval fantasy, yes, but nothing about historical accuracy. Even in the real world outside of the D&D context, classical medieval fantasy does not include historic accuracy. It seems to me that you are putting worlds into his mouth that he did not speak.
I don't think the OP talked about a lack of historical accuracy in D&D. Classical medieval fantasy, yes, but nothing about historical accuracy. Even in the real world outside of the D&D context, classical medieval fantasy does not include historic accuracy. It seems to me that you are putting worlds into his mouth that he did not speak.Complaining about a lack of historical accuracy in a game where elves ride on flying carpets tossing fireballs. Does anybody see the flaw in the logic here? Anyone?
That being said, has it gotten less medieval since 1e? Sure, of course. It pretty much had to in order to grow. If we wanted a true medieval style game, there'd be three classes, Commoner, Expert (for priests, mostly), and Warrior. Maybe Aristocrat on top of that for noblemen who never really got out into real combat. None of this Rage or Sneak Attack or spellcasting stuff. Straight realistic medieval RP is simply not most people's idea of fun, and thus doesn't sell all that well. WotC may have taken things too far this time, true, but the problem isn't the process, it's the degree to which it was applied.
Thanks for your support doppelganger. Certainly I never talked about historical accuracy, could you imagine to play such a game? That would be a little worried since the only thing you can do in your turn is strike and strike or shot and shot, medieval fantasy as I refer to it, takes the elements more common in works such as J.R.R. Tolkien's books.
They can't be historically accurate but they won the privilege to be "the clasical medieval fantasy setting", that is the concept taken by Mr. Gygax to create the game. Medieval fantasy is a genre, there are other ones as dark fantasy, high fantasy, etc. But when we go to D&D it was created on the vein of medieval fantasy.Eberron has the right to be as one of the many D&D settings, there are other settings for D&D and the d20 system with unique characteristics some extremes as Dragonmech, but they are settings and they must give any relevant information in order to the DM to run such campaign.
But D&D should be a generic medieval fantasy game and leave everyone to add any change they want.
Of course there is a game of medieval fantasy with detailed combat,scarce and frightening magic and truely nasty Monsters but I can't get anyone to play Chivalry and Sorcery (3rd Edition)
Which is my point actually.
The OP is expressing his unhappiness at the evolution of Dungeons and Dragons artistic feel. There has been an aggressive movement from the more traditional styles of the older modules like I11 Needle from 1987 depicting a very typical party of adventures (a wizard sporting a very wizardly beard clad in long brown robes, a ranger dressed in green and brown accruements, a rogue crouched in the obligatory black, and a female fighter in basic chain mail) to the tattooed Seonis and some of the more anachronistic elements of Eberron. I personally like the movement of D&D into a more Renaissance flavored realm. Give me advanced rules for gunpowder, and pulpy technology, and air ships. Give me drawings reflecting gothic elves heaving absurd sized blades, pierced half-orc pirates, and swashbucklers garbed in Napoleonic uniforms. To each their own. I can understand how that artwork could possible be alienating or maybe detract from immersion in the setting if a more traditional setting is desired. But just because the artwork has a more modern leaning doesn't mean your game needs to represent that. As someone who has read many Eberron books, I would never concede that the setting or the setting's artwork is at all reminiscent of Mad Max or the Matrix. Let us not be extreme. However, the artistic concept behind the game has gone in a different direction from Conan-like barbarians and fighters adorned in Crusades period plate. Is it a poor choice, this modern infusion of art? I don't think so....then again I was watching a movie from the 80s starring Matthew Broderick and Rutger Hauer set in the Medieval period. Knights, falcons, and hideously jarring 80s synthesized music ruining the entire feel. It sounded like Bill and Ted were the music directors and using the movie as a platform for the might of Wyld Stallyns. I'm sure it seemed all good ideas when it was green lighted at the time....
Humm, all this talk has got me interested in working up Tékumel using 4E.
It is not nostalgia, just that I can't feel the same with 4th edition, this game has been "Eberronized" and it is not a classic medieval fantasy game anymore. I just feel like that.
As many others have stated, I don't think that's really a fair assessment. True, 4E may well be moving away from any semblance of realism or a simulation of medieval times, and Eberron certainly also moved away from a medieval world, but the two are moving in different directions. With Eberron, you have magic as science, all wrapped in a pulp/noire shell. With 4E you don't have any of the magic as science - instead you have the Points of Light campaign which doesn't mesh with Eberron at all in my mind. If anything, 4E feels closer to comic book combat with some of the powers. My Eberron games were more like Raiders of the Lost Ark meets pulp detective novels and I honestly don't know how well 4E will work with how I imagine Eberron.
Eberron is not the first campaign setting to push the medieval envelope. Several of the older settings did as well. Dark Sun, for example, has a weird science fiction feel for me. Planescape is another setting which had a distinctly non-medieval feel (almost Victorian - it could easily be converted to steam-punk if one wished to). I would also say Ravenloft with its gothic trappings is another example of a non-medieval setting. In fact, there was a more modern official offshoot of Ravenloft that was set on an alternate earth in I think the 1800s.
There has been a long history in the game (at least since the early 1990s) of non-medieval settings - Eberron is only the most recent of these.
I agree with Patricio. The artistic style of fourth edition D&D rubs me the wrong way. Mostly because of practical concerns. I do not like to see armour that looks improbable. I think the desired and requested style of most D&D artwork has a strong comic and anime inspiration, and is expected to be dynamic and contemporary.
There was mention of Wayne Reynolds earlier. His Pathfinder iconics are very much to my liking. Their equipment actually seems plausible. I like the art for Valeros very much. He looks practical, worn, and in-period. Merisiel, however looks awkward. Her blades would catch on things, she wouldn't ba able to roll, or tumble, with so many blades protruding from her sides.
Reynolds is a good test case for my argument, because if you look at his work for Osprey, >Here.<
And contrast with his work for WotC, >Here.< The two styles in question become readily apparent. There is a move from realism and plausibility, and a medieval European setting towards a gamist, style over substance, dynamic, TO The EXTREME!!!!!!! style. That is what the market is currently geared towards.
Look at some of the classic D&D art in this awesome gallery Compare and contrast with some of the stuff that we get nowadays, and you may see what is missing in the dominant art style today.
I would be very happy to see a return to realism in Pathfinder. There is no need to cover armour in spikes, and have people leaping through the air wuxia-style, except to cater to a market that already has a dominance in the culture. Bring back Parkinson and Elmore, and let us have some art that looks like it could be true.
I agree with Patricio. The artistic style of fourth edition D&D rubs me the wrong way. Mostly because of practical concerns. I do not like to see armour that looks improbable. I think the desired and requested style of most D&D artwork has a strong comic and anime inspiration, and is expected to be dynamic and contemporary.
The two styles in question become readily apparent. There is a move from realism and plausibility, and a medieval European setting towards a gamist, style over substance, dynamic, TO The EXTREME!!!!!!! style. That is what the market is currently geared towards.
I would be very happy to see a return to realism in Pathfinder. There is no need to cover armour in spikes, and have people leaping through the air wuxia-style, except to cater to a market that already has a dominance in the culture. Bring back Parkinson and Elmore, and let us have some art that looks like it could be true.
Though I enthusiastically agree that I don't want D&D to slip into a world of X-Treme Fighters and X-Treme Wizards reminiscent of a Doritos advertising campaign, I like some fantasy in my fantasy role playing game. Spikey armor, swords with unreasonable curves and useless pointy flares that only serve to tickle the imagination, I find it inspiring. I've been following D&D since 1989 and I gotta believe there can be only so many faithful representations of a historic dark age warrior. Repetition of the same themes over thirty some odd years of Dungeons and Dragons has to get...well....repetitive at some point and time. Evolution is key to longevity. Somewhere there is a happy medium. For the most part the iconics by WAR are fairly historically faithful but still relevant, I agree. I for one don't want to see Dungeons and Dragons becoming a clone of Exalted. Nor do I want sketches of a ranger dodging multiple arrows with Matrix flare, but on the other hand I don't want bland regurgitations of a knight, in full plate, bearing a stock lance, riding a bored horse, galloping valiantly across a drab field. I'm not interested in playing a historic simulation. My brother has heckled me at many game tables for years with the following simple words, "You know? This does not suspend my disbelief." It's something he says entirely to egg me on, but within the context of this game we're all playing I find it hard to critique whether or not the drawing of an archer is unrealistic because the bow looks too strenuous to draw. No pun intended!
I do like most of Wayne Reynolds D&D and PF art, it's so beautifully detailed.
However, I would love to see some new Elmore art in upcoming books too. Elmore art just hits those nostalgia buttons for me, I spent a large part of my younger years gazing at Elmore's classic paintings and imagining what was in the woods behind the fighter with the sword, what was beyond that mountain, or hill, and I'd love to see new Elmore work gracing new books.
Overtly fantastic styles have a place in my view of D&D, Drow for example I imagine as being quite flamboyant with their armour and weapons, Githyanki too. However for typical human realms I prefer a late Dark Ages (Norman era) style, I don't even really like seeing proper late medieval plate mail. So I may be a bit extreme I guess.
I agree with Patricio. The artistic style of fourth edition D&D rubs me the wrong way. Mostly because of practical concerns. I do not like to see armour that looks improbable. I think the desired and requested style of most D&D artwork has a strong comic and anime inspiration, and is expected to be dynamic and contemporary.
There was mention of Wayne Reynolds earlier. His Pathfinder iconics are very much to my liking. Their equipment actually seems plausible. I like the art for Valeros very much. He looks practical, worn, and in-period. Merisiel, however looks awkward. Her blades would catch on things, she wouldn't ba able to roll, or tumble, with so many blades protruding from her sides.
Reynolds is a good test case for my argument, because if you look at his work for Osprey, >Here.<
And contrast with his work for WotC, >Here.< The two styles in question become readily apparent. There is a move from realism and plausibility, and a medieval European setting towards a gamist, style over substance, dynamic, TO The EXTREME!!!!!!! style. That is what the market is currently geared towards.
Look at some of the classic D&D art in this awesome gallery Compare and contrast with some of the stuff that we get nowadays, and you may see what is missing in the dominant art style today.
I would be very happy to see a return to realism in Pathfinder. There is no need to cover armour in spikes, and have people leaping through the air wuxia-style, except to cater to a market that already has a dominance in the culture. Bring back Parkinson and Elmore, and let us have some art that looks like it could be true.
I couldn't dissagree more, looking through that classic gallery I found it all well...boring. When I crack open a fantasy book or a fantasy RPG I wanna see that, fantasy, not realism. Give me my hyper stylized and over the top weapons and aromr, give me my wuxia style moves, my Devil May Cry over the top craziness. Anything but the boring bland realistic old school stuff. Though this is all just my opinion on art and art opinions are very subjective.
Perhaps I did not compare things well. Maybe not Mad Max or Matrix but what about Masters of the Universe - the movie. Medieval Fantasy with sci-fi.