Over the past few years, I have been noticing (with a bit of sadness and disappointment) that fantasy role-playing games have drifted away from their fantasy literature seeds and forebears. As I look about my office (where I have fewer books than at home), I can see Fritz Leiber, Terry Brooks, H.P. Lovecraft, even Dante's Inferno, Mary Shelley's Last Man and Frankenstein, and (of course) Tolkien (including a 26 page gradute paper on the depictions of good and evil in LotR). So my question is: Where did these stories go in the games we play and when did they fall prey to computer game-based design?
I remember picking up D&D in '81 and using the back of the DMG as a guide for books to go check out of the library. I remember feeling closer to the game because I read stories ... not because I played video games. (of course I also remember my nice, sleek, white Pong console ... so I guess that says something too).
So I'd like to hear other people's opinions: when did RPGs move away from books and toward computer games? why? do we need to bring those stories back?
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So I'd like to hear other people's opinions: when did RPGs move away from books and toward computer games? why? do we need to bring those stories back?
It's hard to say. Some will say it's when tabletop games began producing material based on computer games like WoW and Everquest. Others will say that it began when TSR began producing Dungeons and Dragons computer games. Personally I think it is what ever moment that we as individual players decided to let it happen in our individual games.
I think it has to do with the sped up pace of our lives. Especially once you leave college for the work force or start a family, it's hard to get a bunch of friends together for an extended period of time on a regular basis. Games like Everquest and WOW permit you to game with whoever is available when gaming fits into your schedule; additionally, it frees you up from the hassles of providing a well-stocked (food and drink) place to gather.
Some people like to visualize their battles, but don't want to fool with miniatures and tactical movement rules; on-line games (and even solo computer games) do these things behind the scenes for you, allowing a more 'immersed' feel (instead of the story grinding to a halt while the rulebook is consulted).
And let us not forget--computers and the Internet have changed the entire entertainment industry; it was bound to affect gaming as well. People just don't read books as much as they used to.
Just my 2 1/2 cents.
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So I'd like to hear other people's opinions: when did RPGs move away from books and toward computer games? why? do we need to bring those stories back?
I would say that they haven't. They've just been subsumed into the stew that is the current fantasy/sci-fi culture.
Not all of the original RPGs were based on literature. Sure D&D had its roots in it, but a lot of games had origins in film and television (even if they started off as books themselves, it was the films that made them popular and part of the public conscience). Gamma World owes a lot to Planet of the Apes, Boot Hill to Westerns, most sci-fi games (Star Frontiers, Traveller) owe debts to Star Trek or Star Wars, etc. And even within literature, you have alternate sources of inspiration, such as comic books for the super hero games (Champions, etc).
Then throw cross-cultural tweaks in the form of anime and manga. "Record of the Lodoss War" is an anime/manga series that is nothing more than a Japanese version of a D&D campaign, with visual tweaks for their asthetic taste. Many anime were adopted for the U.S. (Speed Racer, Astroboy, Gatchaman, Robotech/Macross were the among the earliest and the trend continues to this day). And that continues to this day with new animated series sometimes adopting that style for shows intended primarily for American audiences.
Now it shouldn't surprise anyone that the folks who design games (computer, RPG, or otherwise) are probably a bit geekish and are exposed to the whole gamut of influences, not just a narrow slice of it. When they create their worlds, images, and characters, they flavor with a mix of evertyhing that encompasses their experience. Even though all of those influences started at the same initial roots of sci-fi/fantasy literature, in a diaspora they have spread out, adapted and changed into something new.
For what it's worth, I did ask if Golarion's "pulpy" feel was deliberate in a Paizo chat last week, and yes, it is deliberate. Maybe there should be that Appendix in a Pathfinder book again (plus it's a way to pimp out Planet Stories books). It's interesting to note that the DMG which the OP mentioned has books. Rereading the Eberron campaign setting book, I see that it mentions movies. Interesting shift.
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I don't like PnP RPGs borrowing things from computer games if it is only to keep "familiarity" for the users. A lot of computer game design is about crunching imagination to fit it into the modes of presentation a computer can handle, hence things like:
1. limited NPC dialogue/responses
2. small, distinct encounter areas
3. simplifying over the "world-map" to get to the locations
4. reducing all actions to simple attack/defense outcomes
5. simplifying magic/abilities to avoid exception-based possibilities
6. over-reliance on combat as storytelling device
With thought, we could add more to the list. My biggest gripe is probably number 3 - many players of PnP RPGs don't want long journeys anymore, it is always "we get to the town"
Can you imagine if LotR was done as a CRPG? 90% of the book would be accomplished by clicking on the glowing blue icons for Rivendell/Lothlorien/etc!
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Contributor
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Wasn't D&D originally built on a wargame system for re-enacting historic battles? I know that the inspiration for the stories came from great fantasy literature, but the idea of D&D as a game really does have its roots in tactical and strategic simulation.
Assuming my understanding is correct, RPGs have actually evolved over almost 3 decades to embrace "storytelling" games. That's the aspect that I've loved most. The fact that later versions of D&D expanded on the ability to tell complex, character-driven stories within a rule system is what tied me to it. It's also why I'm sticking with Pathfinder now that 4e is out. As I see it, D&D is actually returning to its combat simulation roots, mostly due to the fact that technology and computer games (the ultimate simulation platforms) have permeated our culture.
The fact that people are drawing inspiration from movies, television, and computer games is merely a reflection of the vast quantity of material within those genres. It's likely, however, that all of those media were inspired both by literature and by each other. After all, there really is nothing new under the sun...it's all re-interpretation of themes that are as old as mankind (perhaps older if you believe Lovecraft. ;-)).
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I think Paizo is handling this well with both electronic and hard copy approaches. I know that I'm a customer of both and use both mediums regularly. To what extent Paizo wants to expand the electronic version, who's to say. But what Paizo is doing is what I've been calling for for some years now ... and I'm greatly pleased to see that they've listened. WotC on the other hand. Oh well.
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Paizo's mention before they're certainly open to a Pathfinder video game. They just need an interested studio to license it to. :)
In any case, computer roleplaying games go back a long ways and they were around before D&D computer games. They're here because there's a crowd that likes that experience over paper and pencil.
We're in a visual world and it's only getting more visual, that's why video game rpgs are much more popular then pen & paper today.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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For what it's worth, I did ask if Golarion's "pulpy" feel was deliberate in a Paizo chat last week, and yes, it is deliberate. Maybe there should be that Appendix in a Pathfinder book again (plus it's a way to pimp out Planet Stories books). It's interesting to note that the DMG which the OP mentioned has books. Rereading the Eberron campaign setting book, I see that it mentions movies. Interesting shift.
As I read this thread, I was thiking the same thing. I certainly hope that the final Pathfinder RPG will have an appendix like the 1E DMG, listing books to read for inspiration. It would certainly generate a great thread on the boards about what books to include!
Creative Director
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As I read this thread, I was thiking the same thing. I certainly hope that the final Pathfinder RPG will have an appendix like the 1E DMG, listing books to read for inspiration. It would certainly generate a great thread on the boards about what books to include!
Noted! I'll strive to make sure something along these lines is included, as that appendix was one of the most useful parts of the 1st edition DMG for helping to introduce me to the fiction that inspired the game. I suspect Pathfinder's list will look relatively similar to the DMG's list, too.
But don't discount movies. They can be JUST as inspiring as books. The key is to remember that if you take inspiration from movies, that doesn't let you off the reading hook. It's best to watch movies AND read books. :-)
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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As I read this thread, I was thiking the same thing. I certainly hope that the final Pathfinder RPG will have an appendix like the 1E DMG, listing books to read for inspiration. It would certainly generate a great thread on the boards about what books to include!Noted! I'll strive to make sure something along these lines is included, as that appendix was one of the most useful parts of the 1st edition DMG for helping to introduce me to the fiction that inspired the game. I suspect Pathfinder's list will look relatively similar to the DMG's list, too.
But don't discount movies. They can be JUST as inspiring as books. The key is to remember that if you take inspiration from movies, that doesn't let you off the reading hook. It's best to watch movies AND read books. :-)
James, I hope that while the Pathfinder list includes most if not all of the list from the 1st DMG, that there's room for lots of the excellent fantasy written since then.
Three off the top of my head that I'd like if it were my personal list would be:
David Gemell
Raymond Fiest
Thieve's World series
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But don't discount movies. They can be JUST as inspiring as books. The key is to remember that if you take inspiration from movies, that doesn't let you off the reading hook. It's best to watch movies AND read books. :-)
Agreed, I actually really liked that about the Eberron Campagin Setting, they had a little section recommending movies that would get you into the "feel" of the setting. Not just pulp-action flicks, but some noir stuff (like The Maltese Falcon). I know I was inspired by noir films (and a few novels) to help get the feeling for the investigative parts of my Eberron campaign.
If there's one thing I've learned since I started playing D&D regularly, it's that inspiration can come from anywhere. I was once inspired to come up with an entire campaign plotline due to a Sociology course on Durkheim.
Thus, I think a list of books/movies/what-have-you that seem inspirational would be a perfect fit for the Pathfinder RPG.
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I don't like PnP RPGs borrowing things from computer games if it is only to keep "familiarity" for the users.Famililarity varies from person to person and generation to generation. To the new kids coming into the game now what's familiar to them is what's strange to you.
Exactly. And the reason it is familiar to them is because for the last two decades, computer games have developed to include certain tropes/cliches that enable CRPGs to function adequately on a computer. That doesn't mean they are good, just useful on computers.
PnP is a whole other world, and has had more time to develop its own required tropes. Some might translate, others don't. Others encourage what people call "sloppy roleplaying", like ignoring encumbrance rules because Diablo II did things differently...
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I think that the PnP RPGS are starting to take a feel from the MMORPGs is because the MMORPGS make a TON of money and they want to bring in som eof it. Just think about World of Warcraft, $15 per month for 3 million+ users, equals $45 million a month for $540 million a year at least. Anyone NOT want a FRACTION of that?
That is why, in my opinion, WOTC made 4E into a WOW clone. And you know there's a big reason to do so... about 540 million reasons to do so.
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I think that the PnP RPGS are starting to take a feel from the MMORPGs is because the MMORPGS make a TON of money and they want to bring in som eof it. Just think about World of Warcraft, $15 per month for 3 million+ users, equals $45 million a month for $540 million a year at least. Anyone NOT want a FRACTION of that?
That is why, in my opinion, WOTC made 4E into a WOW clone. And you know there's a big reason to do so... about 540 million reasons to do so.
It's more like 10 million subscribers. That's $150 million a month and $1.8 billion a year.
I think that the PnP RPGS are starting to take a feel from the MMORPGs is because the MMORPGS make a TON of money and they want to bring in som eof it. Just think about World of Warcraft, $15 per month for 3 million+ users, equals $45 million a month for $540 million a year at least. Anyone NOT want a FRACTION of that?
That is why, in my opinion, WOTC made 4E into a WOW clone. And you know there's a big reason to do so... about 540 million reasons to do so.
I still maintain that this will work the other way around: By concentrating on the same thrills that MMORPGs offer and neglecting the strengths P&P has over computer games, they won't draw away WoW players - they lose D&D players to WoW.
A P&P game just cannot compete with a MMORPG in the latter's stadium. People don't just want cool powers, they also want good graphics and sound, and above all, fast and easy gameplay. No matter how fast and easy they might have made 4e, WoW is the clear winner. Instead of having to get together with others all the time just to play, possibly driving long distances (or limiting your possible playmates to those who live near enough), you just sit down in front of your computer and start. And you won't have to look up powers or roll dice or calculate your attack rating - the game does that for you.
P&P Roleplaying games need to offer something that MMORPGs cannot provide. D&D 3e does that rather well, as do many other RPGs: The biggest advantage is freedom in character design.
As for computergameness and Pathfinder RPG: I think Pathfinder lends it self rather well to the "bookish" approach. It continues (and improves on) 3e's design philosophy "choices, not restrictions", just look at rogues (more talents to customise), wizards/druids/rangers/paladins/sorcerers (instead of being forced to ever get some critter as companion/mount/familiar, you can opt to get something else), sorcerers and their bloodlines, and so on.
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A big chunk of this is about narrative style. There are many ways to tell a story.
Since undergrad, my campaigns have been about slow explorations of character and the invesitgation of the consequences of decision. I see RPGs as part of a narrative tradition in the West that goes back to the Iliad. This type of story telling lets us taste a bit of the hero's journey. If any of you have rubbed up against Joseph Campbell, you may have immediate hand holds on this idea. If not, suffice to say there's a school of anthropology that sees story telling as a way for all of us to connect to each other through great mythic characters and ideas.
Some of the best games I judged involved me and my High School buddies plowing through Against the Giants and Descent Into the Depths. Now, these scenarios were pure Gygax, but not the most roleplaying focused adventures ever written. They were great, linear, hack fests that were strung together by the aestehtic of, "They are bad, we are good." Worked for us. The same basic logic worked for Beowulf. It also works for many video games. It's just one type of story.
It took work like The Sentinel and The Gauntlet and The Assassin's Knot to really change the way D&D stories were told. These adventures were much more about a dense story to explore and the consequence of action, than the work before. Then of course, there's Krynn.
Now I was brought up reading Howard, and Lieber and Zelazny and Cherryh, as well as Sturgeon, and Clarke and Asimov. Narrative design in D&D always comes to me in Chapters, with more and more complex moral choices that have to be made by my players, so I am quite sympathetic to your core concern. Are we missing something and is the game diminished with a shift in focus from people together telling a story, to people telling a story to each other in virtual space?
MMRPGs and computer game design have their roots in D&D. Keep in mind that Dave Arneson teaches game design at Full Sail and there are many, many programmers who went on to make games after being under his tutelage. Likewise, Zeb Cook is one of the folks leading the Stargate MMORPG design team. I have always seen computer games and RPGs as cousins, not unrelated mediums.
Any game system is capable of delivering a deep character driven story. I immediately think of Mass Effect and Indigo Prophecy when I think of very satisfying story telling done by video games. Likewise, I can point to the stories out of Geoff in LG and the Pathfinder Series and identify some very, very fine stories told in the deep and immersive narrative style of RPGs.
All these mediums tap the same human impulse. At our best, we all want to rest at the center of a story that makes us better, and stronger, and teaches us something. At the least, we seek entertainment and a few moments respite from the day to day grind of $4 gas and morally bankrupt political parties. Regardless, some of the stories we find are brillaint and transcendent. Some are pitiful.
I have read great novels. I have played in great RPGs. I have played great computer games. I have watched great movies. I have seen wonderful plays. Each is a way to what is best in us.
The people playing the game determine whether or not the aesthetic exerience is hack and slash or epic. That's the result of the personal choice and capabilities of the people at the table, not the system itself. Most MMoRPGs are weak narrative vehicles but so is most TV, and many movies.
You control your story.
Do not lament. Create.
My $.02
One of the reasons I brought this topic up stems from the "kids these days" feelings I (and apparently several other posters) have been having in recent years. I teach 18 yo college freshmen ... most of whom are NOT RPGers. I have found with increasing regularity that my students care less and less about the stories of their own lives (I teach freshmen exposition classes) and just want to be told what words to put on the page/screen. Now, I have no doubt that each and every one of these students is fully capable of engaging in their own stories and the stories of the world around them (outside of Linsey Lohan or Paris Hilton), but I don't think anyone has bothered to encourage an interest in any stories ... just in raising test scores so the schools can get more funding.
Now, this seemingly unrelated story also bridges over into my gaming community. I am the academic advisor to our Role-Players Guild (of which I was a member as an undergrad), and I run a DragonLance campaign within that club. That same attitude of "lack of story" bleeds over into my game ... something that is very frustrating for someone trying to develop a DL storyline based on the roles of good & evil. It has taken me 2 years of gameplay to convince my players that a character's (or campaign's) story is more important to the fun than their powers or gimmicks. One of my happiest moments was when the group's sorcerer chose to take a feat that would give him a baby dragon (far below the PC's or their enemies abilities) as a buddy rather than take a feat that would boost his abilities with his attacks. He did this because he finally understood the value of the story.
To go back to the original idea of my post, should we be trying to draw the "story" aspect of the game back into the game (for those of us who feel it is fading or gone)? Will our players become stronger and have more fun because of it?
tadkil,
Kudos on the Campbell reference! Yet another book staring at me in my office.
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Among those tropes that will endear people to 4e is the relative equality of player character types. In any MMORG for example no matter what your character type, caster, or warrior, or anything in between you have basically the same number of powers whether they are spells like arcane missle or tricks like battle shout or kidney punch.Another thing will be the speed of combat. 4E is designed to streamline both combat and recovery, again an expectation that has come up with MMORGs and has long been one of the problems of classsic D+D. Pathfinder by it's inherent nature has a very limited ability to address this issue. The point is that 4th Edition is addressing some real needs here and a different set of expectations from a different generation of gamers. Just as Chainmail was something very different from anything that had preceded it.
I agree that these changes might appeal more to CRPG gamers, but my argument is that making these changes for only that reason alienates the PnP gamers (completely different set of expectations).
I disagree that these tropes are necessarily good things (they might be for some people, but not all, especially for dedicated PnP gamers).
Character balance in MMORPGs is done for what I see as two reasons:
1) There is no point in making a class if it is even slightly inferior to others. Most people invariably play the class that keeps them alive and lets them play the game longer (investment of hours). If you are paying to play, you damn well don't want to lose your level 50-70 character because it is inferior.
2) It is easier to program and use a class mechanic if they all use the same progressions. Even if it makes no sense from a RP perspective.
Finally, the issue of speeding up recovery again relates back to investment of hours. Nobody would pay to sit at their computer and wait 8 hours while their character rests. And nobody would only want to be limited to one adventure per day, which slows down levelling - hence, you get all your abilities back in 5 seconds.
Slow combat is an inevitable result of simulationist gaming coupled with tactical turn-based combat. The reason the majority of CRPGs employ real-time combat is because 1) it is easier for new players and 2) in multiplayer games it gives everyone something to do at once.
D&D will never match the speed of a real-time CRPG combat. It should not even try. There are plenty of tricks/tools to help speed up combat without gutting the core mechanics of the game.
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Another thing will be the speed of combat. 4E is designed to streamline both combat and recovery, again an expectation that has come up with MMORGs and has long been one of the problems of classsic D+D. Pathfinder by it's inherent nature has a very limited ability to address this issue. The point is that 4th Edition is addressing some real needs here and a different set of expectations from a different generation of gamers. Just as Chainmail was something very different from anything that had preceded it.
I am judging and playing 4.0 while running a playtest of PFRPG. I have both experiences running in parallel. My 4.0 group is populated by people from 21-44, with my wife and I at 44 and 40 being the old folks. The rest of the table is around 30.
One of the guys sitting at the table is a programmer and several of the folks playing are avid MMORPG players. We really see 4.0 as returning D&D back to its roots as a table top game, and ineffectively dipping into the MMRPG environment.
Chainmail was the "first person shooter" of war games and focused on individual heroes as opposed to units. 4.0 goes full circle and takes the focus on small unit tactics combat simulation that was at the center of that games, and focuses it as show piece of this design.
While this is true of all editions to a certain extent, 4.0 draws as much form the design experience of D&D miniatures as it does from classic RPGs. I have said before on these lsits that I see Mechwarrior and Battletech and D&D 4.0 and D&D miniatures as having a similar relationship. 4.0 and Mechwarrior are functional RP systems for those minature war games.
I am enjoying 4.0 and we have a great time with it, but it is not any more innovative than Mechwarrior was, or the old Red Box was. It's a different way to position the brand, and the MMORPG folks I play with see it as a minis game. Maybe the online components will build out that experience, but right now, I am no more or less satisfied with it as a system than I am Hero, 3.5, or Warhammer's RPG.
The biggest selling point for me right now, is DM prep time. I can turn around prep much quicker and will be able to write more and judge more as a result. That however, does not realte to your core point.
James, I hope that while the Pathfinder list includes most if not all of the list from the 1st DMG, that there's room for lots of the excellent fantasy written since then.
Three off the top of my head that I'd like if it were my personal list would be:
David Gemell
Raymond Fiest
Thieve's World series
I've always thought the Thieve's World series was a beautiful illustration of the "D&D feel".
A new personal favorite I've found is the Lies of Locke Lamora by Scott Lynch...
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James, I hope that while the Pathfinder list includes most if not all of the list from the 1st DMG, that there's room for lots of the excellent fantasy written since then.
Three off the top of my head that I'd like if it were my personal list would be:
David Gemell
Raymond Fiest
Thieve's World seriesI've always thought the Thieve's World series was a beautiful illustration of the "D&D feel".
A new personal favorite I've found is the Lies of Locke Lamora by Scott Lynch...
There's an excellent D20 adaptation of it by Green Ronin.
One of the reasons I brought this topic up stems from the "kids these days" feelings I (and apparently several other posters) have been having in recent years. I teach 18 yo college freshmen ... most of whom are NOT RPGers. I have found with increasing regularity that my students care less and less about the stories of their own lives (I teach freshmen exposition classes) and just want to be told what words to put on the page/screen. Now, I have no doubt that each and every one of these students is fully capable of engaging in their own stories and the stories of the world around them (outside of Linsey Lohan or Paris Hilton), but I don't think anyone has bothered to encourage an interest in any stories ... just in raising test scores so the schools can get more funding.
Keep in mind, that you can find reports of adults being anoyed by "the kids" go back to the time when script was first invented. Apparently, it's a basic rule of human existance, that every new generation is percieved as degenerated by its predecesors and that even thousands of years ago, people lamented about how civilization is steadily going down. To belive that the situation with the current generation of kids is in any way different than that of the thousands before, would be plain hubris. They measure the world by their own standards, as we did, and our parents before us, and their parents before them, and I'm fairly sure in two decades these standards will be percieved as as culturally rich as any before, and the kids of today will be completely agreeing with us, that the kids of 2020s is the worst thing that happened to human culture yet.
^^So what's really the problem here? The kids don't like the stuff we like? I can't remember that anyone I know likes all the stuff their parents like. Let them have their kind of fun and let us have ours.
I'm pretty sure most of us mid-20s wouldn't want 14-year olds in our groups and veteran groups of 40+ would feel slighty weired about 21 year olds playing with them.
But don't discount movies. They can be JUST as inspiring as books. The key is to remember that if you take inspiration from movies, that doesn't let you off the reading hook. It's best to watch movies AND read books. :-)
Don't discount video games as well. Though I wouldn't want to play a PnP campaign with that adventure structure and style of play, games like Baldur's Gate, Warcraft 3, Primal, Shadow of the Colossus or God of War, and even Diablo had a huge impact on my style of gm-ing when it comes to creating rich and impressive backgrounds, characters, and plot-hooks.
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Don't discount video games as well.
Decade ago, "Thief: The Dark Project" made me fall madly in love with rogues, thieves and assassins. Two years later I rolled my first ever RPG character: a thief named Garrett. Ten years later, I'm still looking for a RPG experience to rival the omnious grim 'n' gritty feel of Thief's setting.
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Wasn't D&D originally built on a wargame system for re-enacting historic battles? I know that the inspiration for the stories came from great fantasy literature, but the idea of D&D as a game really does have its roots in tactical and strategic simulation.
Although D&D grew out of wargaming, Gary Gygax was a huge fan of science fiction and fantasy literature - especially the literature of the pulp era. There are all sorts of sly references to fantasy hidden in the 1st edition rulebooks - stuff like the displacer beast (which was lifted from A.E. Van Vogt's novel Voyage of the Space Beagle).
Curiously, Gygax frequently expressed a strong preference for sword & sorcery fiction over the high fantasy of Tolkien and his numerous imitators.
One important influence on Gygax that doesn't receive a great deal of love these days were the works of Abraham Merritt - notably The Moon Pool, The Face in the Abyss, Dwellers in the Mirage, and The Ship of Ishtar. I'd love to see these works re-issued via the Planet Stories so that they can find a new readers (Hint, hint).
(Speaking personally, one of my favorite works from the Recommended Reading list in the back of the 1e DMG is Sterling Lanier's oddball postapocalyptic novel Hiero's Journey, which had an influence on the D&D psionics system and the concept behind the Gamma World RPG. But I also have a soft spot for a few of the other lesser known works, such as John Bellair's The Face in the Frost - a strange mixture of whimsical humor and truly frightening horror...)
Incidentally, I seem to recall that Gygax did somewhere mention Glen Cook's Black Company novels as a series that he quite enjoyed.
The old vs new generations of RPGers (meaning old-school and people who began as computer gamers) is one big ass blood feud down here in Brazil. There is a lot of bad blood between the classic archetypes of both sides, and some people in the middle
To illustrate what most old-timers hate, a few years ago in an event in Rio de Janeiro, this 13 year old kid was annoying one of the DMs who was about to run a D&D demonstration to play the game. So, he was in with a pre-made char. As the adventure began and the party was of to confront the local mayor about some assassination...
<Kid> "I want to go into the woods"
<DM> "Ok... what for?"
<Kid> "To kill something, of course! There are wolves or something?"
<DM> ::stares blankly:: "Ok..." ::roll:: "After a few minutes, you hear the growl of a wolf. It seems to be alone."
::procceed to short combat scene. As it is over...
<Kid> "Hah! Dead meat! What did it drop?"
<DM> "What? Its a wolf!"
<Kid> "So? Not a single gold piece? This game sucks!
(the story goes a little longer, but no use going ahead)
The other result of computer gamers becoming tabletop RPGers is the growing distance D&D has turned from sword&sorcery to high fantasy. Every time the players want more powers and effects. One time I was describing magic in The Black Company novels to a few friends, all RPers, most gamers before that. And, when I decribed how cool it was that one Taken heated the ground under enemy troops and another made it rain, causing an instant oven. And they asked "That wouldn't work in a RPG if you can't cast fireballs!"
Is it bad? Not really. Its a style. Even if I prefer a grittier, more "realistic" fantasy, I cant say one or the other is "the true RPG"
I learned a lot from my current job. Im responsible for game content for an upcoming space-sim MMO and I also recently released a gritty-style OGL rules book. A lot of research and community feedback grew out of both situations
Games are definitly a source of ideas and inspirations as much as books, movies and history itself. And, been a visual media, its also an excellent way to learn or enhance storytelling.
For my part, I learn both ways. Telling a story in an MMO is definitly a lot harder than in a RPG (or a single-player game, for that matter). In the same way, creating a vivid, living world for your RPG players is something computer games can teach a lot to most DMs and players alike.
To illustrate what most old-timers hate, a few years ago in an event in Rio de Janeiro, this 13 year old kid was annoying one of the DMs who was about to run a D&D demonstration to play the game. So, he was in with a pre-made char. As the adventure began and the party was of to confront the local mayor about some assassination...
<Kid> "I want to go into the woods"
<DM> "Ok... what for?"
<Kid> "To kill something, of course! There are wolves or something?"
<DM> ::stares blankly:: "Ok..." ::roll:: "After a few minutes, you hear the growl of a wolf. It seems to be alone."
::procceed to short combat scene. As it is over...
<Kid> "Hah! Dead meat! What did it drop?"
<DM> "What? Its a wolf!"
<Kid> "So? Not a single gold piece? This game sucks!
Ahahaha! That's so laughable I actually had to laugh.
I would say that's an extreme, though. Not everyone who came from computer RPGs (or computer Hack'n'Slash games like Diablo) to Pen & Paper RPGs is like that. I must know what I'm talking about, because I came to D&D via Baldur's Gate, and I'm not liek that.
I do get the "what did it drop" from my players form time to time, even at situations where it makes no sense for the enemy to have any treasure. In fact, I get it mostly in that situations, since it's a joke, or half-serious question (at most). I like that, it gives me an excuse to give them a smart-axe answer.
"After your last attack, The demon dies."
"Did it have any treasure?"
"No, of course not. It was summoned and bound to this place. Why should it have treasure? 'Hey, you, demon! This thaumaturge divine guardian of mine wants someone to help guard the secret temple he's bound to, and I'm giving him you.' 'Of course, Your Monstrousity, I'll just get my purse.' 'By Myself, what would you need a purse for? It's a secret temple no one has been in for 10.000 years for Mysake. Do you think there's a kiosk there, and a guy who sells sausages in a bun?' 'Uh, right, I'm on my way.'"
"After your last attack, The demon dies."
"Did it have any treasure?"
"No, of course not. It was summoned and bound to this place. Why should it have treasure? 'Hey, you, demon! This thaumaturge divine guardian of mine wants someone to help guard the secret temple he's bound to, and I'm giving him you.' 'Of course, Your Monstrousity, I'll just get my purse.' 'By Myself, what would you need a purse for? It's a secret temple no one has been in for 10.000 years for Mysake. Do you think there's a kiosk there, and a guy who sells sausages in a bun?' 'Uh, right, I'm on my way.'"
Sausages inna Bunn! 2 copper pieces! And that's cutting me own throat!
Sausages inna Bunn! 2 copper pieces! And that's cutting me own throat!
Exactly. And now that I think of it, C.M.O.T. would probably find a way to flog his merchandise in a dungeon. Probably raising fonds for it even now.
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I have to admit that WOW has changed my style a bit, usually on the humorous side. When we meet someone in town I ask of he has an exclamation point over his head. That annoys the GM, which is of course why I do it :) Also, like th eother week, we screwed up so I asked if I could drop teh quest and pick it up again. lol
I will also ask if the drop is a Gree, Blue or a Purple. A few weeks agao we got some NIIIIIIICE purple drops. lol
But seriously, it has also taught me some things about designing PnP RPGs. I have learned a bit about pacing, placing "quests" and "mobs" and "loot." I learned a bit about tying quests together for quest chains. All of this is a way of telling the story.
Which is what PnP RPGs are about to me. Though it may not seem like it from my posts, in most of our games, we don't even pull out the character sheets. Krome is my epic drwarven fighter. He's blue. Why is he a blue dwarf? Because a grig cursed him (which would have worn off soon enough) but then Krome cursed a God's sex life, who just so hapened to be standing behind him at the time and the curse was made permanent. *Word to the wise... never curse using a God's sex life... they are a bit sensitive about that*
There was a show on, a LONG time ago, on PBS about Joesph Campbell. I learned a lot about Heroes then and have read two of his books. For me, the game is all about the story. If rules get in the way of the story, then the rules have to change.
But I have watched games at my LGS and noticed it is not about the story for many younger kids. They want hack-n-slash and loot. There seems a real divide in the generations, not just age, but style. In fact, as I listen to those while playing, I wonder if they have ever read a single book in their lives. I don't expect they have read in school (they learn to take tests- not think).
*sigh*
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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But I have watched games at my LGS and noticed it is not about the story for many younger kids. They want hack-n-slash and loot. There seems a real divide in the generations, not just age, but style. In fact, as I listen to those while playing, I wonder if they have ever read a single book in their lives. I don't expect they have read in school (they learn to take tests- not think).*sigh*
Hasn't this always been the case? Younger players tend to be more hack 'n slash, ans as they get older, they discover all the other cool stuff you can do with the game. I know it was for me when I was younger (started playing at age 8), and then in high school and college my player and DM style evolved into a more role play focused game.
I would guess that most of the younger players now, if they stick with playing, will eventually get to the point where role playing takes more of a role in the game and it's not all about the combat.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I don't know.
When I started playing D&D, we never used minis. It wasn't until 3.0 that we used minis. It was always about story for us. The cooler the story the better. Dragonlance was awesome because it was tailored for storytelling.
Dragonlance was what started me on the story telling/role playing path as well, and it took several years to evolve my playing style to include those concepts.
I don't know if using minis has any affect on what play style people use at different points in their life. I also didn't use minis until 3.0, though when I started gameing, several players HAD minis, they weren't used on a tactical map or anything, but were more just a way to show what your character looked like.
I really do think that the age/maturity of the player is what determinies what play styles they are open to. Which isn't to say that an adult who likes hack 'n slash isn't mature, but that adult is able to play in multiple styles, but just prefers the hack 'n slash style. On the other hand, a younger player probably isn't as open to other styles, and only has the hack 'n slash style in their toolbox.
Not that this is directly related to RPGs, but my 15 year old suddenly has expressed interest in Civilization IV on the computer. In the past he would see me playing the game and wonder why I'd want to play a boring slow game like that. (I'm hoping that this is a sign of him maturing in other ways as well, but I'll keep my fingers crossed.)
Are computer games better at hack-n-slash? Or is it a matter of style?
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Are computer games better at hack-n-slash? Or is it a matter of style?
I think that computer games aren't necessarily hack-n-slash, but it's easier to make that kind of game using that medium. Certainly, hack-n-slash games run much faster and smoother on computers since it does all the calculation for you.
That's not to say no other type of game is possible. Look at Fallout (particularly Fallout 2). IIRC you could complete all of Fallout 2 without ever attacking/killing a creature, using only stealth and negotiation skills. I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think you could even talk your way out of the final boss fight.
That said, however, it's very uncommon to see that type of computer game, due to the popularity of hack-n-slashers like Diablo. I'm not pooh-poohing Diablo, here, but it did make way for many, many bad hack-n-slash clones to come after it.
Plus, to make an in-depth RPG like the Fallout games takes a lot of time and resources that developers just aren't willing to spend anymore.
Are computer games better at hack-n-slash? Or is it a matter of style?
I think they probably are better at hack-n-slash, but I think that's more because it's easier to program for hack-n-slash than outrageous or unpredictible actions often seen at a game table or in a book. I think it's probably harder to program for the unpredicitble ... especially since it's often hard for a human DM or other player to react quickly to the unpredictibility of other players. I can't image a computer reacting to unpredictible well.
If anyone gets the chance, read the Mutants and Masterminds Beginner's Guide. Specifically the section called "What is a Roleplaying Game?"
In it, it approaches the subject assuming that newbies have played MMORPGs but not necessarily table-top RPGs. That was the ultimate sign to me that RPG now means computer game.
Let's not forget that there have been some good computer games that either went a long way towards reinvigorating interest in the hobby or simply stand out as great stories. I am thinking of a few in particular:
Neverwinter Nights- I never knew so many D&D players existed until I logged on to NWN. It got me psyched to play pnp again after a two or three year hiatus.
Arcanum- Awesome story, great gameplay, and hard enough to keep you coming back for more.
Planescape: Torment: Incredible story line, intriguing characters. A classic.
That being said, I picked up D&D in the first because of my love for Tolkien, Lewis, Lieber, MacDonald and countless others. Getting to be the hero of the next awesome saga was a thrill for me back then and still is today although I am much more prone to running a game these days than playing in one.
CRPG's will never replace tabletop and I vastly prefer the immersion of playing with friends with whom I have a shared subconscious fascination with hobbits and elves, long journeys, towers and deposed kings who miraculously resurface to save the day.
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I think everyone who is writing for games be it computer or tabletop should read Lee Sheldon's Character Development and Storytelling for Games.
My 2 cents
Trent
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think everyone who is writing for games be it computer or tabletop should read Lee Sheldon's Character Development and Storytelling for Games.
My 2 cents
Trent
I completely agree, Trent. This material contained in Sheldon's book share much of the views of my groups for the past 25 years. And we wouldn't wish to play any other way.
The only character development I have seen in most table top gaming is leveling up and grabbing mad loot. I would very much like to know where all this role playing is going on, ‘cause I am missing out.