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I wrote a review on the PRPG AR3 for rpg.net's fantasy week and posted a link over at ENWorld. There have been some comments but I'm not sure how to respond to this reply. He's basically implying that the Core books are still necessary for AU/AE and, by extension, to the upcoming PRPG next year. My impression is that, no, PRPG will not need the Core books since it's been designed to be its own game.
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Your impression is correct. The Beta will incorporate monster design text; the final version will include everything mechanical you need from the DMG, as well as the monster design guidelines. The MM will still be a fine resource, of course (though Paizo's own monster book is expected to be an early release), but it wil not be necessary. Pathfinder will have everything.
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For the Alpha, sure you do. Given the speed on changes, it would probably have killed Jason to try to completely rewrite everything every month or so for each edition of the Alpha.
The Beta will be a book by itself that will not need the SRD to play. It will combine the Players and DMs Handbooks, so you'll still need to look elsewhere for the monsters, admittedly.
Edit: Double Ninja'ed
Creative Director
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The Beta will be a book by itself that will not need the SRD to play. It will combine the Players and DMs Handbooks, so you'll still need to look elsewhere for the monsters, admittedly.
Mostly correct. The Beta will indeed be a self-contained game that won't require the SRD/core books to play. HOWEVER... we did have to leave out some elements; some of the spells and magic items, for example, and all of the SRD prestige classes. And all of the monsters, of course. The final game WILL have all of this stuff in there (and it'll be a maaaaaasive book as a result!), but for the beta if you want to include prestige classes or some of the "missing spells," you'll need to use the SRD or the core books. Or wait until we issue addendums or something like that to the beta that DOES include them.
But the Beta itself is indeed a closed and complete system in and of itself, yes.
I would rather pay $50 for one complete book, then $30 for two (or more!) books.
By the time WotC finishes their game, we will have Fifteen must-have core books (three a year, for five years). The mind boggles at what that game will cost people, especially if the subscribe to the promised DDi.
I understand that if a person subscribes to all of the Pathfinder products the costs would be comparable, but thats a case of Apples and Oranges. That would be more like McDonalds charging thirty bucks for a Cheesburger, because Outback gets that for a Steak Dinner.
I'm just glad you guys aren't holding a bunch of classes 'hostage' for a year, like a certain other company I could mention... and did. ;)
I sold all my 3.5 core rulebooks last week, so this is good news and what I expected. I'll be running both PRPG and D&D4E for the next years :P
- Zorg
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It'll be a maaaaaasive book as a result!
I would rather pay $50 for one complete book, (than) $30 for two (or more!) books.
I'm sure the Paizo administration has crunched the numbers and will make the best decision for the company but PLEASE, if there's a financially feasible way to print two books, or even three, do that instead of one "maaaaaasive" book.
I hear what Mark (and I'm sure others) is saying but not only will you get more material into two books than one big book but also -- and more importantly -- one big book is not going to survive as long. Three or four years down the road the bindings of these things are going to be mutilated; one giant book just can't handle game play for too long.
I'd far rather buy 3 books at $35 each that will have more material and more room for pictures than one $60 book that I have to replace in three years because it looks like it had to eat its way through a garbage dumpster because of the mileage on it.
Maybe Paizo is already planning for what book to print 5 years down the road; I doubt it but who knows. But even if you are, please do a poll or something, two books is better than one!
-W. E. Ray
I am leaning toward one book myself. I think one book is better then lugging around 2 .
The basic D&D Rule Cyclopedia managed to crunch all 4 or 5 boxes (basic, expert, companion, master, immortal) into one large book. I'm sure PRPG can do exactly the same.
- Zorg
HOWEVER... we did have to leave out some elements; some of the spells and magic items, for example, and all of the SRD prestige classes. And all of the monsters, of course. The final game WILL have all of this stuff in there (and it'll be a maaaaaasive book as a result!), but for the beta if you want to include prestige classes or some of the "missing spells," you'll need to use the SRD or the core books.
Does this quote imply that there will be at least some monsters included in the final release (i.e., instead of/in addition to a Pathfinder Monster Manual)?
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The basic D&D Rule Cyclopedia managed to crunch all 4 or 5 boxes (basic, expert, companion, master, immortal) into one large book. I'm sure PRPG can do exactly the same.
- Zorg
The rules Cyclopedia was only 300 pages. This monstrosity, just in beta, is 400 pages. True, Ptolus and the World's Largest books proved you can print RPG books of truly colossal page counts that don't fall apart instantly, but those were all at least MSRP $99.99. Doing it at 49.95 price point will be very interesting.
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The Beta will be a book by itself that will not need the SRD to play. It will combine the Players and DMs Handbooks, so you'll still need to look elsewhere for the monsters, admittedly.Mostly correct. The Beta will indeed be a self-contained game that won't require the SRD/core books to play. HOWEVER... we did have to leave out some elements; some of the spells and magic items, for example, and all of the SRD prestige classes. And all of the monsters, of course. The final game WILL have all of this stuff in there (and it'll be a maaaaaasive book as a result!), but for the beta if you want to include prestige classes or some of the "missing spells," you'll need to use the SRD or the core books. Or wait until we issue addendums or something like that to the beta that DOES include them.
But the Beta itself is indeed a closed and complete system in and of itself, yes.
Was Jason able to get the spell lists squeezed in? I know he wanted to, but he was fearing that his final string of sanity might snap in the process.
BTW - I'm up for the one core book, instead of +1. If you have a good binding, it'll last. By the gods, I have books of 700+ pages that I reference regularly (at work) - and they are hold up well.
I wrote a review on the PRPG AR3 for rpg.net's fantasy week and posted a link over at ENWorld. There have been some comments but I'm not sure how to respond to this reply. He's basically implying that the Core books are still necessary for AU/AE and, by extension, to the upcoming PRPG next year. My impression is that, no, PRPG will not need the Core books since it's been designed to be its own game.
He's not implying anything. You made an incorrect claim (AU/AE doesn't need the SRD = false) and he was just correcting that.
His post:
Malhavoc's arcana unearthed, ill requires the Dungeon master's Guide, and the Monster Manual. So you are still refering back to the SRD if your the DM,. This is true even of its updated status to Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved.
I don't see any reference to paizo or pathfinder at all there, just a correction of your assumption in your review. The thread was about your review of pathfinder, not of pathfinder itself, so no implication was made as far as I can see.
That's good news. I didn't want to have my core 3.5 books out with my PRPG, simply due to lack of shelf space. The sooner I can pack up the old books, the better.
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It'll be a maaaaaasive book as a result!I would rather pay $50 for one complete book, (than) $30 for two (or more!) books.I'm sure the Paizo administration has crunched the numbers and will make the best decision for the company but PLEASE, if there's a financially feasible way to print two books, or even three, do that instead of one "maaaaaasive" book.
I hear what Mark (and I'm sure others) is saying but not only will you get more material into two books than one big book but also -- and more importantly -- one big book is not going to survive as long. Three or four years down the road the bindings of these things are going to be mutilated; one giant book just can't handle game play for too long.
I'd far rather buy 3 books at $35 each that will have more material and more room for pictures than one $60 book that I have to replace in three years because it looks like it had to eat its way through a garbage dumpster because of the mileage on it.
Maybe Paizo is already planning for what book to print 5 years down the road; I doubt it but who knows. But even if you are, please do a poll or something, two books is better than one!
-W. E. Ray
Sorry, man. I'd rather have the one book. Less to lug around. And I have PLEANTY of books that are still holding together after years of usage. I don't know how you use and transport your books, but it sounds like you may just need to be kinder to your stuff. :)
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One of the best, and under-rated, features of Monte Cooks' Ptolus was the textbook binding.
Very true -- I'd settle for this but I'd still rather have a couple books that I know will last.
Don't forget, we get more pictures and fluff with more books, less with one book.
True, Ptolus and the World's Largest books proved you can print RPG books of truly colossal page counts that don't fall apart instantly, but those were all at least MSRP $99.99. Doing it at 49.95 price point will be very interesting.
See, I don't think it'll be interesting at all. I think it'll suck.
-W. E. Ray
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Honestly, I would prefer 3 books. But not a DM's Guide, Player's Handbook and Monster Manual. I'd like a Rules Reference, Spells Reference, and Monster Reference.
While the net expense is greater, trying to look up three things in the same book at once without losing one's spot anywhere is a pain in the ass. And durability is a serious issue. And I very often need to look up a combat rule, a spell, and a monster at the same time (as in "This monster casts this spell which as this effect. Hmm, howzatnow?"
Also, my experience with large books has been pretty poor. Books like World's Largest Dungeon and 5th Ed. Hero System Reference just fall apart far too quickly.