Creative Director
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I'm wondering what impact the GSL has on posting 4e conversions of the Pathfinder stuff on here? Or posting character stat blocs or discussing how to build characters or ....
Does the GSL impact our ability to discuss 4e on these forums... or does our discussion of it open up Paizo to legal action if materials covered by the SRD and the GSL are posted?
It won't impact the ability to discuss 4E on any forums, any more than we can or can't talk about Star Wars or Venture Brothers or Cujo on public boards.
It MIGHT impact posting conversions of other edition products to 4th edition to fan sites... WotC hasn't yet released its fan site rules yet, so we don't know.
It certainly prevents us from doing any official 4th edition conversion stuff on paizo.com, but that's not unexpected at all.
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On further consideration, it would be great if other companies like Goodman and Necromancer were to get on the act too- given the upcoming killswitch for their 3.5 PDFs, it certainly couldn't hurt more then it already does.
I love this concept, and as much as I am not a fan of Mongoose's products, I applaud them for the idea.
However, since the GSL is now an "at will" agreement and we're all pretty much in agreement that WotC was more interested in preventing people from working with their product than allowing them. Don't you think it would be dangerous for another company to release all their 3.5 materials as free to try to skirt the GSL requirements? Sure it's not in violation of the GSL, but WotC can just yank that out from under your feet anyway because you looked at their product funny.
I suspect we'll be announcing THAT in relatively short order.
HA!
That could be that teaser that Joshua Frost was alluding to.. that exciting surprise he said would come in June or July!
Get thee in a meeting and get that announcement released! Now is the time!
I suspect we'll be announcing THAT in relatively short order.SO PAIZO, what is the next big thing you have in mind?
My hope: Pathfinder Logo License
(It does blow, it's not a functional license and there's really no point in using it. They could've saved a lot of legal fees by just saying "there is no new license". I suppose that new start-up companies without the leverage to negotiate a private licensing agreement might use it, but I can't say I'd recommend that they do so.)
Despite all this, I still find it funny that Necromancer is moving forward with 4E plans. Necromancer hasn't even been accepted as a licencee yet. I wonder what he'd do if their products sold too well and Wizards "killed" Necromancer and "took its stuff."
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(It does blow, it's not a functional license and there's really no point in using it. They could've saved a lot of legal fees by just saying "there is no new license". I suppose that new start-up companies without the leverage to negotiate a private licensing agreement might use it, but I can't say I'd recommend that they do so.)Despite all this, I still find it funny that Necromancer is moving forward with 4E plans. Necromancer hasn't even been accepted as a licencee yet. I wonder what he'd do if their products sold too well and Wizards "killed" Necromancer and "took its stuff."
Hmmm seems like Wizards has been taking rogue levels. }; )
Hmmm seems like Wizards has been taking rogue levels. }; )(It does blow, it's not a functional license and there's really no point in using it. They could've saved a lot of legal fees by just saying "there is no new license". I suppose that new start-up companies without the leverage to negotiate a private licensing agreement might use it, but I can't say I'd recommend that they do so.)Despite all this, I still find it funny that Necromancer is moving forward with 4E plans. Necromancer hasn't even been accepted as a licencee yet. I wonder what he'd do if their products sold too well and Wizards "killed" Necromancer and "took its stuff."
No, they've been taking Expert levels. Rogue levels would have been an INTELLIGENT choice.
Well after wading my way through all 400+ (yeesh) posts in this thread...my excitement way back when 4th edition was first mentioned has finally fallen to nil. It's been a long gradual fall, but fall it has.
Long live Paizo and Pathfinder!
I suspect we'll be announcing THAT in relatively short order.SO PAIZO, what is the next big thing you have in mind?
It's the Bella Sara Live Action Rolepaying Game.
Step 1: Get a horse!
On further consideration, it would be great if other companies like Goodman and Necromancer were to get on the act too- given the upcoming killswitch for their 3.5 PDFs, it certainly couldn't hurt more then it already does.I love this concept, and as much as I am not a fan of Mongoose's products, I applaud them for the idea.
However, since the GSL is now an "at will" agreement and we're all pretty much in agreement that WotC was more interested in preventing people from working with their product than allowing them. Don't you think it would be dangerous for another company to release all their 3.5 materials as free to try to skirt the GSL requirements? Sure it's not in violation of the GSL, but WotC can just yank that out from under your feet anyway because you looked at their product funny.
Well, that's always a danger, but considering how open the GSL is for yankage, Wizards could pluck any number of reasons out of the sky anyway. Like I said back when the 4th edition kafuffle started out, that's the danger when you create support products for a company whose agenda diverges for yours- you find yourself no longer captain of your own destiny as you play catchup for their plans.
I'd hope they'd see beyond this and push the envelope and give 3.5 a decent sendoff- the financial equivalent of a viking pyre, if you will. If Wizards was to act punitively via the GSL, then it'd be clear exactly what kind of relationship one is entering and perhaps reconsider.
Has anyone been paying attention how other forums are taking the new GSL?
Like Gleemax?
EN World?
Other 3rd Party?
Gleemax was down for almost the whole day. Not much posting on the GSL, therefore.
Has anyone been paying attention how other forums are taking the new GSL?
Like Gleemax?
EN World?
Other 3rd Party?
Gleemax was quite hostile toward the GSL last night; I haven't looked today.
Enworld seems to be pushing a "no big deal" slant, which I find surprising. For all the talk of ENWorld bias, I had usually found them to be quite fair.
Has anyone been paying attention how other forums are taking the new GSL?
Like Gleemax?
EN World?
Other 3rd Party?
ENWorld has a bit less gnashing of teeth, sproadic support of Pathfinder. Clark of Necromancer was posting over there, he seems cautious but still semi-optimistic.
ENWorld and here are about the only places I check out.
Cheers! :)
Gleemax was quite hostile toward the GSL last night; I haven't looked today.Enworld seems to be pushing a "no big deal" slant, which I find surprising. For all the talk of ENWorld bias, I had usually found them to be quite fair.
What you might have to remember bugley, is that if you don't care much about 3rd party support, whether or not the GSL is restrictive doesn't really matter to you much at all.
I'd expect that's a position that a lot of people will have re: the GSL.
Cheers! :)
Enworld seems to be pushing a "no big deal" slant, which I find surprising. For all the talk of ENWorld bias, I had usually found them to be quite fair.
Really?
I've been reading the industry forums section of EnWorld (because I assume the zealous moderators would be booting discussion of the GSL there, and is there's been plenty to be found).
Most of what I read is negative.
Not frothing at the mouth negative, and everybody is being mature and adult, but the "stiff upper lip" pragmatic posts seem to be in the minority to the "gosh this sucks buttock" consensus.
ENWorld has a bit less gnashing of teeth, sproadic support of Pathfinder. Clark of Necromancer was posting over there, he seems cautious but still semi-optimistic.ENWorld and here are about the only places I check out.
Cheers! :)
Hmm.. I take it as a few shades grimmer. I guess I could see how you get Clark as being semi-optimistic. However relative to how he has been in the past... eehh.. yeah.. not so much.
"Calm down, nobody panic", never struck me as a cheerful sentiment. :)
Gleemax was down for almost the whole day. Not much posting on the GSL, therefore.Has anyone been paying attention how other forums are taking the new GSL?
Like Gleemax?
EN World?
Other 3rd Party?
I just hopped on and there appears to be three trains of thought up on the GSL thread:
"Arrgh- Gleeeeemaaaaxx!""The GSL is going to kill all 3rd party software support"
"The GSL is important for the future of WotC's business"- washing down the "let them eat cake" with some refreshing koolaid.
Overall, the criticism seems to be pretty muted- can't say I'm surprised really considering the state of the boards over there in the past 48 hours or so
Hmm.. I take it as a few shades grimmer. I guess I could see how you get Clark as being semi-optimistic. However relative to how he has been in the past... eehh.. yeah.. not so much.
"Calm down, nobody panic", never struck me as a cheerful sentiment. :)
True, I don't have Clark's previous postings to compare/contrast, not having followed this issue too closely.
And all I have to say is "DON'T PANIC" strikes me as particularly reassuring. I mean, it's telling you what not to do right there. Couldn't be anymore helpful. ;)
I just hopped on and there appears to be three trains of thought up on the GSL thread:
"Arrgh- Gleeeeemaaaaxx!"
"The GSL is going to kill all 3rd party software support"
"The GSL is important for the future of WotC's business"- washing down the "let them eat cake" with some refreshing koolaid.
Overall, the criticism seems to be pretty muted- surprise, surprise
I would say expecting a site devoted to DnD in general to be as concerned/upset about the GSL as a 3rd party publisher's message board might be asking a bit much.
Just saying.
I just hopped on and there appears to be three trains of thought up on the GSL thread:
"Arrgh- Gleeeeemaaaaxx!"
"The GSL is going to kill all 3rd party software support"
"The GSL is important for the future of WotC's business"- washing down the "let them eat cake" with some refreshing koolaid.
Overall, the criticism seems to be pretty muted- surprise, surpriseI would say expecting a site devoted to DnD in general to be as concerned/upset about the GSL as a 3rd party publisher's message board might be asking a bit much.
Just saying.
Yeah, you're right David- call me naive, I suppose. Oh well, at least there are other avenues of discourse.
The General Forum on ENWorld seems split, with a lot of the 4e crowd thinking its a good deal for 3rd party companies.
That's been my read today anyway.
Ah... how could I forget? ::slams forehead::
If it's not critical of 4E it can remain in the General Forum, proper posting locations be damned! How silly of me not to check in the general forum.
Those wacky En World Moderators.
Enworld seems to be pushing a "no big deal" slant, which I find surprising. For all the talk of ENWorld bias, I had usually found them to be quite fair.Really?
I've been reading the industry forums section of EnWorld (because I assume the zealous moderators would be booting discussion of the GSL there, and is there's been plenty to be found).
Most of what I read is negative.
Not frothing at the mouth negative, and everybody is being mature and adult, but the "stiff upper lip" pragmatic posts seem to be in the minority to the "gosh this sucks buttock" consensus.
Yup, but most of what I read was in the "How will a lack of third party support affect your 4E plans?" thread and not the main GSL or the "reap what you sow" ones.
I'd read the rest, but I've got a a bunch of work to knock out today. Freakin real life. ;-)
Dreamscarred said, "Unless I'm given some overwhelming reason to, don't expect to see an Untapped Potential 4E, a Third Dawn 4E, or a High Psionics 4E."Has anyone been paying attention how other forums are taking the new GSL?
Like Gleemax?
EN World?
Other 3rd Party?
Reality Deviant Publications said, "I'm fairly certain I won't be adopting this license."
Phil Reed of Ronin Arts said, "My one word response to the GSL? No."
Yeah, you're right David- call me naive, I suppose. Oh well, at least there are other avenues of discourse.
No hard feelings bolg. I just wanted to head off any cross board negative feelings before they got started. :)
So, can he do an "open design" product for 4E and under the OGL?
Seems like if he does one for 4E, the others are toast, yes?
Uh uh, not really Dave.
Wrath of the River King (the tenative 4e Project title) can still be published under a different product line. It couldn't have any connection to Zobeck, or any other distinctive components of his 3.5 Projects, but the license still allows for an unrelated 4E Project, without ceasing publication of your OGL line.
With his 4E patrons Wolfgang has toyed with names for a 4E line, and/or maybe a distinctive product line logo.
None of this is offical. The 4E project isn't fully funded yet, and nothing was ever finalized until the GSL came out. Plus I'm not his offical spokesperson.
I only know this because the nature of Open Design requires some advance planning, and he discusses things with Patrons, even in the preliminary stages.
Not really, dude. Someone may have raised this point already, but according to the GSL Wizards gets to make a reasonable call about what they think is all part of the same product line. And its seems a reasonable argument that everything called Open Design belongs to the same line.
That said, I read this as meaning that when I launch or convert to a 4e line, I'm at risk of Wizards declaring my other stuff part of it. Which immediately stops me from making more or selling PDFs of whatever they've declared as part of my 4e line. My recourse would, presumably, be to sue them to get my products un-declared part of the same line. But I'd be shut down (not including print stock already on the shelves) until it was resolved. *shudder*
I'm wondering what impact the GSL has on posting 4e conversions of the Pathfinder stuff on here? Or posting character stat blocs or discussing how to build characters or ....
Does the GSL impact our ability to discuss 4e on these forums... or does our discussion of it open up Paizo to legal action if materials covered by the SRD and the GSL are posted?
It won't impact the ability to discuss 4E on any forums, any more than we can or can't talk about Star Wars or Venture Brothers or Cujo on public boards.
It MIGHT impact posting conversions of other edition products to 4th edition to fan sites... WotC hasn't yet released its fan site rules yet, so we don't know.
It certainly prevents us from doing any official 4th edition conversion stuff on paizo.com, but that's not unexpected at all.
After reading the GSL and the Gleemax terms, I'm crafting a larger tinfoil hat when the fan site policy is released.
The definition of Product line is admittedly, troubling.As troubling as it is for 3rd party publishers, it's really the only sensible way WotC could have defined it. Not that it's really any more than a heads-up to discourgae publishers from over-working their legal department - after all, they can just yank the license from a publisher without reason under this license if they really want to...
Which is precisely why they could have defined product line better than whatever they can reasonably declare is part of a product line.
To misquote Sebastian, I believe they were up to doing a better job of defining Product Line if they'd wanted to do so.
Not really, dude. Someone may have raised this point already, but according to the GSL Wizards gets to make a reasonable call about what they think is all part of the same product line. And its seems a reasonable argument that everything called Open Design belongs to the same line.
Yeah Lou, but you skimmed over the part about him coming up with a different product line name (different than "Open Design"), with a different logo.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I did point out that he was planning on taking reasonable steps to avoid an obvious trap.
Which Wolfgang also reasserted to Dave, further along in the thread, down from where you replied to me.
Again, I'm not saying that your concern and point isn't valid- just that you didn't take my entire post into account when you said I was wrong. That one should be cautious about doing something does not equate to the fact that it can't be done.
That said, I read this as meaning that when I launch or convert to a 4e line, I'm at risk of Wizards declaring my other stuff part of it. Which immediately stops me from making more or selling PDFs of whatever they've declared as part of my 4e line. My recourse would, presumably, be to sue them to get my products un-declared part of the same line. But I'd be shut down (not including print stock already on the shelves) until it was resolved. *shudder*
Again, the point is valid.
Now, I'm not his spokesperson. At best I'm his Patron. As of last night all of this was just under thoughtful consideration. He has stressed that he wants to protect KQ and O.D., and like many other industry people (such as yourself), he needs to sit with this a while and think it through. He might change his mind about it now.
Find his post Lou, and reply to him. That would be an interesting conversation.
I suspect we'll be announcing THAT in relatively short order.SO PAIZO, what is the next big thing you have in mind?
It's the Bella Sara Live Action Rolepaying Game.
Step 1: Get a horse!
Be sure to enter the code correctly!
I saw this coming.
Many, many, many months ago I actually posted on a thread here on Paizo that I was afraid of something like this coming about.Now to dig through the threads and find it.
*Shakes head*
Well, I'm happy Paizo's going the route they are.
Great. Why do I have the feeling I'll be the first person who responded to you in that thread to say "they'd never do something that stupid, put away your tinfoil hat."
Hmmm...crow...yummy...
Because it wouldn't be the first time? :)
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Here, can I pass you another helping?
:)
We actually broke out the champagne last Friday when my awesome staff got all those amazing books off to the printer so they will be there in time for GenCon. Oh, and cake too. Champagne and cake. Yummy.
-Lisa
You know, I can't help but compare Lisa's posts with the attitude behind the GSL. There's such a vast difference between the two, and I think it really speaks volumes about WotC's and Paizo's respective mindsets and philosophies.
All I can say is, long live Paizo, and thanks, Lisa! :-)
You know, I can't help but compare Lisa's posts with the attitude behind the GSL. There's such a vast difference between the two, and I think it really speaks volumes about WotC's and Paizo's respective mindsets and philosophies.
All I can say is, long live Paizo, and thanks, Lisa! :-)
FWIW, I'm pretty sure the 4E devs also had cake (and possibly champagne) when they finally got the books off to the printers.
Bringing the GSL into things is apples to oranges. :)
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Creative Director
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You know, I can't help but compare Lisa's posts with the attitude behind the GSL. There's such a vast difference between the two, and I think it really speaks volumes about WotC's and Paizo's respective mindsets and philosophies.
All I can say is, long live Paizo, and thanks, Lisa! :-)
FWIW, I'm pretty sure the 4E devs also had cake (and possibly champagne) when they finally got the books off to the printers.
Bringing the GSL into things is apples to oranges. :)
The cake is a lie.
The cake is a lie.
Your vile slandering of the cake is the lie!
...it's the grief counseling that's the real lie.
The cake is a lie.
As long as Lisa sprang for the booze, James. As long as the booze wasn't a lie.
Or, are you saying that WOTC's cake was a lie?
Should we institute "Cake for Jacobs Day"?
I don't mine chipping in ten bucks to buy you a cake. Like chocolate?
At least the offer wasn't, Cake or Death...;)The cake is a lie.
Your vile slandering of the cake is the lie!
...it's the grief counseling that's the real lie.
Now I want cake. :(
Edit: Cause it beats death!
Not really, dude. Someone may have raised this point already, but according to the GSL Wizards gets to make a reasonable call about what they think is all part of the same product line. And its seems a reasonable argument that everything called Open Design belongs to the same line.
Yeah Lou, but you skimmed over the part about him coming up with a different product line name (different than "Open Design"), with a different logo.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I did point out that he was planning on taking reasonable steps to avoid an obvious trap.
Which Wolfgang also reasserted to Dave, further along in the thread, down from where you replied to me.
Again, I'm not saying that your concern and point isn't valid- just that you didn't take my entire post into account when you said I was wrong. That one should be cautious about doing something does not equate to the fact that it can't be done.
That said, I read this as meaning that when I launch or convert to a 4e line, I'm at risk of Wizards declaring my other stuff part of it. Which immediately stops me from making more or selling PDFs of whatever they've declared as part of my 4e line. My recourse would, presumably, be to sue them to get my products un-declared part of the same line. But I'd be shut down (not including print stock already on the shelves) until it was resolved. *shudder*Again, the point is valid.
Now, I'm not his spokesperson. At best I'm his Patron. As of last night all of this was just under thoughtful consideration. He has stressed that he wants to protect KQ and O.D., and like many other industry people (such as yourself), he needs to sit with this a while and think it through. He might change his mind about it now.
Find his post Lou, and reply to him. That would be an interesting conversation.
Fair enough! That's what I get for skimming. I think old Wolfie has a headache right now, so I'm going to leave him alone for now. Maybe catch him on the WC boards, later. I'd be pooing a brick, myself. What if they decided I'd changed the name and logo just as an attempt to avoid having things declared part of the same line that I knew were part of the same line? Gah. My head hurts.
We actually broke out the champagne last Friday when my awesome staff got all those amazing books off to the printer so they will be there in time for GenCon. Oh, and cake too. Champagne and cake. Yummy.
Lisa:
You do have the best staff in the business -- professional, incredibly talented, they love RPGs, and (for lack of a better phrase) they love their customers.
Not every company in the industry can lay claim to all those qualities.
We actually broke out the champagne last Friday when my awesome staff got all those amazing books off to the printer so they will be there in time for GenCon. Oh, and cake too. Champagne and cake. Yummy.
Lisa:
You do have the best staff in the business -- professional, incredibly talented, they love RPGs, and (for lack of a better phrase) they love their customers.
Not every company in the industry can lay claim to all those qualities.