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All official press material refer to the rpg as derived from the 3.5 SRD via the OGL. There's nothing in print about "3.75" or "3.99". Why can't one refer to similar systems like Malhavoc's Arcana Unearthed or True20 as "3.75"? Same with the Conan RPG by Mongoose Press.
Is such a title system real? Or fan-based? Many of the PfRPG changes far exceed anything WotC did when it updated 3.0 to 3.5.
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I think you could say it is 3.5 hijacked and turned in something called "Pathfinder RPG 1.0A, 1.0B and finally 1.0 Release in 2009". It is Paizo's world and you can say whatever you like, but it is something that will not be following the WotC naming version methods. It is true that they will be trying to make their version backward compatible to all previous WotC products in 3.x, or at least try. I do believe however, that they intend this to be its own thing eventually. They are using recommendations from the community to fix the broken 3.5 version. The fact that WotC built all their supplements around a broken system makes most of those works suck within the broken confines.
You see, you can change the SRD and the OGL 3.5 books standard stuff to suite your fancy or fix what is broken, but you can't fix all those WotC supplements because they are copyrighted. And there we have the problem; of keeping the game and all its past works compatible or truly fixing a broken system (at least in someways) so the game can be better for Pathfinder RPG.
Walking the line between the two is a monumental task, and I am sure that everyone has an opinion on this.
As a DM, I don't really care if Bards get to be played or not because they sucked as they were originally written. However, I do not want to see Bards get so buffed to be likeable that they become stronger than most of the classes offered in the WotC supplement books. I am also hoping that some new system isn't developed that requires me to basically run conversions for all my WotC supplements. In fact, if there is any progress at all, what I would hope for is just an overall increase in speed for making the game play faster and easier (for the DM to run). I hate rules that slow the game down, and I think there are a lot of smart people out there who can each add a little something to speed things up.
So, 3.75 isn't the goal I think. I think the goal is to continue where things left off in Dungeon Magazine but with no possible chances of having things shutdown by the licensee. If you wish to call it 3.75 you can, but really this is Pathfinder RPG as newbies will come to know it and it is my hope that one day D&D will be some laughable title that went up in smoke like vaporware.
We will see...
Cheers,
Zux
Joela, I think 3.75 would imply trying to take all the best features of 3.5 and 4E and cobbling together a "Chimera RPG" system.
From what I've seen, the goal of PFRPG seems 2-fold:
1)- To allow 3.x to live on by creating a new source of SRD-based rulebooks since the WotC 3.5 books are [going] out-of-print.
2)- To use the years of play-feedback with 3.5 to improve upon the SRD and create a revised system that doesn't need 4E. (This also seems to be how Paizo would like to continue telling their stories.)
Now is there a certain degree of overlap that we could claim between changes found in PFRPG and in 4E? Of course. However, I think those instances are a matter of two thinkers arriving at similar conclusions rather than indicating that there was a need for one to copy off of the other.
It's just an analogy:
3rd edition D&D + some incremental changes that aren't large enough to merit calling it "4th edition" => 3.5 edition D&D
3.5 edition D&D + some incremental changes that aren't large enough to merit calling it "4th edition" => "3.75" edition D&D (or "3.6" or "3.P" or whatever)
All official press material refer to the rpg as derived from the 3.5 SRD via the OGL. There's nothing in print about "3.75" or "3.99". Why can't one refer to similar systems like Malhavoc's Arcana Unearthed or True20 as "3.75"? Same with the Conan RPG by Mongoose Press.
Is such a title system real? Or fan-based? Many of the PfRPG changes far exceed anything WotC did when it updated 3.0 to 3.5.
I think that Arcana Unearthed and True20 were not intended to substitute for 3.5. They were done to give it a different flavor and sometimes used the mechanics to do that. Although they might have included some 'improvements' they were not meant to 'fix and replace' 3.5. Although similar systems, these games were not intended to be reverse compatible. In many ways, they stand alone. If you want to play Arcana Unearthed, you don't buy Complete Arcane. You buy the Arcana Unearthed Player's Companion.
Finally, before PRPG was announced, several people were talking about making a fan-generated 3.75 to fix 3.5 rather than go to 4.0. Then PRPG was announced. PRPG does intend reverse compatibility and to 'fix and replace' 3.5, so people frequently call it 3.75. If you want to play PRPG, you can use Complete Arcana.
P.S. I still think Arcana Unearthed is real cool.
In my circles I've been calling it the unofficial 4.0 because it actually feels like a sequel. It's not too different where I don't recognize that its d and d (for instance if you put 4e and the fairy tales rpg down, strip the graphics out and all references to "d and d" i wouldn't know which one was 4e.
By calling it 3.75, it might even be demeaning it a bit. It's pretty universal appeal that 4e is not traditional dungeons and dragons compared to any previous system and is, intself, a whole new brand of rpg. It is 4.0 only because wotc owns the naming rights to it. To call pathfinder less, is a slap in the face, as the paizo folk actually listened to complaints about 3.75, tried to fix them, and added modifications to make the game feel like the next step as opposed to d&d for dummies: the mini game.
By calling it 3.75, it might even be demeaning it a bit.
I say we call the Pathfinder RPG 4.5e then! :)
/Actually, I use 3.P or PRGP
Names are names. People get all mad about the name of a thing. However, I understand why 3.75 became a title "unofficially". Pathfinder seemed more of a campaign name like Forgotten Realms or Eberron. 4e D&D is a totally different system than previous editions. Was 3e broken? Did 3.5 fix it? Mostly. Paizo's new spin-off builds on the existing system(3.5) by fixing and tweaking it. Is it the best yet. We will see. But the horizon looks hopeful.
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Pathfinder RPG Beta... that's it. Why does it need a number attached to it? When they release the full hardback it will be Pathfinder RPG.
Maybe at some later date they can release an updated version and have to deal with this.
I really like what Monte Cook did with Arcana Unearthed and Arcana Evolved.
-- Dennis
My very personal vote is to have it called
"P-DnD" As for Pathfinder version dungeons and Dragons. This is the unofficial name though. The official probably should be PRPG
I think that what Paizo is doing is so great that it shouldn't get stuck with a naming convention taken from *another* game...
When Pathfinder RPG is released it should be Pathfinder RPG, compatible with OGL3.5.
If after that a new version comes out, it should be PFRPG 2.0 or PFRPG 1.5... hehe
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I'll tell you what Pathfinder RPG is.... It's freaking awesome that what. They could call it "Care Bears and the Mountain Hold of the Whispering Tyrant" and it wouldn't matter an iota. This game is going to ROCK!!!! The alpha has me absolutely giddy about what the mega awesome folks at Paizo got in store for us.
I've said it before and will say it again. WotC owns D&D's name, but Paizo are the caretakers of it's soul. Huzzah to Paizo, the best company in the gaming business!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'll tell you what Pathfinder RPG is.... It's freaking awesome that what. They could call it "Care Bears and the Mountain Hold of the Whispering Tyrant" and it wouldn't matter an iota. *snip*
I'd pay good money to see The Care Bears take on the Whispering Tyrant. The word "bloodbath" comes to mind.
I like to call it 3P. :)
I call it "Susan."
It's clearly "Delvings & Denizens Fourth Edition", or "De&De 4e".
All official press material refer to the rpg as derived from the 3.5 SRD via the OGL. There's nothing in print about "3.75" or "3.99". Why can't one refer to similar systems like Malhavoc's Arcana Unearthed or True20 as "3.75"? Same with the Conan RPG by Mongoose Press.
I say Pathfinder deserves the inofficial title 3.75 more than True20, Arcana Evolved, or Conan because Pathfinder is still basically 3.5, with the races and basic premises of 3.5, and of course tweaks.
Arcane Evolved did other races, other classes, changed a lot of other stuff I think (spells that can be "undercast", for example).
True20 is even more extreme: It has a different way to handle ability scores, there's only 3 classes with all customising being done with feats, no HP....
Conan... I don't know much about it, except that it is about Conan('s world), obviously. I guess there are a lot of assumptions there that make it more suited to Conan's world and less for a more generic one.
All those games are alternatives to 3.5. Pathfinder is meant as a replacement. That's why the name D&D 3.75e fits it better than the other games.
Not that I'm bashing those.
My very personal vote is to have it called
"P-DnD" As for Pathfinder version dungeons and Dragons. This is the unofficial name though. The official probably should be PRPG
I like that p-dnd sounds catchy and I hope it does catch on as an unofficial name. It certainly would be easier to remember for folk. Of course if it gets too popular i guarantee you hasbro will start slapping sites with cease and desist orders.
I never noticed that in the writing, honestly, but that's how I was pitching it to my players. Maybe my subconscious is doing all the work. Makes sense to me though. 4e simply isn't really D&D... it's so far off base it's something else. I'm not saying that's good or bad, and I'll try it out, but we may very well go with Pathfinder as it's closer to the "real thing" in my opinion. Funny how that works out, and AWESOME job Paizo!
*back to figuring out how to change my dang profile name* (SCORE!)
"P-DnD"
Sounds like a rapper or something. "Yo, I'm P-Dindi, what's up in da house-rulez"?
Sounds like a rapper or something. "Yo, I'm P-Dindi, what's up in da house-rulez"?
"P-DnD"
lolz, nah I don't listen to "rap" so I wouldn't know.
I just like it because it is like saying Paizo or Pathfinder version Dungeons and Dragons. When you speak about dungeons and dragons you usually end up saying the edition first, such as ADnD or 3rd ed. dnd. That is at least how my friends and I say it.
I like that p-dnd sounds catchy and I hope it does catch on as an unofficial name. It certainly would be easier to remember for folk. Of course if it gets too popular i guarantee you hasbro will start slapping sites with cease and desist orders.My very personal vote is to have it called
"P-DnD" As for Pathfinder version dungeons and Dragons. This is the unofficial name though. The official probably should be PRPG
LOL yeah, just companies can't refer to it as P-DnD, hazbro cant do anything about slang in community.
I don't listen to "rap" so I wouldn't know.
Neither do I, but one does pick up things sometimes.
We could find a musically inspired name. Dungeons and Dragons is fantasy gothic or something, with the S&M parts and magical creatures. Let's make PD&D the Metal D&D. Slayers and Spellslingers or something. :D
Let's make PD&D the Metal D&D. Slayers and Spellslingers or something. :D
Metal? :D Bards are metal!
Bards & Balrogs ;)
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There ain't enough D's in this game for the lot of us!
LOL, very funny. The funny because it's true type of funny.
All official press material refer to the rpg as derived from the 3.5 SRD via the OGL. There's nothing in print about "3.75" or "3.99". Why can't one refer to similar systems like Malhavoc's Arcana Unearthed or True20 as "3.75"? Same with the Conan RPG by Mongoose Press.
Is such a title system real? Or fan-based? Many of the PfRPG changes far exceed anything WotC did when it updated 3.0 to 3.5.
Joela, enjoy this moment. What I mean by this is that I think you are seeing what Pop Culture people refer to as "a life of its own".
As the whole Wizards fiasco began to play out in a way that was very bad for 3PP, Paizo annouces its intention on going with OGL 3.5 and improving it. We may never know who said 3.75 or 3.X first but I suspect it was a 3rd edition naysayer who thought this was just a bad move on Paizo part. You see at the time 4th supporters not only attack anyone who wanted to stick to 3rd, but they also said with venom "take care of your old books then" well now we don't have to take care of a dead system, Paizo is going to improve it.
Well at some point Paizo fans and supporters took the term 3.75 and made it our own. Eventually it became 3P. It just happaned beause it had a life of its own.
As for other publications well all of which can be said to have been too soon for the title, but I think in the long run its not unfair to say they are all 3.X of a sort.
Examples:
Conan RPG: In many ways just a setting for 3rd with a lot of house rules because of the low magic and very harsh combat. But it wouldn't be a lot of trouble converting. And I think if Mongoose sticks with it can become the defult 3.X game for low magic.
True20 RPG: 3rd lite? It fits, but what is nice about it is that for a DM who wants to put something together fast it works well.
Arcana Evolved: I almost see this as an experiment of what if D&D was created without real world mytholgy to back it up so much. In any case the system is well done but with little support.
I would add.
WOW RPG: I think they made the intended swicth away form being dependent on D20 a long time ago. The game is the same but with slightly differing terms. Along with taking some ideas form Arcana Evolved.
Iron Heros: Trying to do what Conan already has done, though I like a lot of features to this system.
Midnight RPG: Huh? this isn't a new rule set! No not yet, but with everything going on at Wizards I doubt very much if FFG would want to lose this setting and go 4th. Moreover if the rumors of a movie are ture they may not want to lose some fans by making a whole new system. So I can see Midnight becoming another 3.X core rulebook.
As a side note I think Wizards wants this, they think that by having every little company divided up with there own subset system, that they will destroy them. However they are missing one small detail, the work needed to take one setting/system to another isn't as much as say, WoD to Rifts, its actually very easy.
Moreover with the timing of Pathfinder annoucement (see above) I can see Pathfinder becoming the center of such a community. Not industry leader and not taking out Hasbro, but rather as people saying Okay where does this system come from, and getting the answer Pathfinder, not D&D.
So like I said, enjoy it, you don't see things take on a life of its own often. Last one for me was when my Goddaughter made me read a fantasy story for her and I said. "Huh, you'know this Harry Potter guy might just have some legs to him" :)
P.S. Long Live Pathfinder!
I say we call it 3P:
Pathfinder's Pleased Players
Wow. That's truly inspired. I'm sticking with 3P.
I was just thinking, 8 years ago Wizards came out with 3rd and D20 and said "This will be One System to rule them all!" I chuckled with "One system to rule them all huh? You know how that ended." even though I like the system.
Now look:
Pathfinder
Conan
Arcana Evolved
Iron Heros
World of WarCraft
Midnight
etc.
etc.
Well I Wizards got there wish, the bitter irony is its not 4th ed.
The sad part is we can no longer include D&D settings.
How did this thread pass me by? Oh well.
For my money, Pathfinder IS Fourth Edition. Kenzer & Co said that Hackmaster is called 3rd Ed in another universe. That's how I feel about Pathfinder. Pathfinder RPG is the true successor to 3.x. For that matter, I feel that OSRIC will be the true successor to 1E (albiet a little late, but still). 4E will have its own true successor once 5E comes out. Who knows, maybe some company that doesn't exist yet will lead the way on it.
If the Whispering Tyrant is so bad and scary and all that, then why is he whispering?
He's the scary type of whisperer. Shouting's for amateurs.
In my mind 3.75 is accurate enough for a few reasons:
1. It isn't trying to completely reinvent the system like True20.
2. The changes being made seem to be intended to improve game play while continuing in a logical progression that goes from 3.0 to Pathfinder.
3. Monte's involvement.
4. Because call it what you want, it certainly ain't 4th edition (be that good or bad depends entirely upon you and your personal likes and dislikes).
5. Some intended snark towards WotC (again just an observation, no snark intended on my part).
While D20 is open the term "Dungeons and Dragons" or any derivative would be definite trademark infringement. The creators call it simply "Pathfinder" and that works for me.My very personal vote is to have it called
"P-DnD" As for Pathfinder version dungeons and Dragons. This is the unofficial name though. The official probably should be PRPG
Its good for you to call it Pathfinder. But I think you missed my statment PDnD was my name for the official unofficial name for the very reasons you stated.