Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
So rituals in 4e are a neat idea, though not entirely necessary for Pathfinder, given that you are not throwing out the whole spellbook like 4e has done.
But one balancing factor rituals do have is their long cast times keep certain spells from being used as quick fix-its and plot-busters. For example, by having 'discern lies' or 'detect alignment' type spells have a 10 minute casting time, it keeps players from easily circumventing mysteries and other plot elements, and most importantly, the need for use of interpersonal skills. Instead it becomes more of an interrogation spell for captured enemies.
So, my suggestion is, dig through the spell lists, find spells like this and give them long casting times. Problem solved without too much fuss.
In fact, aren't the incantations in with the Unearthed Arcana stuff that's in the SRD?
Darkjoy wrote: 3.5 has incantations. Here you go.
Erithtotl wrote: So, my suggestion is, dig through the spell lists, find spells like this and give them long casting times. No. Wizards were designed to be bad-arsed at higher levels because they were so boned at the lower ones. They want to be able to Gate powerful outsiders while the now secondary fighters mops up the attacking ogres.
Erithtotl wrote: Problem solved without too much fuss. Speak for yourself. Read the PfRPG boards of DMs who don't want to be bothered adjusting 3.x/OGL sorcerer/wizards' hitpoints to the PfRPG system (e.g., "I don't want to add that additional HP per level/HD!").
joela wrote: Darkjoy wrote: 3.5 has incantations. Here you go.
Or you can check my profile to get a few more.
joela wrote:
No. Wizards were designed to be bad-arsed at higher levels because they were so boned at the lower ones. They want to be able to Gate powerful outsiders while the now secondary fighters mops up the attacking ogres.
And this is a really bad design choice because...
I wrote: Uneven progressions suck. There are two common sides of the coin here. There's toploading, and there's the "suck now, but own later" mentality. Both of these ideas generally suck. Toploading is bad because it means that most of your class's progression is actually useless (for instance, the Swashbuckler is often considered a 3-level long class. The other 17 levels are wasted). And "pay for it now for power later" and similar such uneven progressions *really* don't actually work that way in play. Sure, many PrCed up gish builds will be pretty lame at low level, and killer at higher level, but the reality is that most campaigns aren't actually played from levels 1-20. They'll be more like "5-12" or "1-14" or "12-18" or whatever. So that "evening out cost and benefit over levels" doesn't really exist. Making a class good at one level and crappy at another is a bad thing. Ideally, a class progression should be as even as possible and a class should contribute to the party in a level-appropriate way at *every* level. No more, no less. It doesn't actually have to be perfect... but it should be a fairly even progression of cool class features.
I think this honorable Crane puts it fairly well here.
DaidojiTaidoru Quote:
I would also note that Wizards certainly are *not* boned at low levels. They're just not *as* amazingly good as they are later, and it takes a bit more thought to make them run the show.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
There's a big obssession with 'balance' in 4e. I don't really care so much about balance. But I don't think that it should be so easy for spellcasters to actually be BETTER at the things other classes are supposed to be good at with little or no effort.
Spells like Knock, or Discern Lies, or Know Alignment take away from certain core class abilities and skill choices. I'm all for the Wizard being badass at 15th level, but it shouldn't be badass at absolutely everything.
Darkjoy wrote: joela wrote: Darkjoy wrote: 3.5 has incantations. Here you go.
Or you can check my profile to get a few more.
There are also several included in the d20 Modern SRD (which also has proto- rules for Healing Surges, aka Second Wind.)
Erithtotl wrote: There's a big obssession with 'balance' in 4e. And for all that that's said, 4e is NOT balanced. Not even close. Just take a look at the CharOp boards already.
For all their claims of balance, all they did in many places was gut out a lot of the game, restrict your options, and dumb the game down *without any good reason.* And still end up with an unbalanced game.
Anyways, that said, balance is an important design goal, but one should not lose sight of other aspects of good game design in its pursuit. It's one thing to balance two choices against each other. It's another to say "hey, why bother balancing these two choices against each other? Let's just axe one of the choices. Problem solved."
It occurs to me that there are what could be considered examples of non magic using characters using 'rituals' in fiction- in the 1999 film The Mummy for example, where Imhotep is called up and ultimately dispatched again by such means- although they are often cast/read from books/tomes/grimoires that might be considered minor artifacts (or certainly magic items) in their own right.
That said, I'm not sure to what extent such a mechanic would fit the flavour of the Pathfinder RPG.
I had long ago considered making a magic system that was entirely based on the idea that "anyone can cast magic". Basically, you simply needed to research or "decipher" the right actions that will cast the spell, and then perform them, and it would happen.
No inherent magical ability, no "spell slots" or class feature of spellcasting ability.
All you'd need is decent skill ranks/scores in a few things like Decipher Script, Research, Knowledge, Language (you needed to know and be capable of speaking the language involved, etc, etc).
In this game the classes were just "combat ability" focused, or "skills focused"... no "magic-user" segregation.
...
Now, this wouldn't work at all with Pathfinder. But it was something I always wanted to try running. Maybe one of these days I'll get around to flushing out the rules for this.
I've been thinking of running a Thief universe type game, and this kind of magic might be the best approach.
Incantations are a great way to introduce uber-powerful spells tailor made to fix that pesky world destroying demon rampaging across Golarion.
All PCs get to be part of binding the demon, not just a couple. This means that the entire party gets the pride of the job well done, not just one maybe two with a few supporting side kicks.
It is also a great way to introduce balance breaking powers with limits that prevent it from being abused.
it is certainly not for every game or adventure. But used sparingly would be a fantastic addition to Pathfinder.
I'm actually for extending the casting time of a lot of spells, the instant gratification route of WotC meant that spellcasters got to be way over the top and having fewer standard action spells would balance them easily, the problem is that then players will wind up taking splat book spells with unchanged duration in place of core spells to keep pawning in single rounds.
Hey Kaisoku! Take a look at the magic mechanics for d20 Call of Cthulu sometime... it's perilously similar to your methodology for spellcasting, and, while it would definitely need retooling some to build your idea, is a good starting place.
Also check out Urban Arcana for d20 Modern. A few mid-level spells exist there as incantations.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
lastknightleft wrote: I'm actually for extending the casting time of a lot of spells, the instant gratification route of WotC meant that spellcasters got to be way over the top and having fewer standard action spells would balance them easily, the problem is that then players will wind up taking splat book spells with unchanged duration in place of core spells to keep pawning in single rounds. Maybe I didn't explain my point very well, but you are one of the only people who seemed to get what I was driving at.
My point was not 'lets add Rituals to Pathfinder'. It was 'lets increase the casting time on certain spells to keep them being used as an easy replacement for skills or other classes'.
Some other spells could have their durations decreased. An example would be Spider Climb. If Spider Climb was a minute/lvl instead of 10 minutes/lvl, it would not totally remove the need for someone to have climbing skill like it does now. Perhaps make it a 1st level spell to balance it.
Charles Evans 25 wrote: It occurs to me that there are what could be considered examples of non magic using characters using 'rituals' in fiction- in the 1999 film The Mummy for example, where Imhotep is called up and ultimately dispatched again by such means- although they are often cast/read from books/tomes/grimoires that might be considered minor artifacts (or certainly magic items) in their own right.
That said, I'm not sure to what extent such a mechanic would fit the flavour of the Pathfinder RPG.
Oh, it would most certainly be a fantastic addition to the "flavour" of the Pathfinder setting, what with the Lovecraftian stuff and all. In fact, I would probably come up with such ritual rules even if the guys at Paizo would not anchor them within the final rules. Chelaxians binding devils to their service, hidden cults in Absalom striving to re-awaken ancient horrors, splinter factions of certain deities prying into the truth behind Aroden's death, religious merchants of Abadar drawing a circle to bless important business ventures...
I think that the addition of some form of Ritual Magic as a counterweight to magic items and one-round spells will almost definitely improve the depth and playability of the Pathfinder RPG and add to the versimilitude of the background setting.
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