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In the design focus thread, Jason asked everyone to comment on any spells they think need to be modified for the beta that haven't been covered in the alpha. I along with a few others all pointed out that the Gate spell needs some sort of modification. Jason requested that we not comment on each others ideas in the design focus thread, so I wanted to create a think tank thread where we can talk about each others ideas and try to come up with a good compromise. No flaming please and lets try to find some ideas we can share with Jason that make the spell more functional. I will comment on my ideas in a post a bit later, but I wanted to get the thread started for those who would like to comment. Lastly, Jason if you are reading and have some ideas of your own for how you want a spell like Gate to work in Pathfinder, please share them to help guide our brainstorming.
For the calling version of Gate -- you can open a gate to any specific individual. Whether they pass through the gate is up to them, and you have no control over them once they pass through the gate. If you want to summon and control a monster, use Summon Monster IX. Easy enough.
For Planar Binding (and to a lesser extent, Planar Ally)...let me think about it. It should be possible to use, but not so easy that you can get a bunch of outsiders with crazy SLAs to work for you for free.
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For the calling version of Gate -- you can open a gate to any specific individual. Whether they pass through the gate is up to them, and you have no control over them once they pass through the gate. If you want to summon and control a monster, use Summon Monster IX. Easy enough.
For Planar Binding (and to a lesser extent, Planar Ally)...let me think about it. It should be possible to use, but not so easy that you can get a bunch of outsiders with crazy SLAs to work for you for free.
I tend to think that the biggest problem with Gate isn't so much that you get powerful creatures so much as it is you get automatic control for 17-20 rounds. I also don't think the big problem is summoning something powerful to aid in battle. I think its the spells and spell like abilities that some of these creatures have that let the summoner bypass restrictions like XP costs, spells on another class's list (like summoning a Solar to get cleric spells at 20th caster level), and things like Wish spells without having to pay the component/XP cost. At another level, I want a Wizard to be able to summon something like say a Planetar to try to bargain with it for a high level cleric spell if that is the only way the party has to get one (if they don't have a divine caster for example). The thing is that I think those things NEED to be bargained for and not automatically granted.
Perhaps one solution would be to limit the CR of the creatures that can be affected by this spell. That said, I want my high level wizard players to be able to summon and gain the aid of powerful creatures. What if the Gate spell only allowed a summoner to call a creature with a CR equal to his caster level minus 3. So at 17th level you could call a CR 14 creature and at 20th you could call a CR 17 creature? I personally feel that Gate is the capstone spell if you are a summoner so I don't want to completely nerf it. That said, it is overpowered compared to other 9th level spells. In fact I would argue that in 3.5 it was the 2nd most powerful spell in the game behind Wish and Miracle (which I think were equally powerful). If the mechanic for Gate worked like Planar Binding but just allowed larger Hit Dice to be called that might do the trick, but then you are faced with trying to succeed on an opposed Charisma check against CR 20 and greater creatures which will often not succeed for a Wizard (though the Sorcerer has a better time of it). Another option might be to make the cost of the spell prohibitive to use for just any situation. For example, the spell requires 5000 xp in 3.5 to use to call a creature that automatically obeys. If you made that say a 25,000 gp material component that is consumed in the casting, then not many casters even at 20th level can afford to throw around that type of gold to call powerful creatures regularly.
Anyway, those are just some opening thoughts. I think there has to be a compromise between making this spell just like Summon Monster IX (which I think is underpowered severely at 17th-20th level) or making it the best spell in the game.
I tend to think that the biggest problem with Gate isn't so much that you get powerful creatures so much as it is you get automatic control for 17-20 rounds. I also don't think the big problem is summoning something powerful to aid in battle. I think its the spells and spell like abilities that some of these creatures have that let the summoner bypass restrictions like XP costs, spells on another class's list (like summoning a Solar to get cleric spells at 20th caster level), and things like Wish spells without having to pay the component/XP cost. At another level, I want a Wizard to be able to summon something like say a Planetar to try to bargain with it for a high level cleric spell if that is the only way the party has to get one (if they don't have a divine caster for example). The thing is that I think those things NEED to be bargained for and not automatically granted.
Agreed. I think my proposed change does exactly that; you open the Gate, plead with the planetar, and he makes his decision whether to help you or not. You can even try calling a solar or an arch-devil...if you dare.
I feel very comfortable having the calling feature of Gate be adjudicated by the DM, not by some arbitrary CR/HD/ECL limit.
P.S. As is, the calling feature of Gate costs 1000 xp, not 5000.
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I tend to think that the biggest problem with Gate isn't so much that you get powerful creatures so much as it is you get automatic control for 17-20 rounds. I also don't think the big problem is summoning something powerful to aid in battle. I think its the spells and spell like abilities that some of these creatures have that let the summoner bypass restrictions like XP costs, spells on another class's list (like summoning a Solar to get cleric spells at 20th caster level), and things like Wish spells without having to pay the component/XP cost. At another level, I want a Wizard to be able to summon something like say a Planetar to try to bargain with it for a high level cleric spell if that is the only way the party has to get one (if they don't have a divine caster for example). The thing is that I think those things NEED to be bargained for and not automatically granted.Agreed. I think my proposed change does exactly that; you open the Gate, plead with the planetar, and he makes his decision whether to help you or not. You can even try calling a solar or an arch-devil...if you dare.
I feel very comfortable having the calling feature of Gate be adjudicated by the DM, not by some arbitrary CR/HD/ECL limit.
P.S. As is, the calling feature of Gate costs 1000 xp, not 5000.
Ahhh, my bad on that. Was trying to quote that from memory as I don't have my books handy. I do disagree with you about having the spells effect arbitrated strictly at the DM's whims though. One of the biggest improvements to 3e over previous iterations of the game is that outcomes of spells like Wish and Gate became arbitrated by a defined mechanic instead of DM fiat. The problem with having the DM adjucate things is that many of them will refuse to allow the character access to resources as a way to make it harder for the PC's to defeat the obstacles they come up with. Heck, I remember in 2nd edition that I had a DM who didn't like Wizards to be able to do so much damage with a spell and so made it such that I never found any damage dealing spells. Since there wasn't a mechanic where Wizards automatically got a certain number of spells when they leveled, I ended up with a 7th level wizard whose strongest offensive magic was 2nd level.
Anyway, my point is that I want Gate to have a mechanic in place that defines what type of creatures can be called and exactly what the player has to do to control them. If all we want to do is have the DM's decide what creatures will and won't help, then individual DM's can house rule it that way and say they decide if the caster wasted his Gate spell on a creature that won't aid him. I think in the core system every component of the game that defines how mechanics work as "however the DM wants" makes the game less fun. Its just my opinion, but I want players to have control over what their characters do instead of casting their favorite spell only to wait to see if the DM will let it work or not.
I think a better solution is to give the called creature a saving throw to resist the summons or to have it demand a restrictive payment for the use of abilities that have costly components if the PC did them. Or alternatively, just reduce the power of the creatures that can be automatically controlled. Regardless of what is done, I think it has to be a clear mechanic that gives the player the chance to actually have it work without just relying on if the DM wants them to have summoned help in the battle with the BBEG the DM spent 3 weeks coming up with. Its too easy to the DM to overule just to not have to deal with it and that makes the spell a completely suboptimal choice as players would likely pick something that has a more reliable effect that the DM can't just "take away".
Regardless of what is done, I think it has to be a clear mechanic that gives the player the chance to actually have it work without just relying on if the DM wants them to have summoned help in the battle with the BBEG the DM spent 3 weeks coming up with. Its too easy to the DM to overule just to not have to deal with it and that makes the spell a completely suboptimal choice as players would likely pick something that has a more reliable effect that the DM can't just "take away".
I agree in general...but personally I would like to see the calling feature of Gate as a "Hail Mary" play, like the "DM's discretion" bits of Wish and Miracle (and Limited Wish, to a lesser extent). Those are all spells that have a "safe" use, but where you can gamble for more.
The non-calling use of Gate can stay just the way it is -- the ultimate teleport/plane shift spell.
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Regardless of what is done, I think it has to be a clear mechanic that gives the player the chance to actually have it work without just relying on if the DM wants them to have summoned help in the battle with the BBEG the DM spent 3 weeks coming up with. Its too easy to the DM to overule just to not have to deal with it and that makes the spell a completely suboptimal choice as players would likely pick something that has a more reliable effect that the DM can't just "take away".I agree in general...but personally I would like to see the calling feature of Gate as a "Hail Mary" play, like the "DM's discretion" bits of Wish and Miracle (and Limited Wish, to a lesser extent). Those are all spells that have a "safe" use, but where you can gamble for more.
The non-calling use of Gate can stay just the way it is -- the ultimate teleport/plane shift spell.
I spent some more time thinking about this last night. I reread my PHB to refresh my memory on Gate and had a few other thoughts. The text of Gate states that Gate can be used in the same way as Planar Binding. That would seem to imply that there is an intent in the rules for bargaining to be a component of the services gained from a creature called by this spell. The second thing that stood out to me is that the specific example given for the automatic control feature was the creature fighting for you in one battle. I think that implies the spirit of that aspect of Gate was intended to allow you to summon the "big guns" to help in battle without needing the time for a lengthy negotiation. So that said, I think I have an idea for an even simpler fix.
The real problem with Gate in my opinion is the spells that the called creatures can cast that allow the summoner to bypass costly components and XP costs. Having a creature fight in a battle is not that unbalancing IMO. So what if they left the spell the way it is and just added a line that said, "If the service you require from the called creature is to fight with you in a single battle, then you can force the creature to automatically comply by sacrificing a 25,000 gp gem. Doing so compels the called creature to fight for the caster for 1 round per caster level. At the conclusion of the battle, the creature automatically returns to its home plane. If the caster desires any other service from the called creature, he must bargain with it as per the rules for Planar Binding. If used in that way, Gate can only call a creature or creatures up to 24 HD (I chose 24 because it is the next natural progression from Greater Planar Binding which can call 18 HD)".