This is about a recently converted bard, but really it is about the Linguistic skill.
Fidan the bard has always been interested in ancient scriptures, so his PRPG conversion included a full compliment of Linguistic ranks.
He wanted the skill for the "decipher writing" effect, and got a ton of languages as a bonus. He is 9th level and his character knows a total of 13 languages! And he learned 8 of them in less than a year.
I'd like to file a bug report please.
This is about a recently converted bard, but really it is about the Linguistic skill.
Fidan the bard has always been interested in ancient scriptures, so his PRPG conversion included a full compliment of Linguistic ranks.
He wanted the skill for the "decipher writing" effect, and got a ton of languages as a bonus. He is 9th level and his character knows a total of 13 languages! And he learned 8 of them in less than a year.
I'd like to file a bug report please.
Have you ever studied multiple languages? The more you know, the more everything seems the same. Every languages has its quirks, mind you, but they all pretty much operate in the same way.
My wife, by virtue of speaking Romanian, also understands French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and Latin. Grant it, these languages are all related, making the transition from one to the other quite easy, but it just illustrates the point that someone who is dedicated to languages can quickly pick things up.
Having studied Greek, it is very easy to see how languages that bump into each other affect each other. Greek is everywhere and words from all kinds of languages have made their way into Greek.
Thus, in a fantasy world where all the various races are in constant contact, each language is going to adapt and take on characteristics of other languages. Thus, the ability to decipher script — you find the similarities and take an educated guess.
The only reason to be concerned is if you have languages that are isolated. Then you can simply rule that without contact, these languages are off limits.
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This is about a recently converted bard, but really it is about the Linguistic skill.
Fidan the bard has always been interested in ancient scriptures, so his PRPG conversion included a full compliment of Linguistic ranks.
He wanted the skill for the "decipher writing" effect, and got a ton of languages as a bonus. He is 9th level and his character knows a total of 13 languages! And he learned 8 of them in less than a year.
I'd like to file a bug report please.
Have you ever studied multiple languages? The more you know, the more everything seems the same. Every languages has its quirks, mind you, but they all pretty much operate in the same way.
My wife, by virtue of speaking Romanian, also understands French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and Latin. Grant it, these languages are all related, making the transition from one to the other quite easy, but it just illustrates the point that someone who is dedicated to languages can quickly pick things up.
Having studied Greek, it is very easy to see how languages that bump into each other affect each other. Greek is everywhere and words from all kinds of languages have made their way into Greek.
Thus, in a fantasy world where all the various races are in constant contact, each language is going to adapt and take on characteristics of other languages. Thus, the ability to decipher script — you find the similarities and take an educated guess.
The only reason to be concerned is if you have languages that are isolated. Then you can simply rule that without contact, these languages are off limits.
I agree with you. Spreading out the skill on this doesn't make sense.
Speak Language was 1 point per language in 3.5 anyways. The only reason that 2 points per is so well known is that bards were the only one who had it as a class skill and could really take advantage of it. I vote to leave it as written in A3.
The more languages you know, the easier it is to learn more.
I like the learn one language per skill rank spent.
I don't know of many (if any) that would spend multiple skill points before getting another language. The suggestion of one per two or three ranks, well, that would leave you with 7 to 10 languages (plus int), for a full 20 skill ranks spent. I know people at the age of 10 that know 6 and 7 languages, and my daughters speak 3 languages now, with the oldest being 4 and a half.
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Personally, I'm up for the 2 ranks = 1 new language (read/write and speak). This remains consistent with the Read/Write and Speak Language Skills.
The problem is that linguistics isn't just learning a new language. It also serves as a skill for skill check purposes, be it to decipher script and forgery.
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1 rank = 1 language is totally unrealistic, even in a multilingual environment and regardless of how closely related languages are. Come on, I speak Spanish and can understand a bit of Italian and Portuguese, plus a few words of French and dash of Tagalog, but I'm hardly "fluent" in all of them.
But I'm willing to accept this as the most workable system for a fantasy game. In the core rules at least.
In my skills-heavy home rules, each language would be a separate skill. Characters would start with ranks = Int in their native language. Bilingual (a feat) characters would start with Int ranks in two languages. Speaking/conversation = DC 5, reading/writing = DC 10, academic reading writing = DC 15 or 20, etc.
In the streamlined version I use with middle school students, languages = feats. Characters start with 1 + Int bonus languages and can add more as feats.
In both systems Decipher Script become Knowledge (linguistics), used to identify languages, decipher unknown writing, get the gist of conversations in unknown languages, create and crack codes, etc.
What about 1 ranks gets you a basic (tourist/trader) understanding of a language and 2 ranks gets you fluency?
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What about 1 ranks gets you a basic (tourist/trader) understanding of a language and 2 ranks gets you fluency?
I'd say totally logical as a house rule, kinda' like the 1 rank = speak it, 2 ranks = read/write it (or 1 rank = basic speaking, 2 = fluent speaking, 3 = read/write).
But as soon as you start differentiating the cost of skills or what one rank buys versus two, you're adding a layer of complexity that Pathfinder has thus far tried to reduce (c.f., no synergy, no cross-class skills, etc.). What you and others have proposed are great ideas but I just don't see it as part of the official rules.
If one really wants to get something into the rules, I'd say a more fruitful tact would be to look at sub-systems. The skill points system seems pretty much done. But what about skill tricks? Or knacks? Could you work languages in there? Take one of your skill points, and instead of buying a rank of Linguistics, you buy a spoken language. For another point you get to read/write that language. Almost the same effect but it doesn't mess with the way skill ranks are bought or what they represent.
Or come up with a scale. Linguistics 5 = 1 new language, linguistics 10 = another new language, and so on at 15 and 20. This wouldn't make the oral/written distinction but it would slow language acquisition a little and not mess with what ranks represent.
Just some more ideas...
How many people actually put skill points into linguistics?
I don't think very many do, so why try and nerf the skill even more, making it even less appealing?
If you say that you only get a new language every 2, 3 or 5 levels, then what would the point be? It would be easier, cheaper, to just get a some sort of magic item that gives you comprehend languages.
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The OP's question and the example of the bard with 13 languages just demonstrates that the system can be pushed to some pretty extreme limits. A 20th level character could easily speak 20 languages, and fairly cheaply.
Some folks just want a more reasonable system. Besides, at that point, what 20 languages is she gonna' take? In a world with a common human tongue you're going to learn every humanoid and monstrous humanoid language and be well into the outer planes.
I guess it probably comes down to how important language is in your campaign. If you view language as important and a the lack of language as a potential problem to be solved, then speaking 13-20 languages trivializes it. But is you view different language as a minor part of the story you're telling, or disregard it completely, then 13-20 languages is fine. I tend to fall in the first camp, but I don't expect everyone to agree so I'm fine house ruling the way I think languages should work.
Also depends on how much you use "common".
In RoRL, one char in my campaign speaks Abyssal, Common (Taldane), Draconic, Goblin, Halfling, Infernal, Shoanti, Varisian.
His background is that he is from Korvosa, and was involved in some illegal activity, ah, that is liberating some items of worth, especially magical worth.
He has already asked the local sage to learn Thassilonian and Ameiko to learn Tien.
So, there are 4 human languages right there, and most likely more to learn as the party travels.
There are 20 standard languages put forth in the 3.5 PHB and assumedly in PRPG, 19 if you leave out Druidic. Give that an average character starts with between 2 and 5 languages based on race and intelligence, you could learn every single one of them by 15 level. This still leaves said character at a loss considering all the other languages put forth in the Wizards accessory books alone. Drow sign language, the Raptoran Language Tuilvilanuue, Gutterspeak, Illumian, the Goliath Gol-kaa, not to mention any number of other monster, campaign, or setting specific languages.
Granted, you don't have to use them in your campaign but Paizo must consider the fact that they exist when making the PRPG system.
I do find it a bit humorous that the original complaint is about a *Bard* learning all these languages, when they were the one class that could learn just as fast as the complaints are being made about.
Mind you, I felt about the same way actually. However so few people really put points into Decipher Script and Forgery that actually got used, in my experience, that lumping them all together is no problem.
The only issue with 1 language per point is that the class skill bonus has no affect (and probably shouldn't grant 3 more languages).
Not sure if this helps people, but perhaps being based on the same alphabet connotes similarity: 6 languages have a dwarven alphabet, 4 more have an elven alphabet, 3 for Common and Draconic, and 2 for Infernal.
Cheers!
I honestly don't see why speaking that many languages is a problem. As someone said, how many characters actually use the skill anyway? And, FWIW, in 3.0 I built a character who spoke 14 languages at 6th level. She was half-elven bard (2 racial) with an 18 INT (4 more) and max ranks in Speak Language (9) because I thought it was a cool idea that she could go anywhere she wanted and speak to anyone--especially since she was focused on storytelling, which is very language dependent. Was it game breaking? No. It just meant the party, which was in a setting without Common, could talk to anyone they met. (Also, she wouldn't be able to pull that off in Pathfinder--it would take til 9th level to do it.)
Do I think everyone should be able to do this? No, of course not. But it makes sense that someone who studies text enough to decipher script would know languages also. (Maybe they've got a terrible accent from only seeing it written--that would be a fun roleplaying concept to go with!)
And since someone above made real world comparisons, let me make one too. I had a friend in college who one semester took Spanish, Russian, German, Chinese, and Italian. I bet you he could get somewhere on Decipher Script checks. And let's not even talk about translators at the UN....
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In RoRL, one char in my campaign speaks Abyssal, Common (Taldane), Draconic, Goblin, Halfling, Infernal, Shoanti, Varisian... He has already asked the local sage to learn Thassilonian and Ameiko to learn Tien... there are 4 human languages already ...
If this works for you all, great. But this would make me crazy. I'm not sure what level he is but in a quasi-Medieval setting he already speaks the equivalent Latin, Native American, and Gypsy/Romani, plus the language of the halfling slave race, the uncivilized goblin scum, and the languages of dragon, demons and devils. All he needs is Celestial and he's got the multiverse pretty much covered. And he's about to 'pick up' Japanese and an extinct form of Linear B Greek via tutors. Plus I bet he knows how to swing a sword and maybe cast a spell or two.
I mean it, if this works for you, more power to you. To me this is a perfect example of how crazy the current system can get.
In RoRL, one char in my campaign speaks Abyssal, Common (Taldane), Draconic, Goblin, Halfling, Infernal, Shoanti, Varisian... He has already asked the local sage to learn Thassilonian and Ameiko to learn Tien... there are 4 human languages already ...If this works for you all, great.
I mean it, if this works for you, more power to you. To me this is a perfect example of how crazy the current system can get.
He is a second level fighter, with 18 intelligence, with Heavy Crossbow as his weapon of choice.
Part of his build, is to be a fluent in a lot of languages. He expects to travel a lot.
I have grown up speaking two languages, learned 2 more when I was younger (lost most of them, thru none use) and have also learned sign language (need to keep practising before I lose it again). So, people learning lots of languages are not unusual.
In North America, there is not a lot of languages used, mostly English, wtih French in Quebec and Spanish in California (and a few other southern states). In Europe, it is not uncommon for kids to speak 5 or 6 languages.
But if your more comfortable ruling that you only learn a language per 2 or 3 skill points, tis your game, and more power to you.
In my campaign, "Decipher Skill" was a critical skill many times -- and I made it clear at the first level, so two of my characters have pretty decent ranks in it. Forgery was also fairly useful.
Good to see that some people are making the most of several of the more neglected skills
It's not the same. Of course, in a combat-oriented campaign, when even the last orc butcher in the last, distant, stinky little hole speaks Common, speaking languages is not much of an issue. However, if you want to be a really convincing spy, you should be able to speak (and not just understand) the language of the enemy. Even when you are awaken at the middle of the night and you do not have time to put on your Tongues helmet or neckalce; even when the vizier of the King is using "Detect magic" on you and you have to remove your magical items. Etc.
Well, if the vizier is able to use Detect Magic on the characters, he should be able to determine that the amulet/necklace/etcc... only allows the character to be able to understand what is being said. With that, the characters should be able to keep it, even if they are required to leave behind their offensive magic items.
In more or less social skill oriented campaigns the choosing of the correct languages is almost like choosing appropriate feats for your fighter. The Speak Language skill (which was class-skill only for the Bard) alongside with the "one bonus language/bonus points of intelligence" rule created a fairly balanced situation. I increased the importance of the intelligent wizard at lower levels, and made journeys/adventures in foreign countries much more challenging and interesting.
I am not sure if you are saying that you agree that Lingguistics should be one language per level, or not.
And in a fantasy world, most languages are isolated from the others.
I beg to differ. Any world in which Half-Elves are a PC race means that Elves and Humans have enough contact that their languages will affect each other. Any world that has Half-Orcs as a PC race means the same for Humans and Orcs. Any world that gives Gnomes and Dwarves racial bonuses against Orcs, Goblinoids, and Reptilians means that those races interact enough that their languages will affect each other. Any world that allows Rangers the full range of favored enemies indicates that all of these various types of creatures interact with all the PC races to the extent that languages of all possible favored enemies will affect all the PC racial languages.
If anything, a typical fantasy world, as indicated by the core rules of PFRPG and the SRD, has languages that interact with each other on a much grander scale that has occurred in history.
This interaction generally happens through trade, diplomacy and war. All three have their incentives for learning other languages. For a real-world example of the last, Greeks DO NOT like the Turks. Yet, their language is full of turkish words.
So with a spell or two, a wizard can learn any language at any time- but you want to limit someone's ability to actually *learn* the languages via skill points?
I guess I just don't understand the problem. There is no big game breaking issues with a bard knowing alot of languages. Quite the contrary- they are the ones I would expect to learn alot of languages. (hard to sing to someone if they don't know the language, same for telling stories, learning stories, etc..).
More power to 'em. Let them learn the languages. There is no harm in it.
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my theory is that this bard is either intimidated by the fact that others could learn as much language as him...
which i suppose would be fairly easy for a mercenary (fighter) in easter europe or afrika, or a scholar (wizard) in Oxford, or a smuggler (rogue) in the mediterraneum. just how they learn it is a bit different...
i find not only interesting but right the fact in how other cultures interact with others via commerce/war/etc... which is pretty common even nowadays...
but for the others who believes the sistem is unrealistic... please please... do not speak of realism in a game where you can learn a different set of skills (including spells, secrete languages, extraordinary habilities, supernatural habilities) with just chosing a different class the next level...
and yes in my games its strange to have a character that knows more than the common a and a couple languages... but that is their decision... why cripple the one who goes for the "translator guy"?
and if you want in your "home" campaign make it that languages are an issue and make them issolated.. here are some ideas for home rules:
1) there is no "common" (always hated that.. but american movies made it famous.. even in the most distant planet someone knows english... duh!) that includes elven, dwarven, etc... exchange them for the language of their region... if their region is big enough to amerit their OWN language... good... but elves froma nother region would talk different... just like spanish and portuguese or italian...
2) characters only get the language of their region, and other if they actually buy the skill and have areason for it (have traveled, are merchants, smuggled something)
3) increase the cost of the skill or make it paulative.. first level cost 1, second level cost 2, third level cost 3, 4th 4, etc... (we are using this in a modern based game, my char is the only one who speak another language and she hasn't foudn too much use for it... but i like the background)
please note that someone WITHOUT some knowledge of another languages or obscure dialects would be UNEXPERIENCED and pretty much UNABLE to Descipher Scripts in other languages... because he can't understand 1 single word of what is said... ITS UNREALISTIC to asume... that because HE has Descipher Scripts HE can unravel de misteries of the old tomb, because he is good with words... even if he can even fathom what they mean in the first place...
so yeah I say 1 language per level of linguistics is fine... and no i don't let my chars descipher any kind of language they don't have any idea how... so yes... knowing which alphabets compose which languages is not only cool but useful :D
What about this as a compromise? You get one language for every two ranks you have in Linguistics, but can take an Expert Linguist feat to double that number of languages. That way, linguists in isolated regions can forgo the feat and not gain too many languages. Meanwhile, true polyglots can take the feat and go hog wild.
I would have no problem with the feat.
But, do not want to water down the skill.
So, in effect, with the feat, you would be getting two languages every level. :)
He wanted the skill for the "decipher writing" effect, and got a ton of languages as a bonus. He is 9th level and his character knows a total of 13 languages! And he learned 8 of them in less than a year.
Here's the error in your example: It's 9th level. At 9th level, every class is able to pull of feats beyond normal human capacity.
9th level Barbarian. 12 ranks of Climb, now has 18 (+4) Strength, for a final modifier of 12+4=+16. Taking 10, he gets a 26. He can now climb most mountains while raining, moving 40 feet every 6 seconds.
9th level Swashbuckler. 12 ranks of Jump, 12 (+1) Strength, +2 synergy from Tumble. His modifier is 12+1+2=+15. Taking 10 gets him a 25. The men's record is 29.3 feet, which his character could swing pretty easily if he so desired.
9th level Beguiler. 12 ranks in Disguise, 14 (+2) Charisma, with a disguise kit (+2). Total modifier is +16, taking 10 gets him a 26. He can disguise himself as a woman's human husband (+10 for intimate familiarity) as long as she has a Spot modifier of 6 or less.
So what are 13 languages? ^^
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But then, in my game I give bonus language skill points separate from class level skill points, (The PCs have a pool of 'non-adventuring' skill points they can spend on character-rounding skills like languages, Craft:cooking, Knowledge:art and the like that they'd never get otherwise. I also hand them out as freebies where appropriate - so if they spend a month in the cloudwall mountains playing with goblins & ogres they may learn Glot (the goblinoid lingua franca in my campaign) at pidgin- or rough-level for nothing, depending on how much interaction they did.
Awesome! But I imagine that something like this HAS to be a house rule. It's so judgment- and situation-dependent that I can't imagine codifying a set of rules to cover it.
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9th level Beguiler. 12 ranks in Disguise, 14 (+2) Charisma, with a disguise kit (+2). Total modifier is +16, taking 10 gets him a 26. He can disguise himself as a woman's human husband (+10 for intimate familiarity) as long as she has a Spot modifier of 6 or less.
9th level with a +2 charisma mod? He must only be disguising himself as a beguiler. Beguilers take their hotness seriously.
-Tarlane
1 rank = 1 language is totally unrealistic, even in a multilingual environment and regardless of how closely related languages are. Come on, I speak Spanish and can understand a bit of Italian and Portuguese, plus a few words of French and dash of Tagalog, but I'm hardly "fluent" in all of them.
I'm linguistically incompetent, and do not intend denigrate your linguistic abilities, as I can barely scrape together a few words in Spanish/Spanglish or French, and maybe a sentence or two in German, but would like to present a counter-example.
I had a roommate for three years in college who was a Russian/Slavic studies major. He first began learning Russian around age 12 or 13, iirc, and studied through obtaining his MBA (he also lived/lives abroad in Eastern Europe/Eurasia). I've literally watched him learn multiple languages in the Slavic family to what would be considered university level proficiency in 6 months, including "easy stuff" like Ukrainian, and more divergent stuff like Czech. I gather for the true linguist, this some-what par for the course (granted, this guy is wicked smart, get top marks in University and Fullbright to boot.)
For an exceptional character, like a mid level PC, picking up languages on a functional level shouldn't be too difficult. I do think that a sliding scale, like the favored enemy track and maybe some ad-hoc Perception/Sense Motive checks might be add some depth to the system.
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For the record, I'm cool with 1 rank = 1 language in Pathfinder. I don't personally like it, but it is the simplest (and most backwards compatible) way to handle languages in the official rules.
Here are a couple of other thoughts though...
It has always struck me a strange how it is equally easy to learn Varisian and Celestial, Dwarven and Abyssmal. What if you still work off the principal of ranks = languages, but different languages have different costs?
Most languages would still be 1 rank each, but a language that is very different from your own - like Golarion's Japanese equivalent - or just complex - Elven - could cost 2 ranks each. Some of the more bizarre ones - Celestial, Infernal, Abyssmal, etc. - could only be had by spending 4 ranks.
I could also see a system of language families (maybe based on alphabet). If you already speak a language within a family, the rest cost 1 rank each, but the first language in a new family costs 2 ranks.
Or maybe it depends on where you are. If you are in an area where the language is spoken it costs 1 rank to learn it. If you aren't (you are merely studying it) it costs 2 ranks.
On a total tangent, if people like 1 rank Linguistics = 1 language, how would you all feel about using this system with other skills?
* 1 rank Perform = 1 instrument/style
* 1 rank Ride = 1 kind of mount
* 1 rank Survival = expertise in 1 type of terrain
* 1 rank Handle Animal = train 1 kind of animal
Anything outside of your areas of expertise means a -4 penalty (for a net 0 if you have 1 rank and +3 class skill bonus), or only get to use half your ranks (easier at low levels, worse at high levels).
In North America, there is not a lot of languages used, mostly English, wtih French in Quebec and Spanish in California (and a few other southern states). In Europe, it is not uncommon for kids to speak 5 or 6 languages.
Not a lot of languages used in North Am? i take it youve never worked retail or in government? In both instances there are several times when ive had to deal with folks who didnt speak English, or Spanish. (and im barely coherent in THAT as is)
That being said, luckily most fantasy worlds are limited in that dialects arent usually regional, they're racial. I like that they keep it simple, and for the most part i tend to have no issue with the 1 rank = 1 language idea. Changing that doesnt in any way diminish the Linguistics skill since they lumped Decipher Script and Forgery into it as well, and neither of those are useless skills.
Mosaic:
Pathfinder has gone through alot of effort, rightly or wrongly, to shrink the amount of math and "up keep" necessary for skills.
I do not think they will therefore come back and create skills that require nothing but extra upkeeep in order to keep going.
The survival/perform change you recommend does just that. It requires extra work and extra upkeep, which is something that Pathfinder seems to think is blasphemous.
Generally:
What I still don't understand is why people think it is bad to have alot of languages, cheaply. Yes, you are right: someone who maxes out Linguistics ends up being a universal translater. So what? Is there some game feature I'm missing that makes this so terribly OP? All it really serves to do is to let someone save a spell slot on tongues or comp languages.
Let the bard (or whoever) learn alot of languages.
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It has always struck me a strange how it is equally easy to learn Varisian and Celestial, Dwarven and Abyssmal. What if you still work off the principal of ranks = languages, but different languages have different costs?
Most languages would still be 1 rank each, but a language that is very different from your own - like Golarion's Japanese equivalent - or just complex - Elven - could cost 2 ranks each. Some of the more bizarre ones - Celestial, Infernal, Abyssmal, etc. - could only be had by spending 4 ranks.
I could also see a system of language families (maybe based on alphabet). If you already speak a language within a family, the rest cost 1 rank each, but the first language in a new family costs 2 ranks.
There was an RP system that I played which did something similar to this, I want to say it was shadowrun but frankly I'm medicated this morning and can't swear to that, where basically adding languages was cheaper based on what other languages you knew. Learning Italian if you already knew spanish for instance was dirt cheap because they were so similar, while perhaps learning german when you know english would have a mid-cost(lot of similarities in the language, but definitely much more to learn then just the small differences of the first example), and then at the far end there was a high cost to pay for learning something like mandarin if you only spoke english because they are extremely dissimilar.
I enjoyed this system, but I think it adds a complexity that isn't very needed in D&D(for instance, they used ranks in language to determine how skilled you were and thats not currently present). Because of that I tend to be in the camp that languages should stay as they are and only cost 1 rank each, though I'm mostly indifferent about whether they would remain tied to decipher script/forgery or be their own seperate skill.
However, if anyone out there in Paizoland is thinking of including this sort of system, I would agree with the idea that any scaling they should have should be based on their lettering system. Thats an easy way to determine and could be added easily enough with just a small chart to show what alphabet each language uses.
-Tarlane
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1) there is no "common" (always hated that.. but american movies made it famous.. even in the most distant planet someone knows english... duh!)
It's not a concept from cinema.
What we now call Ancient Greece was actually a collection of small states with a loose cultural affiliation from around the Aegaean and mainland Greece. These communities spoke wildly varying indo-european dialects but these coalesced into a "Koine" (Common) tongue used for trade and diplomacy and other international communication.
This has since inspired the notion of a common tongue in many forms of fantasy, including dnd.
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It's not a concept from cinema.What we now call Ancient Greece was actually a collection of small states with a loose cultural affiliation from around the Aegaean and mainland Greece. These communities spoke wildly varying indo-european dialects but these coalesced into a "Koine" (Common) tongue used for trade and diplomacy and other international communication.
This has since inspired the notion of a common tongue in many forms of fantasy, including dnd.
There was also latin as the lingua franca of the early holy roman empire. In most cases, such a use reduces the complexity of the chosen language as it was done with latin and english.
On the subject, I have to say that I see no problem in the number of languages a character knows. He might be able to talk to many people, but without skills like bluff and diplomacy, those language slots aren't that useful. One could also argue that the ability of deciphering unknown scripts has a lot to do with comparing them to languages you know (linear b was deciphered by comparing it to ancient greece). The ability to decipher a script is nearly useless unless you also speak the language used, so it's quite plausible that you pick up lots of different languages while you train your deciphering skills.
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1) there is no "common" (always hated that.. but american movies made it famous.. even in the most distant planet someone knows english... duh!)It's not a concept from cinema.
What we now call Ancient Greece was actually a collection of small states with a loose cultural affiliation from around the Aegaean and mainland Greece. These communities spoke wildly varying indo-european dialects but these coalesced into a "Koine" (Common) tongue used for trade and diplomacy and other international communication.
This has since inspired the notion of a common tongue in many forms of fantasy, including dnd.
ok thanks... that is indeed interesting, je oen thing learned today :)
even then one thing is Trade langueage, and other like in the actual DnD is that common is indeed the base language of the world...
In Europe, it is not uncommon for kids to speak 5 or 6 languages.
Sorry, but...
yes, it is. I really don't know ANYONE who speaks more than 4 languages. It depends, of course, on what qualifies as speaking a language. Dialect? Basic concepts? Ability to decipher it when written?IMO, a rank system for languages from 1 to 4 would be cool. Maybe even more complicated languages?
And maybe that's just because I've got difficulties learning languages ;)
Maybe two ranks = 1 language would be ok. Even with the possibility to learn more languages on rank 1? So you could speak elfish fluently, but only have a basic understanding of dwarfen with 3 ranks in linguistics? or alternativly have dabbled in elfish, dwarfen and gnomish?
I don't mind. Realism went down in the surprise round against a guy who could use two morning stars at once without hurting himself and another guy who could shoot lightning out of his eyes (you don't want to know where the fireballs came from) :P. Oh, and there was also a creature that looked like a cross between ox and man. ;-)
It's always interesting what parts of fantasy world make people scream "FOUL PLAY". No one bats an eye on teleportation, fireballs, or becoming invisible, but weapons in the wrong time period, or people speaking 27 languages (not to mention guys who didn't learn anything much in 100 years of life, but then go from joe nobody to Lord of the World in less than a year).
My houserule is one rank buys you pidgin proficiency in the language, a 2nd means fluent, a 3rd native. Automatic languages are native, bonus languages fluent. If you have linguistics as class skill, you start with fluent and pay one for native, and all bonus languages are native as well. Not for everyone, but I like it.
However, if anyone out there in Paizoland is thinking of including this sort of system, I would agree with the idea that any scaling they should have should be based on their lettering system. Thats an easy way to determine and could be added easily enough with just a small chart to show what alphabet each language uses.
I could also see a system of language families (maybe based on alphabet). If you already speak a language within a family, the rest cost 1 rank each, but the first language in a new family costs 2 ranks.
Basing language similarity on alphabet is not very realistic. Hungarian uses the Latin alphabet, but is most closely related to a language spoken in Mongolia. Greek uses its own alphabet, but is closer to English than Hungarian is. The Chinese "alphabet" is a series of pictograms that have very little to do with how a language is spoken. This was very important in Chinese imperial history, because the Empire (still) consists of a wide variety of cultures and languages. The written language, because the word "tree" will mean "tree" no matter what language you speak, allowed everyone to understand this month's Imperial Edict.
Language is a funny thing, all them have their quirks, they aren't easily categorized, yet they all work off of similar principles. To attempt to portray this would require a level of complexity that is completely unnecessary. The similarities are such that 1 skill level = 1 language is realistic enough to justify the simplicity of the system.
I just finished skimming through the 4E PHB and I like what they did with Speak Languages there. They removed it as a skill and made it a feat. When you choose the feat, you get to speak/read/write three languages of your choice. Not a bad move.
One could consider giving bards this feat for free at start or maybe every few levels, or heck, just give them additional languages as a class feature like the old days.
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It's always interesting what parts of fantasy world make people scream "FOUL PLAY". No one bats an eye on teleportation, fireballs, or becoming invisible, but weapons in the wrong time period, or people speaking 27 languages (not to mention guys who didn't learn anything much in 100 years of life, but then go from joe nobody to Lord of the World in less than a year).
I absolutely get your point. For me, stuff like magic doesn't seem "unrealistic" to me because nobody in the world has any experience with it. It's a completely made-up thing so it can operate by any rules we want. But if I made a feat that said PCs only have to eat once a week or that that they can stay underwater 1 hour per level without breathing, it is "unrealistic" because it doesn't just ignore the need for food or air (which would be complete suspension of disbelief), it comes up with a rule that flies in the face of my personal experience. FOR ME, learning a language as easily as becoming a 5% better jumper or swimmer flies in the face of my experience so it's "unrealistic" to me. I have no experience with fireballs or ox-men so we can say whatever we want about them.
That said, I'm fine with 1 rank = 1 language. It is the best possible neutral ground for a rule on languages. It's simple and any house rule someone like me would want (new language = feat; 5 ranks = new language; some languages cost 2 or 4 ranks; whatever) can be tacked on effortlessly. If one of those house rules were to become the norm, it would be much harder for someone to undo. The more I read discussions of rules ideas for Pathfinder, the more I keep coming back to that idea. Pathfinder is never going to be able to incorporate everyone's ideas and house rules, but it would be great if the base systems were such that people could add their own house rules for their house games with as little tinkering as possible.
I just finished skimming through the 4E PHB and I like what they did with Speak Languages there. They removed it as a skill and made it a feat. When you choose the feat, you get to speak/read/write three languages of your choice. Not a bad move.
I don't like it.
Why three languages? Why not one? Why not five? Why not Int bonus?
I say keep speaking languages a skill. It works.
For me, that smacks of "changing things so they're different". Not my favourite design philosophy.