Onion 316's page

From a real-world perspective I understand where you all are coming from- learning multiple languages can be daunting.

I really don't understand this sentiment, nor the angst so many people feel over getting a language down for every point spent.

Firstly, once you understand grammar, learning any language is relatively easy. It really is only a matter of learning vocabulary.

Secondly, in a world where languages are in constant contact (as they are in any fantasy world that accepts the SRD or PFRPG rules as written), vocabulary gets borrowed all the time (even from languages of enemies). This makes learning vocabulary that much easier.

Thirdly, who in the world would waste three skill points to learn one measly language?

Seriously folks, for someone so inclined to learn multiple languages, it isn't all that difficult, especially in a world where trade between races is common (as is suggested by the way the SRD and PFRPG are written).

However, if anyone out there in Paizoland is thinking of including this sort of system, I would agree with the idea that any scaling they should have should be based on their lettering system. Thats an easy way to determine and could be added easily enough with just a small chart to show what alphabet each language uses.

I could also see a system of language families (maybe based on alphabet). If you already speak a language within a family, the rest cost 1 rank each, but the first language in a new family costs 2 ranks.

Basing language similarity on alphabet is not very realistic. Hungarian uses the Latin alphabet, but is most closely related to a language spoken in Mongolia. Greek uses its own alphabet, but is closer to English than Hungarian is. The Chinese "alphabet" is a series of pictograms that have very little to do with how a language is spoken. This was very important in Chinese imperial history, because the Empire (still) consists of a wide variety of cultures and languages. The written language, because the word "tree" will mean "tree" no matter what language you speak, allowed everyone to understand this month's Imperial Edict.

Language is a funny thing, all them have their quirks, they aren't easily categorized, yet they all work off of similar principles. To attempt to portray this would require a level of complexity that is completely unnecessary. The similarities are such that 1 skill level = 1 language is realistic enough to justify the simplicity of the system.

And in a fantasy world, most languages are isolated from the others.

I beg to differ. Any world in which Half-Elves are a PC race means that Elves and Humans have enough contact that their languages will affect each other. Any world that has Half-Orcs as a PC race means the same for Humans and Orcs. Any world that gives Gnomes and Dwarves racial bonuses against Orcs, Goblinoids, and Reptilians means that those races interact enough that their languages will affect each other. Any world that allows Rangers the full range of favored enemies indicates that all of these various types of creatures interact with all the PC races to the extent that languages of all possible favored enemies will affect all the PC racial languages.

If anything, a typical fantasy world, as indicated by the core rules of PFRPG and the SRD, has languages that interact with each other on a much grander scale that has occurred in history.

This interaction generally happens through trade, diplomacy and war. All three have their incentives for learning other languages. For a real-world example of the last, Greeks DO NOT like the Turks. Yet, their language is full of turkish words.

This is about a recently converted bard, but really it is about the Linguistic skill.

Fidan the bard has always been interested in ancient scriptures, so his PRPG conversion included a full compliment of Linguistic ranks.

He wanted the skill for the "decipher writing" effect, and got a ton of languages as a bonus. He is 9th level and his character knows a total of 13 languages! And he learned 8 of them in less than a year.

I'd like to file a bug report please.

Have you ever studied multiple languages? The more you know, the more everything seems the same. Every languages has its quirks, mind you, but they all pretty much operate in the same way.

My wife, by virtue of speaking Romanian, also understands French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and Latin. Grant it, these languages are all related, making the transition from one to the other quite easy, but it just illustrates the point that someone who is dedicated to languages can quickly pick things up.

Having studied Greek, it is very easy to see how languages that bump into each other affect each other. Greek is everywhere and words from all kinds of languages have made their way into Greek.

Thus, in a fantasy world where all the various races are in constant contact, each language is going to adapt and take on characteristics of other languages. Thus, the ability to decipher script — you find the similarities and take an educated guess.

The only reason to be concerned is if you have languages that are isolated. Then you can simply rule that without contact, these languages are off limits.

The idea that at 15th level an Infernal Sorcerer gets to fly 24/7 and a Celestial Sorcerer can only fly for 15 minutes a day strikes me not only as out of whack, but offensive.

My thoughts on the balance issues (just on first glance), is that similar abilities should be equal. The fly example is a good one. If Draconic and Infernal get unlimited use of wings, then so should Celestial *UNLESS* celestial gets an added bonus while using their wings... say, inspire awe effect or something.

Something in me is deeply offended that a 15th level Infernal Sorcerer can fly 24/7 and a 15th level Celestial Sorcerer can only fly for 15 minutes.

The problem is that Celestials get wings at 9th and Infernals and Draconics get it at 15th. Thus, the Celestial Wings necessarily need to be weaker. Easy house-rule fix I intend to use: Celestial Wings are 1 minute per level until 15th when they operate in the same way that Infernal and Draconic wings do.

Sorry, but if you're going to dump on the vikings for raiding christians, Ive got news for you; everyone raids everyone; and everyone thinks they're right. What, did you expect the vikings to say "oh, wait, these guys have the one right religion. lets turn the longboat around and go back without any swag."

My intention was never to "dump on the vikings." I have ancestry from that part of the world. I was simply trying to point out that even in a campaign analogous to Scandinavia, the need to acknowledge/have a mechanic for a monotheistic/Christian religion still exists if you are going to be historically accurate.

Unfortunately, as history has proven over and over again, every group of people (ethnic, national, religious or otherwise) has been both an oppressor and a victim. I certainly don't pretend that this reality doesn't exist.

I am not asking anyone to submit to my own religious beliefs (that would actually be contrary to those very beliefs). I AM asking that the Pathfinder RPG take a step back from wording that DOES require a religious world-view in its mechanics for divine magic.

Hi Onion 3:16.

Hi Chris.

How sad.

I'm trying to read that in any way that doesn't come across as condescending. It may be my biases, keeping me from hearing your intended tone of voice.

Oops. Sorry if I offended. I did not intend to be condescending. However, I obviously have. Again, apologies.

By the by, I don't normally comment on spelling, but there's something I think you'd want to know. The word is "antediluvian" (that is, "before the flood") not "antidiluvian" (which would mean, presumably, "against the flood").

Thank you. I stand corrected.

More generally, people, Onion 316 has a perfectly reasonable thesis here.

Again, thank you. I am simply asking for everyone to acknowledge this simple idea and have it reflected in a set of core rules.

I have yet to see a claim to be a universal system from anyone at Paizo.

I think our current plan is to make the book as open (as in, OGC) as possible. The more world-specific stuff we put in, the more we have to clamp down on as IP. :\
Finally, world neutrality is our goal. :)

To my mind, "world neutrality" is a synonym for "universality." If Pathfinder RPG is to be 3.5 only better, it cannot be better and be limited to a single world.

To demonstrate how innocuous my request is, I would like to point out that the Rules Cyclopedia states, "The D&D game does not deal with the ethical and theological beliefs the characters in the game." This opens the door to all kinds of interpretations, including monotheism.

The Alpha 1 Release states:
"Each deity has a number of spheres of influence, ideals and concepts that they represent and champion. Their followers can draw upon these domains for additional powers and abilities. Each cleric chooses two of the domains granted by their deity upon taking their first level."
Word Count = 45

"Clerics have access to two domains chosen at first level. These domains reflect the influence, ideals and conepts of various religions, creeds, or causes. The examples below of dieties and their domains are representative of the Pathfinder Universe."
Word Count = 38

The latter is far more "world neutral" and allows those of you who wish to play in a polytheistic world do so. It also acknowledges the possibility of a monotheistic reality.

Hey Onion,

I'm actually working on a monotheistic campaign setting right now that actually incorporates some of your suggestions.

Cool. The mechanic of Creeds is something I hadn't thought of. Wow, that opens up a whole bunch of possibilities for a D&D campaign, especially if you know the history of Christianity and its internal struggles to express its own dogma. I can envision Creeds for various analogies for groups like the Gnostics (who believed creation was evil — there is your Evil, Chaos, Necromancy, etc.), Arians, Nestorians, Monophysites, etc.

Thanks for the post! What a great idea!

This only proves my suggestion for an edit of the core rules should reflect this possibility if they are to have any claim at universality.

Is it that you're offended by the idea of pretending that, in a fantasy world, there is a pantheon of gods as there was in Greek or Norse mythology?

Absolutely not, especially if your setting is actively attempting to to be analogous to Ancient Greece or medieval Scandinavia (but please note, the people who they went viking against were primarily Christian).

Let me turn the question around, are you offended by the idea of pretending , in a fantasy world, there is only one God as there was in most of Europe from the 4th century on?

I am simply asking that the core rules reflect this possibility. I am not asking that they change the system in a radical way. All it requires is that rewriting of a phrase so that the system doesn't REQUIRE a polytheistic world view.

I am a very devout Christian, but have never felt the need to incorporate my beliefs into the game and can't imagine a D&D that didn't include the polytheistic aspect.

How sad. For all of you who struggle with this, let me try to sketch out how a Christian world view might look like in a D&D world:

1) God created everything. This includes all of the varioius planes of existence. He called them all good.

2) Satan and his angels rebelled through pride. Yes, this means that God created the devil and allows him to exist and work in the world. Why? To coerce His own creation into following Him limits our freedom, does not reflect a loving God, nor does it allow us to exist in His image and likeness.

3) Humanity rebelled against God. This free choice has brought sin, evil, suffering, and death into the world. God is not responsible for evil — we are. Death is a consequence of our separation from God, just as a burn is a consequence of touching a hot burner.

4) There are plenty of things to fight in the fallen world. The devil and his minions are constantly warring against humanity. In the antidiluvian world, the Nephalim bred with humanity to produce all manner of unnatural creature. Why can't a fantasy world reflect a reality where God chose not to wipe them out with a flood? Why can't these beings be responsible for occupying and shaping all the various planes of existence?

5) Since God created everything, ALL domains are available to Clerics. For the purposes of your campaign, you will want a means of controlling how a Cleric receives her domains. See my first post to begin to understand that the Evil Domain, the Chaos Domain, etc. can all be gifts from God and used to do His will. Grant it, using the Evil Domain for good would be difficult, almost a handicap. However, this reflects, it its own way, that God creates each of us with our own flaws and weaknesses. In doing His will, these can become our strengths.

I am asking that this possibility be more accessible for the public at large by making the core rules more universal and allowing for the POSSIBILITY of a monotheistic reality and not REQUIRE polytheism. It wouldn't take much, just a small edit in the explaination of the Domains.

According to the SRD of 3.5, "Unlike arcane spells, divine spells draw power from a divine source. Clerics gain spell power from deities or from divine forces."

This is further explained in the Alpha 1 Release, "Each deity has a number of spheres of influence, ideals and concepts that they represent and champion. Their followers can draw upon these domains for additional powers and abilities. Each cleric chooses two of the
domains granted by their deity upon taking their first level."

I have a radical question: Why is it mechanically necessary to explain divine magic in terms of a polytheistic world view?

I ask this because of the roots of our modern concept of Fantasy. Both Beowulf and La Mort de Arthur were written from a Christian perspective. C.S. Lewis allowed his own Christianity to heavily influence the Narnia chronicals. J.R.R. Tolkien was a devout Catholic and, to a less obvious degree, allowed his beliefs to shape his story telling (if you don't believe me, a friend of mine got his Masters of Theology by showing how much of the Old Testament shows up in Tolkien).

Given these roots, shouldn't there be a mechanical option for those who wish to honor these roots, or to reflect them in their games?

I realize that conceptually it is difficult to explain how God, given that He is good, would ever grant the Evil Domain to an evil cleric and allow this guy to go around using divine energies, power, etc. disobeying His commandments. Thus, there is the apparant need for divine powers that support such activities.

However, one of the most fundamental concepts of Christianity holds that the created world was called "very good" by God. Thus, when it comes to whether something in creation is good or evil, it doesn't matter WHAT something is, but rather how it is USED. Thus, no matter how difficult it may seem, it is possible to use the Evil Domain for good.

Keeping this concept in mind, isn't it possible to understand the ability to use divine magic as a gift from God to be used and developed in the same manner as, say, musical ability? The potential is there, but it still needs to be harnessed, and trained in order to take full advantage. This way, each character who has the ability to cast divine magic is completely free to use the gift in the manner in which she chooses (reflecting another Christian concept, free will).

Thus, it is theoretically possible for someone to be given the Evil Domain and through free will use it to obey God's commands.

So, in the name of universality and in honor of folks like Tolkien and Lewis, would it be possible for the Pathfinder guys to do a little editing and open the door to this kind of mechanic?