My exposure to the upcoming 4th Edition of Dungeons & Dragons is highly limited. Beyond browsing through the laughable "preview" books being issued in my FLGS and catching bits and pieces of the stuff WotC lets out on their website, I know little about the system. (I did like the cartoons, by the way. Has anyone else's table lingo adopted, "I'm a monster, RAWR!")
What I have seen, though, is how the new design philosophy affected the Star Wars RPG in its current Saga incarnation. Having run the game with low-level characters for about four sessions, putting them through Dawn of Defiance, I find the game more difficult to run and the character build process more difficult to explain to my players. Jedi, in particular, have been weirded out, in that Force powers seem to become more Vancian, if anything; sure, you regain them every encounter, but you have to take a power multiple times to use it, like a damned cleric preparing spells in D&D.
Plus there's keeping all the various rules straight - "What does Skirmisher do?" "Skirmisher? Wait, is that a feat or a talent?" "Oh, it's a Scoundrel class talent, let me find the page..."
*cue the dying of all game momentum*
One of my D&D players sat in on a SWRPG session once, and her comment afterward was, "So THIS is what 4th ed is moving toward? Please don't convert. I'll cry."
Based on my experiences with that design philosophy, my personal decision for quite some time now has been to stick to the 3.5 SRD as the core mechanic of my games, with house-ruled alterations to skills and feats.
What's great about the Pathfinder RPG, at least for me, is that it's done my job for me as a fantasy roleplaying system.
I wanted a streamlined skill set with a less cumbersome process for buying ranks - has anyone ever tried to explain to a newb how buying cross-class skill ranks works? It's not fun, and it should take less time. Pathfinder does that.
I had infinite problems with players using polymorph spells that I solved by adopting fan-created variants I found on forums. Pathfinder broke down polymorph variants into an easy-to-understand and sensibly limiting system of graduated power via the design of the appropriate spells.
I have slowly adapted my game using the Alpha releases, first by introducing NPCs built using Pathfinder core classes of fighter and wizard, and then by having my players recreate their own characters using those core classes.
My players are enjoying the game more, as well. They no longer cringe when I ask for skill checks. Several of them run sorcerers, and the bloodlines were extremely popular additions to their character concepts. Fighter-types are loving the combat feats like Overhand Chop, and grapples are resolved almost painlessly.
D&D 3.5 always felt to me more like a body of errata than a true upgrade. Pathfinder manages to BE the upgrade 3.5 should have been to merit asking people to go out and buy the rule books all over again. They've allowed us to use a free Alpha release and contribute meaningfully to the design process to create a better game. I don't feel WotC acted in as open and honest a fashion towards their fans. That's why, ultimately, this is the hardcover RPG book I'll be investing in and dog-earing rather than 4th Edition.
Plus there's keeping all the various rules straight - "What does Skirmisher do?" "Skirmisher? Wait, is that a feat or a talent?" "Oh, it's a Scoundrel class talent, let me find the page..."*cue the dying of all game momentum*
So, uh, your criticism of Saga is that it has different abilities that the players weren't smart enough to keep track of on their character sheets?
I've got the same problem with pretty much every RPG I've ever played. For the first 10 games I ever played of DnD, the Cleric would cast bless and at least one person at the table (often the cleric) would ask "What's bless do?"
Honestly, there are spells I have on my wizard character sheet I still find myself looking up... and that means remembering what book it's from. Pain in the rear.
And Pathfinder certainly hasn't changed that... now we're looking spells up twice, once in the SRD, once in Pathfinder for changes (just to be sure it didn't get changed).
The fact that an RPG has mechanics players are unfamiliar with is always going to be the case until the players are familiar with what their characters can do.
For what it's worth, I converted my Star Wars game to Saga a year ago, and in the beginning my players were confused by some of the changes, and many criticized the system as being "written by monkeys". But we're still playing the system... and as we've gone on, they've gotten more familiar with the mechanics and it has moved much faster.
As it is, the mechanics in Pathfinder aren't especially difficult for experienced players, because it is so similar to 3.5. But, we're still looking things up.
^ Agreed. You ran a new system and players were confused? Horrors.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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It was my understanding from his post, that Saga wasn't the 'skirmisher' problem, that was the Scout from Complete Adventurer.
That said, I understand the 'loving the SRD' For my current character from EtCG I need:
My Legionary class
Player's Handbook.
Liber Mortus for the half vampire template
Magic Item Compendium
Book of Eldrich Might
Book of Roguish Luck
Advanced GameMaster's Guide
Beyond Countless Doorways
Issue of Dragon Magazine.
And I was being kind. As is, I put everything into a word doc, so I just have a 3 page character sheet. Other players have the same issue, but without the cheat sheet. Nothing bogs down a game faster than "I'm going to cast a spell! now which book is it in?"
Nothing bogs down a game faster than "I'm going to cast a spell! now which book is it in?"
Either PHB or Spell Compendium. Or you don't have that spell. ^^
Nothing bogs down a game faster than "I'm going to cast a spell! now which book is it in?"Either PHB or Spell Compendium. Or you don't have that spell. ^^
I go one step further. Either look it up while the others are going, know what it does when your initative is up, or, too bad, You took the spell, you should know what it does.
I've seen many people create cheat sheets or even spell cards.
As for SW SAGA, I like it. It's different enough from D&D to be different, it's balanced, and fun.
4E, is none of those, except different from D&D. I am far happier with Pathfinder, and that is the route my group is taking.
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Actually, I've taken the effort of revamping Spell Lists and including them with character sheets. So, when a player want to cast a spell, he'll know the meat and potatoes of its effect, how long it'll take to cast, and if he's a specialist wizard, whether it is actually in a prohibited school or not:
Spell Name: Action Type. Description (incl. damage, max, augmentation, etc.) Components. School.
E.g.,
Identify: Standard. Determine properties of a magical item for 1 round/lvl. +10 Appraise. (VSM). Div.
I go one step further. Either look it up while the others are going, know what it does when your initative is up, or, too bad, You took the spell, you should know what it does.
I've seen many people create cheat sheets or even spell cards.
As for SW SAGA, I like it. It's different enough from D&D to be different, it's balanced, and fun.
4E, is none of those, except different from D&D. I am far happier with Pathfinder, and that is the route my group is taking.
Currently, we have a warmage in our group...
Every time it is his turn, he surveys the situation and looks up the complete spell list of the warmage class, because he can cast any one he has the right spell slot for. Often takes longer than the actions of all other pcs and monsters combined. -.-
And thats why players turns need time limits.
Because he wouldn't have that much time to think about things if the situation were real. The DM is giving him a free Timestop spell there on almost every turn.
If he wants to run a Warmage in one of my games, he would have to take the time to memorize all the warmage spells - just as he would if he were really his character (which is what RPing is all about - NOT how many books you own or can thumb through).
Anyway, I was interested in 4e, but there is too much missing from it at the outset for it to be a viable option for me. I'll wait until they relese all the core classes, power sources, and player races before I give this a second glance.
Its not hard to put small footnote indicating what book your ability/feat/spell comes from and the page number.
I guess I'm lucky, my current group is incredibly good about keeping side notes on their abilities, items, and even npc contacts. I only have to remind them of NPC names when the clock chimes midnight and some start getting drowsy.
I guess for me and my group, if you don't want game to bog down with rules, there are two options: know, or at least cut down to the minimum the time it takes to look up, the rules. Or play a very simple character that doesn't need many rules.
I've seen well rounded, legitimate characters with 3 base classes and 2 prestige classes, that honestly could never be described with just 1 class, but they exist perfectly in the versimilitude of the world. And they are complex, but the player kept good notes.
I've also seen, a surprisingly devastating, fighter who took only passive feats. Weapon focus. Weapon Specialization. Great Fort, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Toughness, etc, etc. No math to remember, its all added in already. Simple. And powerful.