So now the fighter gets an ability called Bravery giving him bonuses to save vs. fear. The barbarian already gets bonuses to Will saves while raging and the paladin has aura of courage. Every other class but the ranger and rogue have good will saves. To top it all off once a party reaches 11th level, it is my experience that the cleric writes down "heroes' feast" on his spell sheet in permanent ink.
I don't have too many ideas on how at the moment, but is there any chance Pathfinder could help rectify the fact that fear effects are becoming nigh worthless? Personally, I don't think Bravery is needed. The fighter makeover was already far and above what I think was needed to make the fighter an attractive long-term option.
Yeah, heroes feast takes all the sting out of fear effects, I agree with you on that.
But I can also see where they are coming from on the design side: fear effects are kinda fun for the player to use (but a little annoying for the DM), and while they're no more or less fun for the DM than any other ability, they absolutely suck for the player, because it means that your character is out of the fight, possibly gaining the attention of more monsters, and maybe even barreling through traps as well.
Designers in World of Warcraft have been looking at the same thing; many of the previous endgame dungeons relied heavily on fear effects to be "challenging". But the end result was spending half of the battle (or more) effectively unable to play your character.
I've seen some incredibly ignoble deaths from fear effects, especially the "strong" ones that can crop up here and there. (I'm looking at you, spawn of kyuss!)
The winner had to be one where, due to positioning, the specific Spawn of Kyuss who's fear aura was failed against, cause the fighter to run uncontrolably through the rest of the other 7 spawn. 3 attacks of opportunity succeed, 3 worms enter him, and while he is running around like a chicken with his head cut off, the worms get to his brain and perforate it in 3 rounds, because nobody could get to him after the Kyuss Spawn bunched up around them, and he couldn't take actions to get rid of the worms, even gouging them out with his dagger, because he had to run in fear.
It was a dynamic, dramatic death. Which 90% of the time, is a good thing. But this one just sucked, because the PC went from "in control of my character, at full health" to "totally not in control, dead from a counterable attack" in one roll.
You can see im kind of in the "Pro-Pathfinder Changes to Save or Die Boat".
While I don't think the fighter needed any more boosts to be more than an equal to the rest of the classes, Bravery is a decent class ability - makes good sense. I also like that it is an untyped bonus, and not a Morale bonus, which is endlessly overused for fear effects.
With the weakening of Heroes Feast to grant only a +4 (morale) bonus, I think you find a lot more characters being frightened away already. Fear saves tend to be automatic, area effect abilities with high DC's (either from going off a prime stat (Lich), or high Hit Dice (Dragons)).
The Fear spell (3rd/4th level after all) could need
a small improvement IMO. Become "shaken" for one round
per two levels or even one round "frightened" and then
"shaken" on a successful save for example.
I don't think it's a good idea to make Fear an auto-run effect for everyone even on a save...
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I will be very dissapointed if there aren't some kick-butt fighter only feats in BETA, as that is the only possible way to make it[fighter] worth the paper its printed on. Aside from a complete overhaul.
Rejigged and boosted Alpha 2 Weapon Training. Basically, it's bonuses to attack, damage and combat maneuvers when using the weapons from the weapon group.
I'm also working on some additional combat maneuvers which will play into fighter's strengths and class skills.
I still think the Fighter should represent the pinnacle of Martial focus, no matter what they choose to focus on, be it Longsword and Shield, Spear, Bow, or Mace, they should rule at it, and have access to extra feats.
This could be done with the Fighter Weapon Groups, provide 2-3 feats for each group of weapons that only fighters can get above and beyond what other characters can.
A Ranger is good at two weapon fighting or a bow, but he also spots, listens, tracks, has spells, and an animal companion.
The Fighter, if he/she chooses two-weapon fighting, should be untouchable and whirling, a bow, a fountain of arrows, a mace, shake the ground, etc.
I think there should be /some/ choice to be in Chain or Leather, personally, instead of Full Plate too, but meh, I accept people don't groove with that.
The winner had to be one where, due to positioning, the specific Spawn of Kyuss who's fear aura was failed against, cause the fighter to run uncontrolably through the rest of the other 7 spawn. 3 attacks of opportunity succeed, 3 worms enter him, and while he is running around like a chicken with his head cut off, the worms get to his brain and perforate it in 3 rounds, because nobody could get to him after the Kyuss Spawn bunched up around them, and he couldn't take actions to get rid of the worms, even gouging them out with his dagger, because he had to run in fear.
I would have loved for one of my characters to die that way.
I'm playing a Pfighter in a playtest on Mondays, and I have yet to determine any reason for my fighter to be there, between the barbarian and the half-orc cleric. I'm not even really much of a flanking bonus, since the cleric has the animal domain, there is a druid in the party, and the three gnomes all have riding dogs.
What you describe doesn't sound like a problem with the class but rather with the fact that you are playing a redundant role in a party full of melee-focused characters. I imagine in such a party, a lot of them are wondering where their place is in the party. If you were in a party that consisted of a bard, a wizard, a rogue, and a sorcerer, I doubt you would be complaining.
You've missed the forest for the trees, IMHO. The fighter is highly effective at exactly what he is designed to be effective at: dealing blows and taking hits. Pathfinder changes improve this. Armor training improves his AC in more ways than one (raising the AC bonus and improving max Dex) and weapon training improves his to-hit and damage. He still deals a little less damage than the barbarian but not a lot less, and his AC is now considerably higher. He is now better at fighting nonevil monsters than the paladin. He was always a better melee character than the monk and ranger who have their own shticks of mobility and survivalist respectively. I don't see the problem.
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Weapon Focus is utter garbage. Its only real purpose is to serve as a prereq feat for other feats that are better than a normal feat should be. Not that any feats like that come to mind, since Weapon Spec. is pretty mcuh garbage to.The problem with fighters is NOT that their numbers aren't BIG enough. The problem with fighters is that their numbers aren't IMPORTANT enough. They don't have anything unique to them. In oldschool D&D, you had to be a fighter to get more than one attack in a round. Since that is no longer the case, the fighter no longer has any real advantage in combat, except slightly bigger numbers.
I don't disagree that as it stands, Weapon Focus is garbage. But it is a useful prerequisite, and it could be tweaked for Pathfinder to the fighters advantage.
Overall, I find fighters have a heavy advantage when it comes to special tactical situations such as grappling - I once had a fighter with a +16 to trip, at 3rd level. I don't care abot rage, that is hard to beat.
As for the old school stuff, I fully agree. If they want to streamline combat, make fighters the only ones with iterative attacks! Or at least make it a fighter specific feat. For some reason, monks got the option for more base attacks in 3rd edition, while fighters did not...
Brainstorm!
Why not give fighters a class option that gives them a damage bonus when using the full attack action (rewarding their focus and positioning). That simulates extra attacks, and is easily compatible. Something like 1 + 1 damage for every attack you have:
Level 1-5: +2 damage on all attacks this round.
Level 6-10: +3 damage.
Level 11-15: +4 damage.
Level 16-20: +5 damage.
I have never liked how fear effects work since they take away the player's ability to play the game.
My preference would be for all fear effects to impose a condition which worsens to the point where fleeing becomes a realistic choice for the player to make themselves based on the penalties they're taking. I would apply the effects normally to NPCs.
Something along the lines of:
Shaken: same as current.
Frightened: -4 penalty on atks, saves, skills, and checks, Spellcraft DC 15+spell level to cast spells, 1/2 movement in any direction except away from the source of their fear.
Panicked: -8 penalty on atks, saves, skills, and checks, Spellcraft DC 25+spell level to cast spells, 1/4 movement in any direction except away from the source of their fear.
This gives the character strong motivation to retreat from the encounter, but also allows them to role-play out overcoming their fear, and perhaps succeeding in spite of their fear.
It also provides fertile ground for the use of action points (if such a system is being used), and the use of the spell remove fear since the target of the spell has most likely not run away before it is cast.
Oooh! An idea! What if fighters who have the proper feat (Improved Trip, Improved Disarm) could have a fighter only use of the feat: specifically, the ability to employ the feat during a regular attack!
So, instead of using an attack roll to make an improved trip attempt, the fighter makes a regular attack, which if it lands, he could then opt to use improved trip to make a trip attempt in addition to normal damage? Same with disarm, etc? Harder to envision with grapple, but even overrun and bullrush could be used in this manner too. If its too strong, perhaps a penalty on the attack roll? Or on the CMB roll if it lands?
The only thing a fighter has going besides attacking is the option of battlefield control, but he has to give up his regular attacks to do it. Just like everyone else. What if the fighter's special ability is being able to use battlefield control WITHOUT giving up his attacks?
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Oooh! An idea! What if fighters who have the proper feat (Improved Trip, Improved Disarm) could have a fighter only use of the feat: specifically, the ability to employ the feat during a regular attack!
I like this idea, entirely backwards compatable and pretty easy to employ. I don't see a problem with someone hitting an opponent with a Greataxe and then starting a grapple, but they would probably have to drop the weapon.
In order to provide some balance, a -4 penalty seems reasonable.
The only problem is that it doesn't prevent someone from taking the "fighter dip" for this benefit, so it might be appropriate at say 5th or 7th level, typically dead levels for fighters.
I think you are missing the trees for the forest. The party cleric is a better fighter than the party fighter
Aside from the fact that your reversal of my analogy is inaccurate, your claim that the cleric is a better fighter is patently false unless one or more of the following is in place:
1) the cleric rolled significantly higher ability scores than you and happens to have a much higher strength and con score
2) the cleric has much better gear
3) the cleric spends 2-3 rounds buffing himself before heading into battle (time you are hacking at the enemy)
4) you are playing a suboptimal build like a Dex-based finesse fighter
Whether your fault or not, none of the previous reasons is a reflection of the fighter class. All other things being equal, a fighter should always have a better attack bonus, deal more damage, and have more hit points than a cleric. To suggest otherwise means all other things are not equal, in which case your personal anecdote is boiled down to nothing more than sour grapes.