[THINK TANK] Rangers

[JRR]

Brian Kovich wrote:

quest-master wrote:

I'm curious. In what order do you guys prioritize the Ranger's stats?

1 Con

2 Str
3 wis
4 int
5 dex
6 cha

A ranger is a wily, incredibly hardy outdoorsman and a fearsome fighter. He's a loner, who relies on his wits and wisdom to survive and doesn't care a lot for large groups of people. It would be nice if he was agile, but not required.

[JRR]

I'm opposed to rangers simply teleporting willy nilly, not because it's overpowered, but because it doesn't fit the archetype. Teleportation is a feat best left to wizards. A ranger is supposed to be a hardy woodsman, to just teleport to wherever he wants is to stop being a ranger. Who needs survival skills when you can just pop into an inn every night for a beer and a bath?

[Phlebas]

I play a ranger in 3,5 with two house rules that work fine

1 - Ranger level -3 for animal companion (instead of 1/2)

2 - At each point where you would access a new level of spell, you can gain a bonus feat instead. once you do this you never progress in your spellcasting abilities - also solves the MAD issue as you can cap your wisdom requirement...

the new stuff for pathfinder (terrain etc) looks good, but i would lose the recharge period for Quarry, and replace it with a Full Round Action. This means it can be used in combat, but wont be used in every combat as a round at high levels can be a big thing to waste....

only thing i would add is MORE COMBAT STYLES.

so not to tread on the fighters toes my suggestions are

Thrown weapons (I have a axe hurling ranger but neither TWF or Archery work brilliantly)
Mounted Combat (if you have a mainly outdoor campaign)
Improvised Weapons (I like the idea of simple weapons such as spears and clubs being useful)
Exotic hunting weapons (Lasso, net, harpoon, whip - you know you want one...)

follow the same formula as the other combat styles and it doesnt become that complicated

[Plognark]

Phlebas wrote:

I play a ranger in 3,5 with two house rules that work fine

1 - Ranger level -3 for animal companion (instead of 1/2)

2 - At each point where you would access a new level of spell, you can gain a bonus feat instead. once you do this you never progress in your spellcasting abilities - also solves the MAD issue as you can cap your wisdom requirement...

Yeah, this is similar to how the Complete Champion alt. works. It seems pretty balanced.

Quote:

the new stuff for pathfinder (terrain etc) looks good, but i would lose the recharge period for Quarry, and replace it with a Full Round Action. This means it can be used in combat, but wont be used in every combat as a round at high levels can be a big thing to waste....

I'm also fond of the terrain stuff. Not sure about Quarry; seems ok, but we haven't had a chance to use it yet.

Quote:

only thing i would add is MORE COMBAT STYLES.

so not to tread on the fighters toes my suggestions are

Thrown weapons (I have a axe hurling ranger but neither TWF or Archery work brilliantly)
Mounted Combat (if you have a mainly outdoor campaign)
Improvised Weapons (I like the idea of simple weapons such as spears and clubs being useful)
Exotic hunting weapons (Lasso, net, harpoon, whip - you know you want one...)

follow the same formula as the other combat styles and it doesnt become that complicated

I also like the idea of expanded combat styles. I run a pirate campaign with muzzle loader guns everywhere, and added in a gun-ranger build.

I think alternate ranger combat styles have been presented in one of the Dungeon or Dragon magazines a while back; they were pretty similar to what you presented here. They had a few odd ones, like an unarmed combat ranger who focused on grappling to subdue targets.

[nightflier]

What I miss is more animal companions, like the ranger had in 2nd Ed. So, first companion at lvl 4, second at lvl 8 and third at level 12. Different combat styles as well. For instance, what about plains ranger? First animal companion - horse; second - dog or a wolf; third - falcon. Add to that mounted combat fighting style, and you have a ranger that is very different from Drizzt and fun to play.

[SagaWeaver]

I have played quite a few rangers through out the years. What the Ranger is in alpha is not too bad. If you look at the progression of an animal companion of a Ranger, they sorely lack or become a liability in battle.

Roles
Range Ranger, Companion would be there to stop enemies from getting to the Ranger.

2 Weapon Ranger, Companion to be there to help flank and move with the Ranger.

The following is without spells to augment and base companion

Ranger and companion as is

4th lvl Ranger = 1 or 2 hd companion
6th lvl Ranger = 3 or 4 hd companion
8th lvl Ranger = 3 or 4 hd companion
10th lvl Ranger = 3 or 4 hd companion
12th lvl Ranger = 5 or 6 hd companion
16th lvl Ranger = 5 or 6 hd companion
20th lvl Ranger = 7 or 8 hd companion

For the animal companion BAB from +1 to +8
AC from 13 to 21

AT 20th Lvl 8 hd vs 20+ hd monsters, combat effectiveness can hit monsters on 18 or above mostly

The below as suggested at Ranger Lvl -3 for companion

4th lvl Ranger = 1 or 2 hd companion
6th lvl Ranger = 3 or 4 hd companion
8th lvl Ranger = 3 or 4 hd companion
10th lvl Ranger = 3 or 4 hd companion
12th lvl Ranger = 7 or 8 hd companion
16th lvl Ranger = 9 or 10 hd companion
20th lvl Ranger = 11 or 12 hd companion

For the Animal companion BAB now goes from +1 to +12
AC from 13 to 26

AT 20th Lvl 12 hd vs 20+ hd monsters, combat effectiveness can hit monsters on 14 or above

As you can see this still has the Companion behind the Druid and still able to assist in the life of the ranger without hindering. Making it also sensible that a higher level companion would stay with the Ranger when facing Outer planar beings.

[quest-master]

Let's not forget to take into account magical equipment for the companion too. A Collar of Natural Armor + Health + Resistance and Bracers of Armor + Giant Strength can make a big difference.

By the way, please read the whole of what I've written next before posting a reply. The first paragraph sounds broken until you get to the rest of the text.

I was thinking, what if we make the animal companion feature the ability to forge a "mystical link" with up to effective druid level + Wisdom bonus (if any) animals instead, using a special Diplomacy check?
At higher levels you would be able to link with stronger animals or magical beasts with a higher check.
Or a stacking penalty to the check for each companion you have.
You get a bonus to the check based on your effective druid level.

"As you approach the magical panther summoned from the figurine of wondrous power, you reach out with your hands as a gesture of trust. The panther sniffs at you, and as you speak to it, You remind it of the dangers you faced together and the kindness you've shown it compared to the cruelty of its current master. The panther then makes a change of heart and turns, growling at the wizard that summoned it."

You take your strongest companion with you on the adventure (if at all) and leave the others to defend your grove while you're gone.

Special: The companion does not get stronger as the ranger or druid gains levels. However the companion(s) can "level up" by gaining experience during the adventure, advancing as a creature of their type would normally advance. (HD, BAB, skills, feats, etc.)
"You've raised this bear from a cub. Now he's really big and can deliver powerful blows in combat."

Special: The companion would still provide a bonus to Perception checks and gain a bonus to Will saving throws because of the link.

We can limit the number of companions normally taken on an adventure by creating a risk: The link causes the ranger to take nonlethal damage (mental anguish/pain) if any companion is slain.

When nonlethal damage is equal to or greater than CURRENT hit points, the ranger falls unconscious, which can be dangerous during combat.

Just a bit of brainstorming. This would make the animal companion you have as strong as your DM will allow and makes the ranger companion a little bit more on par with the druid companion. This will also let you be adaptive depending on the environment of your adventure.
"Uh oh. The BBEG is escaping on a boat. What? You didn't prepare a Fly or Water Walk spell? Okay. Hmmm. Oh. (runs over and dives into water) Hey! I got us a ride! Thank goodness these dolphins came along just now. Too bad I didn't prepare Speak with Animals. I might have gotten them to ram the bad guy's boat for us too."

More balance control for the DM and more utility for the player.

[Sprain Ogre]

New fighting styles would be nice. Strider wasn't really a two-weapon fighter or an archer really. Tanis was a bit of an archer, I guess. The Justicar is certainly neither of the two. Some more variety would be nice to see.

[Monkeygod]

for stats, it would really depend on the character, but i always try to make Dex one of the higher stats, and i also like to have my Cha at least a 12, since i like my Rangers(Druids too) to interact with animals if possible via Wild Empathy.

as for abilities to make the Ranger better:

1) all for the Ranger-3 for Animal Companion, along with a feat to remove the -3 at some point.

2) Ranger Caster Level should be his level, not half. most spells a Ranger casts are buff spells meaning that the majority would benefit from a longer duration, and that's pretty much it.

3) seems like i am the only one who thinks the Ranger should get all the skills Favored Enemy grants bonuses to as class skills, but it makes perfect sense to me. also, i totally AGREE that Acrobatics should be on their list as well.

4) i said this in another thread i made, but it bears repeating: more archery spells please!!!!

5) YES PLEASE to more combat styles.

[nightflier]

Wildlander from the Midnight campaign setting is a pretty good ranger variant. It allows for more flexibility and adjustment. I would urge Paizo to consider something like that for their ranger. The player in my campaign flatly refused to try 3.p.0.3 ranger and opted for Midnight version.

[quest-master]

Perhaps instead of combat style, the ranger should just get a bonus Combat Feat (The name is staying but the mechanic is not - in the beta it's just going to be used to refer to feats a fighter normally gets as fighter bonus feats). This would simplify things greatly and let everyone customize how they want their ranger to fight.

[Gray]

I'd like to add an additional option to Hunter's Bond at 4th Level. It would be similar to the Spiritual Bond feature for Paladin's but it would be an Elemental Spirit. The ranger could summon this elemental spirit to her weapon which would add bonuses for the corresponding element to his/her weapon (melee and ranged).

[MarkusTay]

Personally, I'd like an option to take the 'other path' later in the Ranger's progression, in lieu of something else. Why can't a Ranger be both a good bowmen and fight two-weapon style in melee? Not at low levels, but a 20th level ranger should be able to do both.

I love that we get more choices in Pathfinder then we got in basic 3e, but I'd like the option of later persuiing the "paths not taken", without having to multi back into the same class. It would also give players another reason to stick with a core class, rather then PrCing out the first chance they get.