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This is an issue that comes up time and time again in my 3.5 game sessions. To me and most of the folks I've discussed it with, Intimidate should not only be based on CHA. Perhaps, dependent on race or class, STR is more appropriate.
Case in point, the typical have a half-orc barbarian is loaded for bear with lots of points place in STR. However, he has a very low CHA because (a) it does not fit the character concept and (b) half-orcs are at a -2 CHA. With this in mind, does it make sense that a diminutive gnome bard is more threatening and intimidating half-orc barbarian? No.
One can make the argument that the gnome bard is telling the opponent what his friend, the unwashed brute of a half-orc with the greataxe, will do to him if he does not capitulate; but it still does not ring true.
In the A-Team, if Face is not present, isn't B.A. Barracus (Mr. T.) still pretty damn intimidating? Can't he get people to do what he wants without Face? I think so. ;)
So perhaps in PF-RPG, certain races (half-orc & dwarf) and certain classes (barbarian, fighter & maybe ranger) can use STR as their base Intimdate attribute/modifier instead of CHA.
Now, I know this opens up a whole can of worms for race/class-based alternative base attributes for skill modifiers. But, as long as we are trying to fix 3.5, peharps this is one place to tweak?
Thanks for you consideration, comments and even flames. :) Most importantly, thanks for putting up with a 1980s pop-culture reference!
Doug
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This is an issue that comes up time and time again in my 3.5 game sessions. To me and most of the folks I've discussed it with, Intimidate should not only be based on CHA. Perhaps, dependent on race or class, STR is more appropriate.
<snip>
One can make the argument that the gnome bard is telling the opponent what his friend, the unwashed brute of a half-orc with the greataxe, will do to him if he does not capitulate; but it still does not ring true.
In the A-Team, if Face is not present, isn't B.A. Barracus (Mr. T.) still pretty damn intimidating? Can't he get people to do what he wants without Face? I think so. ;)
I think this is kind of a bad example, since B.A. pretty clearly has decent Charisma in the context of the series, and maxed out ranks in Intimidate. Moving on from that, though... ;)
Charisma is the ability to portray yourself as you want people to see you. Intimidate is the ability to seem scary, which definitely falls under the purview of Charisma. The simple fact is that big muscles and big weapons do not make someone scary by themselves; attitude makes people scary.
The high Charisma gnome bard using Intimidate on his foe is scary because he's *got* to have something going on to be so damn confident. Conversely, the low Charisma half-orc waving his axe around and sort of drooling is sort of scary because he's dangerous, but more annoying than genuinely intimidating because he's pretty clearly incompetent.
Is the gnome actually able to back up his threats? Is the half-orc actually incompetent? "Maybe not" on both counts, but that's what people see because of the differences in Charisma.
As a real-life example, I have a buddy who frequently tries to use his big frame, muscles and gruff demeanor to be intimidating, but he's just not scary because he kind of mumbles, has a bland voice, and doesn't know how to "sell" his body language. Conversely, I have a female friend who might be 90 pounds soaking wet, but when she puts a pointed fingernail under someone's chin and tells them to listen up, they damn well listen up because they suddenly believe - against all observation and common sense - that this tiny little girl is now going to whoop their ass.
There's already a feat as a nod to the desire to make Intimidate based on Strength instead of Charisma. If you like, you can view that as learning how to make your physical threats seem viable, like crushing a helmet in your bare hands in front of someone's face without breaking a sweat. From the other side of that, if you could manage that particular action, personally I'd just give you a bonus on a normal Charisma-based Intimidate check. Circumstance bonuses are your friend.
Thus endeth the lecture. Peace.
Jeremy Puckett
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Excellent points Jeremy. That is the rub. I see both sides of the argument. I agree that just being a big dumb brute is not just enough to Intimidate. And, I know lots of smaller people who make me wary and I am a 275+ lb. former football player, bouncer and martial artist. So, I get ya. :)
My POV is that, as heroic PCs, Fighters, Barbarians and maybe Rangers would be taught or naturally learn to use their menacing physical presence to their advantage in "negotiations". So, this should be an option for them. Also, inherently war-like races (half-orcs and dwarves) would have this as a natural part of their culture.
Doug
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Arnold Schwarzenneger in Pumping Iron, totally got inside Lou Ferigno's head. He said something like, "I want to let him know that when we're out there, I am the father and he is the little boy."
So, yes; all things beig equal,...
However, Lou Ferigno's not going to be psyched out by your average guy with the gift of gab who can bench 150 lbs.
Well, there is that Feat whose name escapes me that lets you convert the CHA base for Intimidate to STR (it's in Pathfinder, I just forget its name).
Yep there is - Intimidating Prowess
Intimidating Prowess
Your physical might is intimidating to others.
Benefit: Add your Strength modifier to Intimidate skill
checks instead of your Charisma modifier.I'm pretty much in agreement on the Intimidate Skill staying a Charisma skill - its very much that whole "iron fist in the velvet glove" mechanic, the threat of the act, not the act itself.
As Bill the Butcher put it:
"Fear. Fearsome acts. A man steals from me, I cut off his hand. If he offends me, I cut out his tongue. If he stands up against me, I cut off his head, stick it on a pike and lift it up for all to see. A spectacle of fearsome acts. That's what maintains the order of things. Fear!"
Thought I'd throw in my 2 coppers worth!
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Why not? I can't even bench that much and I've put the fear of God into people many times my burly simply by making them think that it'd cause them too much pain and suffering to bring it on. They saw me on equal terms because they were too afraid of forks in their kidneys, fingers in their eyes, and other "low blow" tricks that little guys who are used to fighting big guys do. They knew they could beat me, that wasn't the question at all.Arnold Schwarzenneger in Pumping Iron, totally got inside Lou Ferigno's head. He said something like, "I want to let him know that when we're out there, I am the father and he is the little boy."
So, yes; all things beig equal,...
However, Lou Ferigno's not going to be psyched out by your average guy with the gift of gab who can bench 150 lbs.
Okay, and there's crazy people that can also bench 250 lbs.
I knew one; he was a walking talking Chick tract given form.
One point that no one has made: it's certainly possible to be rationally afraid of something that's not particularly scary in and of itself. E.g.:
* five-year-old child = not really scary
* five-year-old child waving around a loaded gun = inspires a certain amount of natural caution
One point that no one has made: it's certainly possible to be rationally afraid of something that's not particularly scary in and of itself. E.g.:
* five-year-old child = not really scary
* five-year-old child waving around a loaded gun = inspires a certain amount of natural caution
Very true.
Said five year old child with slightly crooked neck posture and croaking, hollow voice... very intimidating
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I would also prefer to see Intimidate based on Strength. I totally get that in real life intimidation is more about presence than physicality, but in the game we've already got two Charisma based ways to influence people - Bluff and Diplomacy. I'd like to see at least one way to influence NPCs based on another ability score. Intimidate (Str) seem s like the most logical choice.
The Pathfinder Charisma > Strength feat is a good second-best patch. I could also see an Cha > Int feat for someone who can use cold logic to freak you out, maybe call it Clever Interrogator or something.
Actually, a bunch of ability switching feats might be fun. Ex: switch Bluff to Int and it becomes Baffle :)
If Reputation and Morale mechanics were added to the game, then you could see some influence for the big muscled combatants in these kinds of situations.
The main issue I see here is that Intimidate is (like most skills) used for different situations. Threatening someone in combat to demoralize them is the purview of front line Fighter. I recall reading a great post by someone over in ENWorld about how actual combat was won by demoralizing your opponent... hitpoints kind of represent the nicks and scrapes you take before being demoralized, fear setting in.
Most kills in battles occurred when one side was routed and started to run away... people can take a lot of hits normally, but when their mind isn't up for it, the same hit can take them down (not to mention they might not be in the best of situation to "turn the blow").
In this sense, Fighter (and other frontliners) really seem like they should be able to Intimidate the crap out of their opponents. Not to mention withstand being Intimidated.
Ever stand near a really tall person you don't know, say.. nearing 7 feet tall? They don't even have to be well built or anything, but when they get angry or start moving arms around quickly while gesturing during angry speech, there's a feeling smaller people get in their gut that sets them ready for Fight or Flight.
And that's someone that's not even angry at you.
Imagine facing something taller than your room you are in right now, imagine it. Imagine that he's built too, twice as wide, etc. Now imagine he's bloodthirsty and trying to kill you. This is scary situation, that would set most people with a cold feeling in their gut.
If Fighters can saunter up to that and still act in perfect condition... well, they've got something that other don't. This is represented in higher Hitpoints and BAB of course, but if we can expand on this concept we can give the Frontliners so much more.
And that doesn't have to end with just a bonus to demoralizing your enemies. Expanding on this concept could give Fighters something outside of combat. A Fighter facing your foe head on can inspire others to not be as afraid... the real point of having a defender, to hide behind him or to know that he's got your back. General combat fear could be lessened for the entire group, and aftereffects could be lessened by the Fighter weathering it for the group.
Everyone's been in highschool before... tearing down another group to raise your own happens at all levels (from teasing the weirdos, to 'stomp the yard').
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Now this doesn't help with using Intimidate for social encounters. Getting someone to do something for you takes more than just demoralizing them. You have to convince them that you aren't just dangerous right now. A good Intimidation would get someone to fear repercussions for not doing what you ask later, as well as if you find out they lied about their information, etc.
Sure the kid waving the gun, or the Orc with the axe, is dangerous right now while you are caught in their field of ire... but when you are safely back in your sanctuary, surrounded by your guards? There's the difference.
Fighters should be good at demoralizing, but general social encounters, not necessarily (at least, not just as a factor of their personal strength).
Most if not all skills can and maybe should allow an alternate stat, much like your example above... I don't think you should need to burn a feat for something like that.
My take on Skill stats and alternates: (untried)
Acrobatics Dex/Str
Appraise Int/Wis
Bluff Cha/Int
Climb Str/Dex
Craft Int/Wis
Diplomacy Cha/Wis
Disable Device Dex/Int
Disguise Cha/Wis
Escape Artist Dex/Str
Fly Dex/Con
Handle Animal Cha/Int
Heal Wis/Int
Intimidate Cha/Str
Knowledge Int/Wis
Linguistics Int/Wis
Perception Wis/Int
Perform Cha/Wis
Profession Wis/Int
Ride Dex/Wis
Sense Motive Wis/Cha
Sleight of Hand Dex/Cha
Spellcraft Int/Wis
Stealth Dex/Cha
Survival Wis/Con
Swim Str/Con
Use Magic Device Cha/Int
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To clarify, I am not suggesting that STR should replace CHA and the base attribute for Intimidate. Rather, I am suggesting that, based on particular conditions and without a requisite feat, STR should be an alternative to CHA.
Questions (and I'm just thinking out loud here, not shooting down you idea)-
1) Okay, let's say we do that for Intimidate. Only Intimidate? Or for other skills too, like the list above? It seems like a potentially slippery slope. Giving all skills an alternative ability would make keeping track of skill bonuses more difficult.
2) Or do you totally open it up and allow players to base it on any ability score they can justify? Maybe Intimidate is the worst offender here, but I can see Intimidating someone based of Str, Dex, Con (drinking something weird then saying 'top that' as you slam the mug down), Int, Cha ... not sure about Wis. This could work in a home game full or real role players but is probably too lose for a set of core rules.
3) In one of the other Alpha forums I toyed with the idea of two abilities per skill, not either/or but both. I think it's a cool idea ... but it totally changes the system. Might be fun in a new game, but Pathfinder has to compatible with 3.5.
Intimidate is NOT the ability to scare people. Intimidate is the ability to get people to do what you want them to do simply because you want them to, even though they don't want to for their own sake. Fright is one way of accomplishing that, but it isn't the only way.
The best example I can think of for Intimidate as a Charisma skill is this: Who's more intimidating, Guido the big dumb goon who makes people sleep with the fishes, or Don Corlione, the smooth-talking 'gentleman' who commands hundreds of Guidos?
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The best example I can think of for Intimidate as a Charisma skill is this: Who's more intimidating, Guido the big dumb goon who makes people sleep with the fishes, or Don Corlione, the smooth-talking 'gentleman' who commands hundreds of Guidos?
Exactly. Think of the evil lord sitting on a throne. Does he Intimidate you by getting up and throttling you or does he do it by staring at you.
I do however agree with the other side of the fence. There is the street thug intimidating a commoner into paying him protection using muscle.
I think there needs to be a way to use either. I would say leave it CHA, but put it into Intimidate that after 5 ranks you can use STR or CHA. That way, for the brutes, he has enough social skill to make up his lack of grace with muscle. Think Rocky in Rocky 1.
It was pointed out in an old Sage Advice (3.0) somewhere that a gnome farmer is more intimidating than a half-orc barbarian. I think the response was that if the DM felt it appropriate then STR should definitely take the place of CHA. I'll see if I can find it and confirm that though.
That said, I think that maybe a note in the skill description mentioning that STR is also an option might be good.
The best example I can think of for Intimidate as a Charisma skill is this: Who's more intimidating, Guido the big dumb goon who makes people sleep with the fishes, or Don Corlione, the smooth-talking 'gentleman' who commands hundreds of Guidos?
Exactly. As I was reading through this thread, I immediately thought of Christopher Walken in Suicide Kings. He spends a good chunk of the movie tied to a chair, and still manages to be very intimidating. It's not necessarily what you look like and what you say, but how it's said.
That being said, I'm not entirely against racial abilities that allow for Str to be the ability modifier for Intimidate. Seems to make perfect sense for half-orcs, especially since most people would assume they have no qualms about carrying through with any threats they make.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Well that's the beauty of Circumstance bonuses... Your half orc's eating glass while threatening the local merchant lord, I'd give him a +2 to his check. Are you holding me upside down by one ankle from a 50' tower... there's a +2 bonus for sure.
But a real intimidation machine would be the one being held upside down by the ankle and say, "Drop me. If you don't you'll find that you wished you had."
Well for what its worth, two coppers, hopefully.
The solution to the problem has already been given by Pathfinder with the feat. However someone may not want to spend a feat on this (though I would think it a good investment).
May I suggest this as a possible option.
Customizing Weapons to add indimidation.
I think Warlords of Accordlands had something close to this by adding a cost to a weapon to make them look cool, forked dagger, weavey weapons called flame toung or dragon toung, other stuff. No real mechanical differnce other then price but it made the weapon and the owner and character concept cooler.
Now in my suggestion not only do they look cool they are scary too. Say +1 per +25 gold pices max of +4. In some of the above you can also say that such a weapon, say surrated, gives an extra +2 points of damage after the seconed round due to internal damage but also gives a +1 to indimidation because of what it looks like. Combine everyting for a new total price and there you go.
This can work for armor as well. Full Plate with horn spikes sharpened gives +2 and cost an extra 50 gold.
And to maintin this player will have to make a craft weapon roll once a day to keep it looking scary. Craft no longer is just for makeing but also for maintaining, something I always wanted more emphises in the game on anyway.
The above can work well for you Half-Orc as you can add a templent.
Half-Orc weapon, crude but well built alays a +1 to initimdation skills against humans. Always cost 25 more gold. Then you can still add the above +4.
Elven weapon, always graceful and initimadating always get +1 against Orcs ect. ect.
This would also be a solution for low level/cost treasure, not to mention the palyer who wants to buy something special at 1st level. And never mind what this would do for low level magic games.
Pathfinder folks feel free to take this ball and run with it.
What about running into battle with no armour? The Picts often fought "skyclad" or naked - and its well documented that the mighty Roman legions found hordes of naked, woad painted Scots running at them highly intimidating...
Circumstance bonus? Feat? Rage Ability tied to nakkid intimidation lol - I have no idea where to begin on this one, but thought I'd throw it into the mix...
Lets not forget that you get a +4/-4 penalty for every size category up/down from your target when intimidating. So the half-orc has a +4 relative to the gnome. Now, the half-orc could have completely dump statted charisma and the gnome maxed it, resulting in a 6 to 20 gap, which is a net ability modifier differnce of +7, leaving the gnome +3 ahead.
But thats a "could". Its an example illustrated with a double extreme. What if we compare the "average"? That would be an 8 for the half-orc, and a 12 for the gnome. A 2 point difference, which after size modifiers puts the half-orc 2 points ABOVE the gnome, as he should be.
I will say this: I frequently fall onto some of my old White Wolf experiences when dealing with stuff like Intimidate, and just consider there to be two scores to take into account: a skill modifier, which is ranks+magic+feats+etc, and the ability modifier, which is the ability most appropriate to the situation. Climbing in zero gravity? Dex. Catching a murderer by getting into his head and following the clues already found? Sense motive + intel.
Now, another solution I sometimes use is having a first check set the DC. Say a half-orc is intimidating the local bartender. I let him make a strength check to set the intimdate DC. If he beats 15, the DC is lower, as he does something noticably frightening, like biting off a chunk of a beer stein. The gnome could do the same, but why would he, when he can just make the check at the higher DC, by whispering something in the bartender's ear that makes the man pale. Heck, sometimes I let the gnome roll gather info or knowledge local to see if he has any good blackmail dirt on the bartender.
Anyhow, just my 2cp.
While I can see how some of the arguments above are valid, I would be against any effort to tone down Charisma more than it already is.
For that reason and that reason alone I hope that Intimidate stays based off Charisma.
Lower the number of skills based on the charisma and it becomes an even more useless ability score for most classes.
I try and use as many ability scores and skills when ever I can, by rewarding the characters (and players) who have ranks in Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate when ever I can, it makes them feel like they have not wasted a high ability score or some skill points in a none combat place.
I call for diplomacy checks or let them take a 10 when ever the characters spend time socially interacting with NPC. With 4 of the party of 7 using Charisma as a dump ability, it certainly makes them work harder in those role playing situations. In fact one of the players main personality traits is based off the fact he always says the wrong thing in social situations.
Q. Does this dress make my bum look big?
His A. No the Fat makes your bum look big.
Does it back fire? Sometimes, last night they caught a hated enemy who they wanted to question. This required an intimidate role. After looking blankly at each other for a few moments the Dwarf beheaded him. This has now made the 8 charisma Barbarian look at putting ranks into Intimidate at the next level.
I agree with much of what has already been said: I think it should remain Charisma based, and we should keep the feat that allows one to use Strength instead. (Incidentally, I'm a fan of such feats generally, such as weapon finesse, or the feat that allows one to use Dex to open locks, or the feat that allows one to use Wisdom to hit, etc.).
Someone mentioned Christopher Walken earlier--great example of someone who isn't that strong but who can be very intimidating due to his Charisma. I also wanted to mention Jack Nicholson...say, in "A Few Good Men." He wasn't particularly muscle-bound, but he was very intimidating.
Or consider "The Princess Bride." Who was more intimidating: the huge Fezzig, or the charismatic Wesley? Okay, arguably both are intimidating...Fezzig *was* able to part the crowd by commanding everyone to move, but Wesley was particularly intimidating even while still recovering from having been "mostly dead." He certainly scared Prince Humperdink. And generally speaking, Fezzig just seemed too nice.
So I think there's certainly plenty of precedent for Charisma being used to intimidate.
We've always houseruled that you could pick one or the other and keep it that way.
Use words to intimadate: CHA
Or bully them in: STR
etc...
Didn't know there was a new feat for that though... have to implement that >:D
What about running into battle with no armour? The Picts often fought "skyclad" or naked - and its well documented that the mighty Roman legions found hordes of naked, woad painted Scots running at them highly intimidating...
Craft war paint. Wouldn't you pay to put war paint on Kira Knightly in Author? System still works.
God knows I'd pay the gold to paint her.
[QUOTE
Or consider "The Princess Bride." Who was more intimidating: the huge Fezzig, or the charismatic Wesley? Okay, arguably both are intimidating...Fezzig *was* able to part the crowd by commanding everyone to move, but Wesley was particularly intimidating even while still recovering from having been "mostly dead." He certainly scared Prince Humperdink. And generally speaking, Fezzig just seemed too nice.
Two CP for the first Princess Bride referance of the year.
Everytime debates like this come up, I just remember the DMG sidebar on page 33: Skills with Different Abilities and I'm pretty much set.
No feat necessary. No major change of the rules. Just a recognition that the DM can recognize certain variations as the situation warrants them.
I do think that, by default, Intimidation should remain a Charisma skill.
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I would have once agreed but I had a player with a rouge who used intimidate all the time. He'd tell the shopkeep what he'd do to his mother to get a deal, the barmaid what he'd do to her unless she gave him info, the hobgoblin he's fighting how he'd slowly butcher him piece by piece once he knocked him out. That takes chr., not str. One of the problem players have understanding intimidate as a chr. based check and not str. is association with the classic bully. The classic bully who beat people up in school might have used str., that's for sure. But I generally found that a bully is making up for his LACK of strength, and uses insults and taunts to make someone scared of him, not just a cracking of fists and a showing of muscles. You also need to know that someone would be scared of your muscles. I also think of intimidate as an interrogation method. Think of law and order. Sometimes they do use physical prowess to get the truth, but you need to be able to read someone to do that, you need to be confident in your own physical capability. I could be some hulking monster, (like Mr.T) but if go up to you and say "I..I...I'm gonna, um, hurt you. Yeah. You'll...you'll see," you might be a little scared, but, pssh, I also looks like I'm going to go home and cry to momma! Or if the Blackguard in full plate comes up to you and says "HEYYYY BOYS! That shield doesn't match those pants!"
Ooh scary.
Besides the STR. mechanic doesn't work in lots of situations. You can intimidate someone normally while hidden, but not with STR. You can't intimidate someone when you're all bound up and hanging upside-down, and ogres will never can be scared of you now.
What people saying Strength for intimidate don't understand is that the Intimidate skill goes beyond just scaring the local bakery for protection money.
The stranger who intimidates the local merchant can hand the merchant his gun, and the merchant will not ever shoot the stranger. The stranger can even go so far as to take a sleep in the merchant's bed and tell to merchant to wake him if anybody comes buy. The Intimidated merchant will not decide to kill the stranger in his sleep with the loaned gun, because he is considered friendly towards the stranger.
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Everytime debates like this come up, I just remember the DMG sidebar on page 33: Skills with Different Abilities and I'm pretty much set.
No feat necessary. No major change of the rules. Just a recognition that the DM can recognize certain variations as the situation warrants them.
I do think that, by default, Intimidation should remain a Charisma skill.
I love that sidebar. Paizo should add something like that. It will cut down on the anectodes. "What about the time my cousin intidimated me with a backflip? This game system sucks!"
Two CP for the first Princess Bride referance of the year.[QUOTE
Or consider "The Princess Bride." Who was more intimidating: the huge Fezzig, or the charismatic Wesley? Okay, arguably both are intimidating...Fezzig *was* able to part the crowd by commanding everyone to move, but Wesley was particularly intimidating even while still recovering from having been "mostly dead." He certainly scared Prince Humperdink. And generally speaking, Fezzig just seemed too nice.
Two CP? Sweet!