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Paizoian got a question see below
Just been reading through the Secrets section of the Guide to Korvosa. and I need some clarification on the text it makes a comment in the text to the effect that a graduate becomes an apprentice after his final exam later in the text it says the following:
Once an applicant becomes an apprentice, she disappears behind te walls of the Acadamae for at least a decade.....For the first 3 years, an apprentice performs unpleasant and dangerous work for the school. These apprentices have few rights and learn nothing useful during 3 years of slave labor....Those who survive the rigor of apprenticeship becomes students. Students spend 7 long years learning the ways of arcane magic.
The problem is the sentence before this is talk about the final exam.
Not sure if the way it was written is messing me up but my take on this is that when an applicant first comes to the school he has to pass an entrance exam and then he becomes an Apprentice and latter a Student and then graduates? Is this correct? if not let me know trying to figure out how this will work for a PC wanting to be a graduate if she is sequistored in the Acadamae working her butt off as an apprentice while at the same time trying to adventure outside the Acadamae.
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You have the right idea. Entrance exam, be a student for a long time, eventually take the final exam.
There are two other issues I've found, however. (1) Students are required to learn to summon and bind devils. The lowest level summoning spell that summons a devil is Summon Monster I (lemure), unless mere fiendish creatures are okay. (2) The only other example of final exam requirements is that Transmuters are required to modify the Hall of Shaping as part of their final exam - and there are no 1st level Transmutation spells that would allow this.
So the write-up for the school doesn't seem to allow graduates to be mere 1st level wizards.
My fix is to eliminate the comments that students can't drop out (particularly since one of the NPCs in the path is an Academae drop-out). 1st level PCs who want to be "Academae Graduates" are instead Academae drop-outs, having run out of money or otherwise been unable to finish their schooling. But if you don't want to do it this way, you may have to ignore some of the other stuff (above) instead; or else assume some of those requirements are "advanced studies" after the official "graduation."
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You have the right idea. Entrance exam, be a student for a long time, eventually take the final exam.
There are two other issues I've found, however. (1) Students are required to learn to summon and bind devils. The lowest level summoning spell that summons a devil is Summon Monster I (lemure), unless mere fiendish creatures are okay. (2) The only other example of final exam requirements is that Transmuters are required to modify the Hall of Shaping as part of their final exam - and there are no 1st level Transmutation spells that would allow this.
So the write-up for the school doesn't seem to allow graduates to be mere 1st level wizards.
I agree with you though I would like to know what James, Eric, Mike or one of the other Paizo staffer's offical answer to this would be, cause I agree with you it doesn't clarify whether they can summon a fiendish creature or that it specifically has to be a devil of some sort.
Creative Director
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Hmm... that is indeed a problem, and one that doesn't have a simple answer. Basically, in order to graduate from the acadamae, you have to be in school for a long time. As a result, the feat "Acadamae Graduate" is kind of a misnomer, since you DO have to be higher level to graduate.
SO: The name of the feat should change to this:
Acadamae Trained
And the flavor isn't that you have graduated, but that you have received some training at the Acadamae. For most PCs, that does mean that your character's a dropout, unless the campaign he's on is starting at higher level, or unless the campaign's first several levels are set IN the Acadamae.
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Alright, let me leap on in here, because I do love to talk about Korvosa and the Acadamae. ^_^
I think Cintra Bristol, as usual, is pretty spot on with her assessment. The areas I disagree with her are behind the cut.
Just been reading through the Secrets section of the Guide to Korvosa. and I need some clarification on the text it makes a comment in the text to the effect that a graduate becomes an apprentice after his final exam later in the text it says the following:
<i>Once an applicant becomes an apprentice, she disappears behind te walls of the Acadamae for at least a decade.....For the first 3 years, an apprentice performs unpleasant and dangerous work for the school. These apprentices have few rights and learn nothing useful during 3 years of slave labor....Those who survive the rigor of apprenticeship becomes students. Students spend 7 long years learning the ways of arcane magic.</i>
The problem is the sentence before this is talk about the final exam.
Not sure if the way it was written is messing me up but my take on this is that when an applicant first comes to the school he has to pass an entrance exam and then he becomes an Apprentice and latter a Student and then graduates? Is this correct? if not let me know trying to figure out how this will work for a PC wanting to be a graduate if she is sequistored in the Acadamae working her butt off as an apprentice while at the same time trying to adventure outside the Acadamae.
Yeah, the order in which I mentioned those is a little wonky. It's not chronological, as you and Cintra guessed.
Chronologically, you're right. It's like this:
Entry test.
3 years of servitude.
7 years of training.
Final exam to graduate.
What happens to those who fail the final exam? *shrug* Some (those who can afford the steep tuition) probably go back and take more classes. Those who can't afford more education... well... it probably doesn't go well for them...
There are two other issues I've found, however. (1) Students are required to learn to summon and bind devils. The lowest level summoning spell that summons a devil is Summon Monster II (lemure), unless mere fiendish creatures are okay.
They are not. Summon monster II is the way to go.
(2) The only other example of final exam requirements is that Transmuters are required to modify the Hall of Shaping as part of their final exam - and there are no 1st level Transmutation spells that would allow this.
That is also correct.
So the write-up for the school doesn't seem to allow graduates to be mere 1st level wizards.
That is correct. The problem with wizard schools is that the graduates are 1st level wimps or higher level legitimately cool wizards. The rules kinda assume the former, although in that case what happens to characters who multiclass into wizard later? Why did the wizard who starts as a wizard have to take 10 years to become 1st level while the adventuring wizard took 10 days? That breaks the verisimilitude, IMO. The problem with the latter, though, is that it basically means starting PCs can never be graduates of wizarding schools. Now, it could certainly be fun to run a campaign where all the characters are students of a wizarding school and the campaign is about them just surviving through to graduation, but most campaigns aren't done along that model. So, as has been the case for more than three decades, this is one of those areas of the world's most popular fantasy roleplaying game where we have to just kind of gloss over the weird discrepancies.
My fix is to eliminate the comments that students can't drop out (particularly since one of the NPCs in the path is an Academae drop-out).
Aww... but I like that part. *sniffle* (That NPC is an exception to the rule, I would say. Like Sean Connery's character in The Rock.) ;)
1st level PCs who want to be "Academae Graduates" are instead Academae drop-outs, having run out of money or otherwise been unable to finish their schooling. But if you don't want to do it this way, you may have to ignore some of the other stuff (above) instead; or else assume some of those requirements are "advanced studies" after the official "graduation."
Another way to do it is to assume that in order to graduate from the Acadamae, students must create new spells that allow them to accomplish their goals. What I mean is, the PH spells are the common spells that eny Tomme, Dhik, or Harri could learn at any school (or even just pick up from adventuring), but in order to graduate from the Acadamae, one of the most prestigious wizarding schools in the world, a student must go beyond the common spells and figure out a way to fulfill the requirements. If I were to go this route as the GM (and I kinda like where this idea is taking me so I might do this if I ever run a Korvosa campaign), I would require a player who wants an Acadamae graduate to create a spell (or in the case of transmuters, two spells) that fulfill the requirements. These simple 1st-level spells might do what more powerful spells do but in a more limited capacity. What that means depends on the GM and player, but I think it would be kinda fun for Acadamae graduate characters to have their own personal spells. :)
I agree with you though I would like to know what James, Eric, Mike or one of the other Paizo staffer's offical answer to this would be, cause I agree with you it doesn't clarify whether they can summon a fiendish creature or that it specifically has to be a devil of some sort.
Your wish is my command. ^_^
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Here's one thought which occured to me; as part of their seven years of training, maybe some Acadamae students are sometimes expected to go out and carry out 'research' in Korvosa or run errands for their teachers/mentors? In fact given the unstable political/civil situation in Korvosa during Curse of the Crimson Throne, I can see that the headmaster might even order some students to go out to discover what they can and to try to bring an end to any chaos which is a threat to the Acadamae (and city). They would naturally be expected to report back on a regular basis, and when they visited to usually leave their 'friends' outside the Acadamae walls. This option could conceivably have some impact on Pathfinder #12, where I'm guessing that it may be possible to recruit Acadamae support in dealing with the crisis by then coming to a head.
That is also a cool idea. :)
A somewhat easy way to remedy this problem is to design
Regarding the Acadamae, if pupils are sent there (as if it were a boarding school?) at a sufficiently early age, by the time that they graduate, they might be at about the right age of your average starting PC wizard. After surviving seven years at the Acadamae, I might expect them to be a bit higher than first level though.
Here's one thought which occured to me; as part of their seven years of training, maybe some Acadamae students are sometimes expected to go out and carry out 'research' in Korvosa or run errands for their teachers/mentors? In fact given the unstable political/civil situation in Korvosa during Curse of the Crimson Throne, I can see that the headmaster might even order some students to go out to discover what they can and to try to bring an end to any chaos which is a threat to the Acadamae (and city). They would naturally be expected to report back on a regular basis, and when they visited to usually leave their 'friends' outside the Acadamae walls. This option could conceivably have some impact on Pathfinder #12, where I'm guessing that it may be possible to recruit Acadamae support in dealing with the crisis by then coming to a head.
You might also create some kind of Acadamae template, something that gives the play Spell-Like-Abilities, but also includes a LA, so they can fulfill their requirements, and may have some abilities that they can use per day allowing them to fulfill the requirements of graduation, and still come out as a level 1 Wizard, who also is considerably more powerful than a normal level 1 Wizard.
Perhaps the Acadamae template allows them to summon an Imp during one encounter per day. Something along those lines, and transmuters may have access to more advanced spells on a per day basis as well, accounting for their LA.
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Hmm... that is indeed a problem, and one that doesn't have a simple answer. Basically, in order to graduate from the acadamae, you have to be in school for a long time. As a result, the feat "Acadamae Graduate" is kind of a misnomer, since you DO have to be higher level to graduate.
SO: The name of the feat should change to this:
Acadamae Trained
And the flavor isn't that you have graduated, but that you have received some training at the Acadamae. For most PCs, that does mean that your character's a dropout, unless the campaign he's on is starting at higher level, or unless the campaign's first several levels are set IN the Acadamae.
Here's one thought which occured to me; as part of their seven years of training, maybe some Acadamae students are sometimes expected to go out and carry out 'research' in Korvosa or run errands for their teachers/mentors? In fact given the unstable political/civil situation in Korvosa during Curse of the Crimson Throne, I can see that the headmaster might even order some students to go out to discover what they can and to try to bring an end to any chaos which is a threat to the Acadamae (and city). They would naturally be expected to report back on a regular basis, and when they visited to usually leave their 'friends' outside the Acadamae walls. This option could conceivably have some impact on Pathfinder #12, where I'm guessing that it may be possible to recruit Acadamae support in dealing with the crisis by then coming to a head.
Both of these suggestions are great however I think I will head to a middleground and say that the feat is "Acadamae Trained" and use Charles' suggest of a Student who has to go out into the community every once and awhile and report back to school to his masters. Only question this brings up would be does the Acadamae play any major role in the AP aside than being a flavorful place for wizards to be trained at? I don't remember if Eric, James or any of the other paizo staffers had said anything about whether it did or not...
As a 1st level specialist wizard can’t (usually) be an Acadamae graduate, why not suggest the school have a program to allow continuingly enrolled students (in their senior year – and ‘close to graduation’) time outside of the school grounds-proper? In this light, it might actually be a test of practical value; or another graduation test. Each Hall assigns a particular task that must be complete prior to taking The Final exam (i.e. summoning and binding a devil). If, upon their return, they still haven’t masters the art; then they fail. (As is written on page 53 – “failing to graduate and dropping out are not options.” => don’t re-write this brilliant dark reality behind learning magic there.)
If passing the exam is a demonstration of the ability to use magic, wouldn't successfully casting off a scroll suffice as well? Hence you COULD be 1st level and a graduate. It would still take place in a normal exam area, be supervised, etc.
If passing the exam is a demonstration of the ability to use magic, wouldn't successfully casting off a scroll suffice as well? Hence you COULD be 1st level and a graduate. It would still take place in a normal exam area, be supervised, etc.
I instinctively feel casting off a scroll is a little like cheating off’ve notes in an exam. Guaranteed, it “can” be done – but whether instructors condone this sort of act, I’d be hard pressed to accept. Simply, those professors who’ve been teaching a prospective wizard for the past 10 years would pretty much have a substantial inclination into your abilities ... wherein, if you were to pull out something far more advanced than you’d even shown capacity for; they might get a little suspicious. And, add to this the fear all Acadamae students have for failing to graduate ... let’s just say they’ll most probably do things by the book.
If there’s a player who’s adamant about playing an Acadamae specialist at 1st level; they should be willing to accept that they’re still “officially” an apprentice-student in the school. Whether they’re on summer break; or out on an extended mission (giving them leeway to adventure) directed by the head-of-halls; that’s a decision between the player and DM. But either way, it’s something that should be addressed. Nevertheless, it only goes to add further detail and depth into one’s character history. (Always a good thing.)
If passing the exam is a demonstration of the ability to use magic, wouldn't successfully casting off a scroll suffice as well? Hence you COULD be 1st level and a graduate. It would still take place in a normal exam area, be supervised, etc.I instinctively feel casting off a scroll is a little like cheating off’ve notes in an exam. Guaranteed, it “can” be done – but whether instructors condone this sort of act, I’d be hard pressed to accept. Simply, those professors who’ve been teaching a prospective wizard for the past 10 years would pretty much have a substantial inclination into your abilities ... wherein, if you were to pull out something far more advanced than you’d even shown capacity for; they might get a little suspicious. And, add to this the fear all Acadamae students have for failing to graduate ... let’s just say they’ll most probably do things by the book.
If there’s a player who’s adamant about playing an Acadamae specialist at 1st level; they should be willing to accept that they’re still “officially” an apprentice-student in the school. Whether they’re on summer break; or out on an extended mission (giving them leeway to adventure) directed by the head-of-halls; that’s a decision between the player and DM. But either way, it’s something that should be addressed. Nevertheless, it only goes to add further detail and depth into one’s character history. (Always a good thing.)
I was meaning that the exam could be casting off a scroll successfully. you have to be able to cast spells to be able to do so, it would be a gauge of skill in itself. The ability to wrestle with magic above what you can normally do and, in the case of mishaps, knowledge of the 2 edged nature that entails. It'd be easy to see cases where 'shoein' graduates do not, and lead to rumors of foul play, bribery and favortism, stuff like that. Anyways, it was just a thought, if you don't like it, you don't have to use it. was simply brainstorming.
Actually, I came up with a similar thought recently; but struggled to ground it. I concluded that the Professors must recognise “use magical devise” as a skill – and so, wouldn’t want someone graduating through the ranks based purely on a con.
This question is particularly interesting as I'm about to start running an in-depth PbP Curse of the Crimson Throne Campaign; and one of my players is keen to play a Graduate of the Acadamae. I told them, that there’s no problem, as long as they illustrated exactly how they’ve “graduated” at first level. <wicked grin> I haven’t told them that I’d be open to discuss other options in the case they can’t! :-P
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You know, I assumed that the secret to graduating was to actually make a deal with a devil to get them to show up for your test. I figured it was something you had to find out and agree to and that, ultimately, was the big secret there. That to pass the test, you have to give in to being bound to a devil in some way. A few especially crafty mages may find a way around that, but it seems like, while that would let them pass, it obviously wouldn't endear anyone to them. I figured only the ones actually making deals deserve any sort of recognition from the headmasters. Probably, a few tieflings on the grounds have genuine connections and I know some of the teachers do. Some of the noble students likely have said connections as well and they might even recruit others for a few of the devils. It could be this whole thing.
It makes the most sense to me.
Regarding running errands and the adventure path... Here's how it might work in a campaign: "You! Yes, you, you nitwit apprentice! That riot is disturbing me. Take care of it, or feel my wrath."
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In the dorms one night, before the big test;
"Ha. Any loser can summon a Lemure for eighteen beats of a heart, I'm going to conjure up an Erinyes!"
"You're just an apprentice, that's not even possible. And the moron who tried using an illusion to pretend he'd summoned an Osyluth was fed to a real one as an example..."
[mystical gibberish follows, a surprised looking Erinyes appears in the conjuring circle, facing the skeptical student, starts to say, "Wh..." and vanishes in a puff of sulphur, all in less than a second.]
"Dude. She saw my face and she looked pissed! NOT cool..."
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Just tossing out idea's as I have been thinking about this as well. It is possible the school is not year around. What if they have summer breaks or what have you. Then if the group is ok with it, they could adventure and during the cold months came back and hunker down for the winter. Wizard goes back to school.
Personally i am leaning towards to be a full graduate a wizard would have to be 3rd or 5th. But likely I will adapt something like the above, or say that they can leave the school after a complete year and return later. Especially if they lack the funds to finish the school.
just brainstorming in public.
...Alright, let me leap on in here, because I do love to talk about Korvosa and the Acadamae. ^_^
I think Cintra Bristol, as usual, is pretty spot on with her assessment. The areas I disagree with her are behind the cut.
** spoiler omitted **
Okay, Here is a silly, somewhat useful new spell that may fit the flavor. Let me know what you think.
Summon Fidzit
School conjuration (summoning); Level antipaladin 1, bard 1, cleric/oracle 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, summoner 1, witch 1
CASTING
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, F/DF (a tiny bag and a small candle)
EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect one summoned creature
Duration 1 minute/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
DESCRIPTION
This spell Summons one (1) Fidzit. You can command this creature to take dictation, or to copy writing from one source on to another. A Fidzit can only copy non-magical text or illustrations, not magical writings (such as spellbooks and scrolls). A Fidzit can copy or write 250 words per minute, one (1) detailed illustration every 5 minutes, or one (1) minor illustration every minute. The Fidzit does not translate the writings for you. If you can not comprehend the original source material, you gain no benefit towards understanding the copy.
Fidzit CR 1/8
XP 50
LE Diminutive outsider (devil, evil, extraplanar, lawful)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft., detect good, see in darkness;
AC 16, touch 16, flat-footed 14 (+2 Dex, +4 size)
hp 1 (1d4-1)
Fort +0, Ref +4, Will +0
Offense
Speed 5 ft., fly 30 ft. (good)
Melee bite +6 (1d3–6)
Space 1 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 1st)
Constant—detect good
Statistics
Str 1, Dex 15, Con 6, Int 2,
Wis 10, Cha 4
Base Atk +0; CMB –2; CMD 3
Feats Weapon Finesse
Skills Fly +16, Perception +4;
Racial Modifier +4 Perception
Ecology
Environment any (Hell)
Organization solitary, pair, or flock (3–10)
Treasure none
Fidzits are the clerks of Hell. They are the least of all the devils. A Fidzit can copy or create any document at 250 words per minute. There is a lot of red tape in Hell!
Brian
Honestly I like to think that there'd be multiple ways to pass. Scrolls and Cheating are probably ok, but a big secret. I'd imagine that craftyness plays heavily into the final test. I also like the idea that they spend their 7 years learning basic magic and being everyones work-slave, copying texts and scrolls and doing minor magic for all those years, are kicked out at level 1 after the 10 years and given a time limit to come back and take their final exam (either as said above a task based on the master mage or after just having the moxy to take the test). I like the idea of "You can take it now or within 1 year, if you do not there will be consequences!". Also the higher powered demon and transmutation you can do the more prestige and honors you graduate with. They want powerful graduates or nothing afterall. So I would treat the feat as Waiting to take the exam.