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So after watching a 3.5 Monk get clobbered by the new Combat manuever rules in my last session, I was eager to see how Jason would redo the monk. And for the most part I approve greatly. The Ki abilities alone bring the monk fully into the top tier of core classes, and I cannot wait to unload an eight strike flurry of blows on someone. It will be awesome. That said, the one thing i really wanted to see fixed is still broken.
Here's an example of my problem with the Monk vs Combat Manuevers:
Bandar is a 1st level Elven Monk with the following stats: Str 10, Dex 16, Wis 16. Bandar's starting AC is 16. Bandar's starting CMB is +0
Zurg is an 1st level Orc Warrior with an 18 Str and 10 Dex. He has a morningstar (weilded two handed). His attack is: +5 morningstar (1d8+6). Zurg and Bandar get into a fight. Zurg wins initiative.
If Zurg simply swings at Bandar with his morningstar, he has to roll an 11 to hit Bandar. If Zurg decides to Trip Bandar, he provokes an AOO and has to roll a 10 to successfully trip Bandar.
Wait...what? The super nimble Elven Monk whose amazing insight enables him to easily evade attacks despite his total lack of armor is easier to trip than to simply hit, when tripping someone is supposedly a much more complex maneuver than simply bashing on them?
That doesn't make any sense!
Let's advance Bandar forward to 3rd level, and now Bandar has Manuever Training. Bandar's AC is 16, and his CMB is +3. Zurg needs to roll an 11 to hit Bandar, and a 13 to trip him.
Advance Bandar to 10th level (all stat adds go to Wis): AC 19, CMB +10
Advance Bandar to 20th level (all stat adds go to Wis): AC 22, CMB +20
Now let's try something different. Instead of gaining Manuever Training, let's say that Bandar can add his AC bonus (WIS + level/4) to his CMB from first level.
Bandar at first level: AC 16, CMB +3
Bandar at third level: AC 16, CMB +5
Bandar at tenth level: AC 19, CMB +12
Bandar at twentieth level: AC 22, CMB: +23
Not a huge difference, but it prevents the oddity of fast, nimble monks that are easier to trip than hit at low levels, while reinforcing the central concept of the monk, that their insight makes them deadly fighters.
I'd love to hear any thoughts on this.
If you want your agile character to be better at resisting combat maneuvers, take the Agile Maneuvers feat. Then it would take an 11 to hit your monk and a 13 to trip him.
Problem solved (sort of).
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It's definitely an interesting idea, but I don't know if it's really necessary, since there are already three ways in Pathfinder to resolve the matter (four, if you count Improved Reflexes so you don't wind up in the situation in the first place): Agile Maneuvers, Defensive Combat Training, Combat Reflexes. Having any one of those would have meant that tripping Bandar was a bad idea, and one of them is even a bonus feat option.
The CMB system makes it very clear that any character that might want Weapon Finesse should absolutely take Agile Maneuvers; I don't see this changing any time soon. Class-based fixes don't really seem vital to me as a result, but Jason may feel differently.
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Selk: I think it does make sense, simply because the monk si supposed to be a trained martial artist, and it seems natural that he would be better at doing complex manuevers like joint locks (grapples), pressure point attacks (disarms), breaking objects (sunder) and leg sweeps (trips). All of this fits well with how I imagine the monk.
hogarth: If I have to blow a feat to be competitive and function according to my core concept, then my class is broken.
No character should be more proficient at dodging a sweep at the legs than a monk. He's super mobile, he's a great leaper, he's quick, and he's good at reading his opponents intentions (WIS bonus to AC). At every level, the monk should be better at jumping over a sweep attack at his legs than the fighter or even the rogue.
I shouldn't have to waste a feat to achieve the central concept of my class. That's just...no.
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No character should be more proficient at dodging a sweep at the legs than a monk. He's super mobile, he's a great leaper, he's quick, and he's good at reading his opponents intentions (WIS bonus to AC). At every level, the monk should be better at jumping over a sweep attack at his legs than the fighter or even the rogue.
I shouldn't have to waste a feat to achieve the central concept of my class. That's just...no.
That sounds to me like Agile Maneuvers and Defensive Combat Training should be monk bonus feats, an idea I can entirely get behind.
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Well, problem not really solved. But I'm wondering if the way the Monk's CMB scales is intentional. They're tossed around like Bards and Rogues for 2 levels, on-par with a reasonable strength fighter for another 3 levels and then they pull ahead.
So Monks start feeling like the 'CMB Class' around level 7-8.
It's not bad, but yeah, a new monk player will have about 6 levels of griping.
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I've not crunched the numbers or playtested the Monk, but I can see the concern.
Perhaps a scaling ability called "favored maneuver" similar to the Ranger's favored enemies, where a Monk receives bonuses to complete and resist specific CMB-related maneuvers over time, would work nicely. You know: "Stay clear from that one; you don't want to be caught up in his arms and legs!" Or: "She can plow through foes as if they're scarecrows."
That might add a little fighting flair to the monk and allow them to differentiate themselves from one another. That was always my concern with the class--it didn't feel like its own, but instead a Fighter with a more shallow pool of extra feats who punched and kicked instead of Power Attacking with a big weapon or tripping with a spiked chain.
Yep, I know this falls into New Rules, but I really wanted to add my voice to the "Monk (looks to be) still lacking" camp and suggest a possible way to address the specific concern.
Am I the only one who still has a problem with the monk's AC? Shouldn't the incredibly agile and fast warrior who is good at reading his opponent's intentions/attacks be HARDER to hit than Joe Schmo who lacks skill but can afford a quality set of magically enhanced armor.
I find that a potion of Mage Armor (or a scroll of Mage Armor cast by an ally) is a cheap and effective way to boost a monk's AC at low levels. To a lesser extent, potions/scrolls of Shield of Faith work too. YMMV.
Speaking as someone who's had some combat training, tripping between two relativley untrained people is almost always about Strength.
An orc isn't going to footsweep you, he's going to grab you and shove you to the ground. Maybe, hook a leg behind yours but that's as subtle as it's going to get. It takes a lot of training to be able to either use your agility (Agile Maneuvers) or a specific technique (Defensive Combat Training) to help resist that strength.
It would make sense that these be bonus feats for a monk because they do represent things learned in a lot of martial arts. But it shouldn't be assumed that they automatically know them.
As for the orc tripping the monk... why would any self-respecting orc trip something (and open itself up to attack) when it can simply crush it with his morningstar?
Let's look at how it would play out:
Zurg steps up to Bandar to trip, Bandar takes an AoO damaging Zurg AND making it harder for him to be tripped (something not taken into account above).
Zurg succeeds and Bandar is shoved to the ground.
Bandar's initiative comes up and he ninja-kicks Zurg in the jublies and Zurg drops.
Bandar get's two damaging attacks to Zurg's one non-damaging attack, in this case I'd want to be tripped. Please.
If we look at a straight damaging attack.
Zurg steps forward and hits Bandar for 8 damage. Bandar is staggered and in a lot of trouble.
It only looks unbalanced in a vacuum, in a real game (especially with feats, two feats can add 4 + dex to his CMB) it's not so bad.
Posted this in the other thread about the monk.
What do you think in regard to this as a solution to the problem presented?
Also, I really dig the maneuver training. It puts the monk close to on-par with the fighter in theory, but in reality since the fighter doesn't have the same kind of MAD the monk has and will still out-do the monk in this regard.
How would you feel about adding +1/3-4 levels onto that ability description? A monk that spreads his ability scores would end up with CMB skills on-par with the fighter. A monk that focuses his character in that direction would have a unique advantage, giving that specific monk his own skill set to shine in over all others.
If the progression starts at level 6 or so, this would give the monk a boost where he needs it most...at higher level.
Those tricks wouldn't make him front-line combat ready like the fighter and he wouldn't compete with the DPS of the rogue, but would give him something unique that neither the fighter or the rogue could do with the same sort of efficiency.
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As for the orc tripping the monk... why would any self-respecting orc trip something (and open itself up to attack) when it can simply crush it with his morningstar?
Because he can express his inferiority complex by knocking down those weaker than itself and watching them cringe and cower before them ;)
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Cainus, the issue actually came up in my game with an evil monk who attacked the party.
The combatants were, in initiative order were:
BARTH, Human Fighter w/Bill Hook (but not Improved Trip)
MELCHIN, Human Monk w/MW Quarterstaff and AC 16, CMB 15, 14hp
GOLDENAXE, Human Fighter w/Longsword
BRANDAR, Elven Cleric w/Longsword
On the surprise round MELCHIN drops from a platform next to GOLDENAXE and strikes and misses.
BARTH trips MELCHIN with an adjusted roll of 15. Barth provokes no AOO due to his reach of 10' Trip is successful, while a regular attack would have missed.
MELCHIN stands from prone. BARTH makes AOO, hits (thanks to prone penalty) for 6 damage. GOLDENAXE makes AOO, critical hits for 17 damage, MELCHIN dies.
A CR 2 encounter that didn't last half a combat round. It was an absolute joke. It makes me feel like I'm getting cheated by paying out XP for that fight, because that was no challenge at all.
A critical hit is hardly a good example of a monk not doing well. At that level anyone can be taken out by a lucky crit.