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This is regarding most of the classes -- pretty much all of them except for druid -- so Pages 8-35.
Is it just me, or does anyone else not like the sudden power increase most of the classes get at 20th level? It has been said that the "sweet spot" of roleplaying is between like 7th level through 12th level. Right now, I don't think that there are any Pathfinder products that get up to 20th level (although I understand that may change). It just seems a waste to suddenly have all this ability that no one will really ever use. I understand that Jason and the designers are trying to make it desirable to get up to 20th level for each class, but while it may look good, is it really if you never get to play it? Suddenly at 20th level, you gain DR 5/- (when you didn't have it before), you gain immunity to sneak attacks and critical hits and you gain blindsight. That just seems like a lot that suddenly happens and that looks cool and fun, but that you won't ever really play since you are at the end of the career (or whatever).
It doesn't feel like a culmination of the plot (you have saved the princess) but rather like a new toy you can't play with (you now have a ray gun with no batteries).
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I think Moff's point is the abilities are almost out of no where. Unlike with the Barbarian's DR, the Fighter's DR only shows up at the end of non-epic play. I may be wrong, but it seems like he'd rather it developed over the 20 levels instead of at 20th level.
Of course, I could have misunderstood him...
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I think Moff's point is the abilities are almost out of no where. Unlike with the Barbarian's DR, the Fighter's DR only shows up at the end of non-epic play. I may be wrong, but it seems like he'd rather it developed over the 20 levels instead of at 20th level.
Of course, I could have misunderstood him...
I do understand the concern, but it is difficult to provide both an ability that really caps a class AND is also just a part of a chain of abilities that gradually grows over time.
The only one I can think of off the top of my head would be restricting the Wish spell to 20th level casters.
I don't play by standard epic rules, I just allow progression past it normally, if you've gotten to level 20 in one class, choose another or a PrC. I think the 3.0 epic rules are pretty lame. Having a level 21 character for some of these Adventure path final battles isn't a big deal.
I do understand the concern, but it is difficult to provide both an ability that really caps a class AND is also just a part of a chain of abilities that gradually grows over time.
That's basically it - you can't have a "Capstone" ability to strive for, if you get bits and pieces of it all the way up to it.
Take the Original Poster - he excluded Druid from the issue, because Druid's capstone is going from Wild Shape 8/day to at will. If suddenly at 20th level, Druid's got this brand new ability called "Wild Shape", that they could suddenly use to change for to any animal, plant, elemental, of up to Huge size, with no limit on duration... Wow! That's huge!
As it is, it's a slight bump.
I like the variety - people who want an ever building power - go for Druid. People who like the "struggle for ultimate power!" - go for Wiz or Fighter.
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I like the power increase. It's definitely an incentive to get all the way up there.
Why? If you don't get to use it much, then what is the point? You could provide a patch in the module that says "I made it!".
I really don't care either way. I guess that I just want it to be acknowledged for what it is -- the proverbial carrot and little more.
But then, if you are going to have a system where every class has a "capstone" or "carrot", then have EVERY class have an equal "capstone" or "carrot". They are not all equal in that regard.
I like the power increase. It's definitely an incentive to get all the way up there.Why? If you don't get to use it much, then what is the point? You could provide a patch in the module that says "I made it!".
I really don't care either way. I guess that I just want it to be acknowledged for what it is -- the proverbial carrot and little more.
But then, if you are going to have a system where every class has a "capstone" or "carrot", then have EVERY class have an equal "capstone" or "carrot". They are not all equal in that regard.
I agree... if you don't get to use it, any 20th level gain is about useless. Which is why, in my own games, if I'm running it to 20th, I want to make sure that I have something to wrap up the storyline after the group achieves level 20 so they can use those abilities.
I can't say what Pathfinder is going to do with their games... but hopefully if they design something to go through level 20 that it includes some play after you hit level 20.
But this isn't a class design issue, it's a campaign design issue.
I have agree with the side of "what is the point if you never reach 20th". I would like so see some statistics on what levels most campaigns really reach, like...
Percentage of campaigns that reach 10th level
15th?
18?
20+?
Honestly, the longest running campaign I have ever been in, after over 15 years of gaming, ended last fall after reaching 14th level. Most of our other campaigns never made it past 8th, with only a few reaching 10th.
If only 5% of campaigns advance past 15th level, then they would be considered the minority and IMO capstone (or really cool abilities) should be given out around 12th-14th level to give the players something to enjoy before their characters hang up their boots/die in a blaze of glory/etc.
Of course, if 70% of campaigns reach 20+, then putting the capstone ability at level 20 if fine (though I would prefer around 18 to make sure the players get to experience the thrill of using their super-cool class features).
Just my 2 cents...
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Why? If you don't get to use it much, then what is the point? You could provide a patch in the module that says "I made it!".
Not everyone uses premade adventures and when the Campaign Setting book comes out, it'll allow those of us that like the setting to run our own adventures. So while the APs might stop somewhere, it doesn't mean we'll have to stop playing.
Side note, if you add D2 into RotRL and W1 into CotCT, your party should be able to get 2-3 levels out of it, which'll get you that much closer to 20. ;)
I hope Second Darkness will have a module that could be used as a side quest.
Most Campaigns, I've played rarely ever reach 20, or at that point, the campaign is cleaning up anyway; that's mostly cause I'm DMing, and I hate getting to epic levels.