It should be +2 Str and +2 Con and -2 Int (not even going into Cha penalty).
No way in all the hells. That would make them the most overpowered race out there, something that is usually reserved by dwarves.
Plus, all the other races get one physical and one mental boost, why should half-orcs be different.
I think that game balance should still be considered. +Str, Con - Cha would so not be balanced.
I also think that the +2 bonus to Wisdom is totally unjustified, Wisdom is supposed to represent force of will and perception, a weird mix for a characteristic if you ask me, but half orcs definitely don't have any of those.
Wisdom is also the attribute used for "instincts" and "cunning." And in that regard, it does fit a Half-Orc.
Personally, I say give them +2 strength and -1 to all skills with Intelligence and Charisma as the key modifier.
Darkvision, Immunity to Ingested Poison and Diseases. Scent as a bonus feat and 1 rage point.
|
And while we're talking about half-orcs, why cleric and not druid? It seems to me that they're second favored class would be druid as orcs are more tribal, shamanistic, and otherwise more nature aspected as opposed to being structured by a "church."
First off I quite like the ability adjustments as presented in the Alpha for the half-orc. As per the favoured class while druids make some sense (the shamanistic picture), clerics I think are a better fit.
Orcs while savage don't seem to give much thought to 'respecting' nature. The natural world is a tool at best, an obstacle at worst. Orcs being restricted from metal armour just seems weird. The stereotypical D&D cleric with his chainmail, mace and war like tendencies fits orcs very well actually. That said a half-orc druid could totally work just that I think the cleric is a better fit for the 'favoured class' position.|
|
Personally, I say give them +2 strength and -1 to all skills with Intelligence and Charisma as the key modifier.
Darkvision, Immunity to Ingested Poison and Diseases. Scent as a bonus feat and 1 rage point.
This. Just +2 to STR would be better than +2 to WIS and -2 to CHA. I'm not sure about those negative modifiers to CHA- and INT-based skills, but an extra Rage Point/LVL would make them more efficient barbarians.
|
I am with what the book shows... just because we don't like orcs they need to be less charismatic to their people... and charisma is also used for Intimidate & Diplomacy... not just for looking cute
the book mentions:
+2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, –2 Intelligence: Half-orcs are physically strong and constantly on the lookout for danger, but their orc stock hinders their intelligence.
I totally go with +2 to wisdom, they survive by keen observation, natural inscstint and guts... not just raw strenght...
Also for those who want +2 str +2 con -2 cha... please please, stop being munchkins... i know all those who make orc barbarians go toward making the strongest and most brutish builts... lets stop the cliche... i love this Half-Orc as DM and player... of ocourse i play like elf :P
|
|
This. Just +2 to STR would be better than +2 to WIS and -2 to CHA. I'm not sure about those negative modifiers to CHA- and INT-based skills, but an extra Rage Point/LVL would make them more efficient barbarians.
so... every race gets 2 +2 and 1 -2
but because people don't like the half-orc or go with the idea of brutish or want to min max monstruos fighters/barbarians... is ok to give one race less advantages than the others?
at least the human gets to chose where he want his +2 to go...
I was okay with half-orcs in Alpha 1, and I'm still fine with them. I think it makes for a more interesting character, and I don't think it invalidates anything about previous half-orc lore. I'm all for them.
Looking at the 3.5 orc we see that it has the following ability score adjustments
str(+4)dex(0)con(0)int(-2)wis(-2)cha(-2)
Humans have (0) across the board
By looking at the reincarnation spell in Alpha 2 release it still has
the same physical ability scores and I would imagine the mental are not going to change
Now with humans now having +2 in one ability, I don't see how the 1/2 orc suddenly has a +2 wisdom. To me this is being done only so each race has a +2 in a mental ability, even if it does not seem as though they should. Changing things to make them "fit" (all devils having humanlike form, and ignoring previous material) is a problem strongly expressed about 4th edition.
Logically a 1/2 orc should have +2 dex or +2 con, maybe even a +4 str.
The best choice in my opinion would be a +2 con. 1/2 orcs are more muscular than humans and often constitution comes with that. Just look at bonuses for increasing size.
The majority of things in the Alpha release have been well thought out and will help the game. Please don't make the 1/2 orc "fit".
I don't see what the really big problem is here. Yeah, they Wisdom boost is to make them fit within the racial stat format they have, but so what? In the system they have set up, they have to have one boosted mental stat and and wisdom is the ONLY one that makes sense.
People who want them to have just physical boosts do so presumably because it makes them more "orc-like" or better barbarians which most of them inevitably are. Having the +2 Wisdom helps with that because it governs the skill set that barbarians have as well as those of druid/ ranger which are the most taken by half-orc characters. It helps them but just in a different way. (As a side note, I agree with those that think Druid should be the other favored of half-orcs. It just makes more sense.)
About half-orcs and humans. Humans have large, established civilization that allow for intelligence and charisma to flourish while orcs are savage brutes, but half-orcs are outsiders, but still usually living in more primitive societies and as such more so rely on having keen senses of perception, knowledge of the wilderness, and all those other "instinctual" sorts of knowledges and skills that help you to be more self-sufficient. They don't have just physical boosts because they don't just come from orc stock. Their greater ability to adapt and succeed in the face of being a semi-orphaned minority in most settings comes from their human side, in my opinion and all this reflects why they are generally more "wise" than either orcs or humans "usually are" based on the stat spread.
It's just hard to take the all physical boost argument as anything other than munchkin behavior. I think this stat spread really takes the race right out of the shadows of "worst race"-tied with 3.x half-elves. If all else fails, just house-rule yours to have +2 con instead or something. This has been discussed for hours and hours, and it doesn't seem to go anywhere. I'm glad this race now has the potential in play to be more than it used to be.
Looking at the 3.5 orc we see that it has the following ability score adjustments
str(+4)dex(0)con(0)int(-2)wis(-2)cha(-2)
Humans have (0) across the boardBy looking at the reincarnation spell in Alpha 2 release it still has
the same physical ability scores and I would imagine the mental are not going to changeNow with humans now having +2 in one ability, I don't see how the 1/2 orc suddenly has a +2 wisdom. To me this is being done only so each race has a +2 in a mental ability, even if it does not seem as though they should. Changing things to make them "fit" (all devils having humanlike form, and ignoring previous material) is a problem strongly expressed about 4th edition.
Logically a 1/2 orc should have +2 dex or +2 con, maybe even a +4 str.
The best choice in my opinion would be a +2 con. 1/2 orcs are more muscular than humans and often constitution comes with that. Just look at bonuses for increasing size.The majority of things in the Alpha release have been well thought out and will help the game. Please don't make the 1/2 orc "fit".
I posted this back in the Alpha 1 comments on half-orcs, but I think part of the problem warming up to this might be that people are focusing on "this didn't come from the human parent or the orc parent," but I think that this is something unique to half-orcs.
Half-orcs that survive to adulthood in orc society have to be cunning and patient, and half-orcs that survive in human society have to know how to look for the right oppourtunities so that they can contribute without reminding people too much of their heritage. I think it makes sense if viewed in that light, but I can understand how it might be a shift in thinking for people, and it might not feel right to some. For me, it works.
This. Just +2 to STR would be better than +2 to WIS and -2 to CHA. I'm not sure about those negative modifiers to CHA- and INT-based skills, but an extra Rage Point/LVL would make them more efficient barbarians.so... every race gets 2 +2 and 1 -2
but because people don't like the half-orc or go with the idea of brutish or want to min max monstruos fighters/barbarians... is ok to give one race less advantages than the others?
at least the human gets to chose where he want his +2 to go...
Personally, I really don't like the everyone gets a two +2 and one -2. It is one of the things that is been bugging me. And honestly I really don't like the idea of Humans getting a +2 in anything. I think its unnecessary. Now I understand the need to bump up the power of the core races to make them more in line with the newer released books, but at the same time, I am not sure stat boost are the way to go.
I feel that any negative should be reflected in a skill penalty, or maybe actually tied to race (Orc are "evil" so Half-Orc's are "evil", so I am not giving Grog the time of day!). Make Orc Blooded or Elf Blooded mean something.
If a race has a favored class help them be good at it, don't just bump the primary stats. I like the elf's new ability for this.
I do think the 3.5 Half-Orc is painfully penalized for the strength modifier. So adjustments to stat mods is welcome. I am just not sure I can go with the fact that Half-Orcs have the natural potential to be the some of the wisest of races. Maybe it is just me. Either way, it is just my two cents.
Hmm, I tend to agree to you.
The problem I see is just that +2/-2 or +2/+2/-2 just don't fit to every (core) race.
Let's take the dwarves. In my POV they could be adjusted like this:
STR +2, dwarves have thicker packed muscles than humans
DEX -2, they tend to be less mobile than humans
CON +4, dwarves are MUCH more durable than humans
CHA -2, dwarves are often gruffy and introverted
Now. Taking +4/+2/-2/-2 for all other races too, won't just fit for sure.
Actually I don't know why all races really have to use the same pattern for their abilities.
Why not: Ok, this race is blessed with good stats (+2 or +4 in total) and this one is not (maybe -2 in total). That's ok! Come up with some cool abilities (advantages and disadvantages) to make those races equal at the end.
I think it's more important to have a constant race than a set of races who aren't fully represented in their stats, JUST to make them equal.
If one race is just powerful, well than it is like that. Therefor was the level lag (ECL) designed for.
|
|
Hmm, I tend to agree to you.
The problem I see is just that +2/-2 or +2/+2/-2 just don't fit to every (core) race.Let's take the dwarves. In my POV they could be adjusted like this:
STR +2, dwarves have thicker packed muscles than humans
DEX -2, they tend to be less mobile than humans
CON +4, dwarves are MUCH more durable than humans
CHA -2, dwarves are often gruffy and introvertedNow. Taking +4/+2/-2/-2 for all other races too, won't just fit for sure.
Actually I don't know why all races really have to use the same pattern for their abilities.Why not: Ok, this race is blessed with good stats (+2 or +4 in total) and this one is not (maybe -2 in total). That's ok! Come up with some cool abilities (advantages and disadvantages) to make those races equal at the end.
I think it's more important to have a constant race than a set of races who aren't fully represented in their stats, JUST to make them equal.
If one race is just powerful, well than it is like that. Therefor was the level lag (ECL) designed for.
I don't think the level lag (ECL) worked that well. It enabled you to create characters with powerful templates and more powers/ability score bonuses (I know because FR has plenty of races with ECL+1 to ECL+4). In my experience this often resulted in some PCs being wildly powerful and unbalanced for 1st level adventures, but being underpowered when the other PCs hit 3rd or 4th level. I mean, your Half-Dragon/Half-Fiend/Mountain Orc Barbarian (ECL +5) might have STR 30+ and DEX 20+ and CON 20+, but he's going to have only 17-20 HPs max. until the others hit 7th level (and he effectively gains his 2nd level).
Your suggestion is a bit too "messy" for me, and I like it that dwarves get +2 to WIS (BTW, I have always *hated* that dwarves got a DEX penalty -- I think it's better modeled with movement 20 in PF). And if dwarves get +4 to CON, should we boost CON for all the monsters, too?
Hmm, I tend to agree to you.
The problem I see is just that +2/-2 or +2/+2/-2 just don't fit to every (core) race.Let's take the dwarves. In my POV they could be adjusted like this:
STR +2, dwarves have thicker packed muscles than humans
DEX -2, they tend to be less mobile than humans
CON +4, dwarves are MUCH more durable than humans
CHA -2, dwarves are often gruffy and introvertedNow. Taking +4/+2/-2/-2 for all other races too, won't just fit for sure.
Actually I don't know why all races really have to use the same pattern for their abilities.Why not: Ok, this race is blessed with good stats (+2 or +4 in total) and this one is not (maybe -2 in total). That's ok! Come up with some cool abilities (advantages and disadvantages) to make those races equal at the end.
I think it's more important to have a constant race than a set of races who aren't fully represented in their stats, JUST to make them equal.
If one race is just powerful, well than it is like that. Therefor was the level lag (ECL) designed for.
I don't think the level lag (ECL) worked that well. It enabled you to create characters with powerful templates and more powers/ability score bonuses (I know because FR has plenty of races with ECL+1 to ECL+4). In my experience this often resulted in some PCs being wildly powerful and unbalanced for 1st level adventures, but being underpowered when the other PCs hit 3rd or 4th level. I mean, your Half-Dragon/Half-Fiend/Mountain Orc Barbarian (ECL +5) might have STR 30+ and DEX 20+ and CON 20+, but he's going to have only 17-20 HPs max. until the others hit 7th level (and he effectively gains his 2nd level).
Your suggestion is a bit too "messy" for me, and I like it that dwarves get +2 to WIS (BTW, I have always *hated* that dwarves got a DEX penalty -- I think it's better modeled with movement 20 in PF). And if dwarves get +4 to CON, should we boost CON for all the monsters, too?
I always wished they had remade all the +ECL classes as gaining abilities with their bloodline over time and more powerful abilities only opening up after they achieved levels in specific classes. Like how the dwarf had specific levels for fighter in the Races of stone.
I look at what the Core races Feel like to me
Humans : learn fast
Half-Elf : Talk to people
Elf: Dex/Magical/Hyper acute senses
Dwarves: Tough/Gruff/Fighters/Small without Penalties
Halflings: Dex/Thieves/Lucky/Small
Gnome: Tough/Magical/Small
Half-Orc: Strong/Rager/Disliked/Stupid
To that end I think stat bumps should look like this:
Humans : None or +2 Intelligence (Covers the Skill bonus)
Half-Elf : +2 Dex and +2 Intelligence
Elf: +2 Dex
Dwarves: +2 Con
Halflings: +2Dex and Small size adjustments
Gnome: +2 Con and Small size adjustments
Half-Orc: +2 Str
And Racial abilities should look like this:
Humans : Extra Feat at 1st, 5th, 10th 15th, 20th
Half-Elf : Bonus equal to level on all Cha based skills.
Elf: Caster level of Spells +1, gain 3 cantrips as a wizard, Frial*
Dwarves: 3.5 Dwarf bonuses, -1 on Cha Skills
Halflings: Luck +1 on all saves at 1st, 5th, 10th 15th, 20th
Gnome: Caster level of Spells +1, gain 3 cantrips as a wizard
Half-Orc: Darkvision, Scent, Immunity to ingested Poison and Disease, Extra Rage Point, -1 penalty on intelligence and charisma based skills.
*Frail: Elves bleed double the amount listed when below 0 hp or when bleeding damage occurs, a -2 penalty vs. poison and necromancy.
Once again, ,my 2 cents.
Let's take the dwarves. In my POV they could be adjusted like this:
STR +2, dwarves have thicker packed muscles than humans
DEX -2, they tend to be less mobile than humans
CON +4, dwarves are MUCH more durable than humans
CHA -2, dwarves are often gruffy and introverted
I'd say that sometimes (or, actually, often), perceptions must take the backseat to balance.
Take elves, for example. Let me take the role of an avid elf lover who knows the family trees of all major ruling families from Tolkien's Books(' appendices). In that role, I say elves should be adjusted like this:
Dex +4 (maybe +6 even), elves are so very agile and graceful, and fast, and stealthy, and all that.
Con -2, okay, they're a bit on the frail side.
Int +4, they're extremely smart, they invented all the arts and crafts and have such a long time to hone their memory
Wis +2, they're very wise and perceptive, with strong minds
Cha +4, they're so pretty it hurts, and are by far the best artists around.
Actually, as far as avid elf lovers go, those are probably cautious estimates.
And now, I also want to open the dreaded Door of Varying Opinions.
See, someone might think differently about dwarves:
Str +0, they might be strong for their size, but their size isn't that much. They can be happy they don't get the -2 to strenth the other small races get
Dex -2, their stubby appendages don't lend themselves well to fine motor skills
Con +2, yeah, they're more durable than humans. Don't know about much. Humans, as a rule, aren't exactly frail.
Int -2, they don't exactly know a lot. They can swing an axe, and know how to mine metal and make axes and how to find gold. And they know how much the gold is worth. But that's basically it.
Wis -2, they're very weak of will, giving in to greed all the time
Cha -4, they're quite ugly. They look like miniature old men with scars. And they're cantankerous. And they don't bath. In fact, they probably never touch water (drunk all the time). People just have to hate them. They probably hate each other, and themselves, too.
To which the dwarf fan would probably counter with his impression about elves:
Str -2, those weak armes can't lift anything
Dex +2, yeah yeah, so they are fleet of foot
Con -4, they break in half under a slight breeze!
Int -2, I have a name for someone who takes 100 years until you can trust him with car keys, and that name is retard
Cha -2, they're so arrogant and think they're better than everybody else, no one likes them.
In the end, I'd say that moderate ability modifiers without too much passion in them are best. After all, you must consider that humans, as a rule, can be a pretty varied bunch, too. Take a look at the literature, and you'll see humans that are as strong as a giant, or as fast as a quickling, or as tough as two dwarves combined, or ultrasmart, ultrawise, ultrapretty. Giving any of the standard races +4 over that seems extreme.
Actually I don't know why all races really have to use the same pattern for their abilities.Why not: Ok, this race is blessed with good stats (+2 or +4 in total) and this one is not (maybe -2 in total). That's ok! Come up with some cool abilities (advantages and disadvantages) to make those races equal at the end.
Of course, this can handle a difference of, I'd say, +/-2, but beyond that, you'd have really powerful abilities.
I personally think that the races - especially the standard PC races - should not make such an impact upon the stats. They should mostly be defined by what they do, not what they were born as. Their fighting prowess, for example, should be mainly because of their muscle toning and the agility they got over the years, as well as their training and experience with weapons, not due to the mere fact that they were born elf or orc.
I think it's more important to have a constant race than a set of races who aren't fully represented in their stats, JUST to make them equal.
As I said, a lot of personal opinion and bias goes into what represents a race, but equality can be more easily measured in an objective way, so I'd say that balance should be what is used to create classes. Combined with the fact that some traits could be "weak" enough to fly below the radar (i.e. say that elves tend to be a bit weaker, but it's not nearly as distinctive as to justify a -2), I say that we can indeed make balanced and equal races that still live up to their racial image.
If one race is just powerful, well than it is like that. Therefor was the level lag (ECL) designed for.
Races with level adjustment are a very bad idea for standard races.
The thing is that depending on how you play it, those races are either totally unavailable at level 1 (that's the way I do it), getting only available once the party level is at least equal to the starting ECL, or you have a character that overshadows the rest in the beginning.
So I think making any of the basic races so overpowered that they warrant a level adjustment is a very bad idea (by the way, I think that was done in 3.5e, with dwarves. They're too powerful for a race without LA).
I don't think the level lag (ECL) worked that well.
It was half-decent, but it's true: The system often didn't work that well:
In very low levels, races with a level adjustment (or worse, with racial HD) are either unplayable or, if the DM allows them, so much better than the others.Then, over the next levels, when they may not advance at all because they have to "work off" their LA, they'll quickly become quite fragile: A hefty boost to stats might be nice, but sooner or later, you'll be way behind with your HP since you only have one HD (even if it is one HD with a hefty bonus due to racial con adjustments) and the others have several.
And even some time after you started getting levels again, you'll be quite weak in many aspects. (I felt that whenever more than half your ECL is due to LA, you're just too fragile to survive the life of an adventurer unless you have some very heavy munchkin-fu going. And even at 50/50, you'll have issues)
Of course, once you advance far enough, the extra powers you got because of your level adjustment become more and more irrelevant (so you have a net +6 to stats over your colleagues? That might be a +2 to attacks and damage, turning your +20 into +22. Woohoo. Your sword does twice that). But that lost level will often haunt you till the end (especially in the case of spellcasters - but of course, they seldomly use races with LA)
I like it that dwarves get +2 to WIS
Yeah, I'd say that of all mental attributes, wis is the most likely: Int isn't that important to a fighter or priest, and they're too grumpy for a bonus to charisma.
(BTW, I have always *hated* that dwarves got a DEX penalty -- I think it's better modeled with movement 20 in PF).
Actually, I think that a dex penalty instead of (or even in addition of) a cha penalty would work quite well to balance dwarves. Face it: Con is one of the most useful stats, giving you both HP and Fort. Everyone needs it to some extend. On the other side, Cha is not much of a penalty for a combat-focused character. A fighter has virtually no need for it, and even a cleric can do without (he'll just have to resort to physical violence to get rid of the undead). It's hardly a real penalty at all. It's like giving them -2 to knowledge (nature) and profession (sailor).
Dex, on the other hand, would be noticed, as it would lower their AC and Ref saves (as well as Init and a lot of skills they don't need). They might not need much Dex (more than 12 is a waste really, since they tend to use heavy armour), but now they'll have to pay a bit more to get that only-slightly-above-average dex.And from the flavour point of view, it also makes sense: They're rather thick-bodied, with a short but very stocky build. I'd say that is not very conductive to feats of agility.
I don't see what the really big problem is here. Yeah, they Wisdom boost is to make them fit within the racial stat format they have, but so what? In the system they have set up, they have to have one boosted mental stat and and wisdom is the ONLY one that makes sense.
People who want them to have just physical boosts do so presumably because it makes them more "orc-like" or better barbarians which most of them inevitably are. Having the +2 Wisdom helps with that because it governs the skill set that barbarians have as well as those of druid/ ranger which are the most taken by half-orc characters. It helps them but just in a different way. (As a side note, I agree with those that think Druid should be the other favored of half-orcs. It just makes more sense.)
About half-orcs and humans. Humans have large, established civilization that allow for intelligence and charisma to flourish while orcs are savage brutes, but half-orcs are outsiders, but still usually living in more primitive societies and as such more so rely on having keen senses of perception, knowledge of the wilderness, and all those other "instinctual" sorts of knowledges and skills that help you to be more self-sufficient. They don't have just physical boosts because they don't just come from orc stock. Their greater ability to adapt and succeed in the face of being a semi-orphaned minority in most settings comes from their human side, in my opinion and all this reflects why they are generally more "wise" than either orcs or humans "usually are" based on the stat spread.
It's just hard to take the all physical boost argument as anything other than munchkin behavior. I think this stat spread really takes the race right out of the shadows of "worst race"-tied with 3.x half-elves. If all else fails, just house-rule yours to have +2 con instead or something. This has been discussed for hours and hours, and it doesn't seem to go anywhere. I'm glad this race now has the potential in play to be more than it used to be.
When 4th edition was introduced many of the Paizo staff express a strong dislike for the "making it fit" combination of succubus and erinyes into incubus and all human-like fiends were now devils. A reason was given (to make things easier for new players) but in the end I think many perceived it as an unnecessary change, of someone wanting to put their "stamp" on DnD. Erik Mona has stated many times it is important to build on continuity and make changes when necessary. Why, because continuity is important.
I am not sure where your view of 1/2 orcs being outsiders in orc society comes from? In my readings 1/2 orcs have risen to promient roles because they are more wiser than orcs, thus making better clerics.
I find it interesting that you label a +2 con as munchkin behavior, but when you point out the "worst race" you don't list the race that has a con penalty. In our campaigns the elf wizard is the least likely to be played.
I find the +2 wis to be a boon over the +2 con. When confronting a giant what to you attack? (will save). When confronting an animal what do you attack? (will save). When confronting a strong fighter what do you attack? (will save.) This is the far more logical approach and avoids hp altogether.
My point is "making it fit" is heavy handed and does not help with continuity.
Looking at the 3.5 orc we see that it has the following ability score adjustments
str(+4)dex(0)con(0)int(-2)wis(-2)cha(-2)
Humans have (0) across the boardBy looking at the reincarnation spell in Alpha 2 release it still has
the same physical ability scores and I would imagine the mental are not going to changeNow with humans now having +2 in one ability, I don't see how the 1/2 orc suddenly has a +2 wisdom. To me this is being done only so each race has a +2 in a mental ability, even if it does not seem as though they should. Changing things to make them "fit" (all devils having humanlike form, and ignoring previous material) is a problem strongly expressed about 4th edition.
Logically a 1/2 orc should have +2 dex or +2 con, maybe even a +4 str.
The best choice in my opinion would be a +2 con. 1/2 orcs are more muscular than humans and often constitution comes with that. Just look at bonuses for increasing size.The majority of things in the Alpha release have been well thought out and will help the game. Please don't make the 1/2 orc "fit".
I posted this back in the Alpha 1 comments on half-orcs, but I think part of the problem warming up to this might be that people are focusing on "this didn't come from the human parent or the orc parent," but I think that this is something unique to half-orcs.
Half-orcs that survive to adulthood in orc society have to be cunning and patient, and half-orcs that survive in human society have to know how to look for the right oppourtunities so that they can contribute without reminding people too much of their heritage. I think it makes sense if viewed in that light, but I can understand how it might be a shift in thinking for people, and it might not feel right to some. For me, it works.
I am sorry I missed your post in Alpha 1, my computer was down. I think you view of having to make their way while making sense, can be used for so many races you should have to start changing the whole monster manual. Male drows have an incredibly tough time, in a martriarchal society. The majority of smaller humanoids are mistreated by larger humanoids (ex. goblins by hobgoblins/bugbears.) Often being anywhere from slaves to cannonfodder. What about an orc raised in a human monestary. He suffers no mistreatment, should he have a procivity to be wiser than the humans he grew up with?
These are the reasons I see this move as "making it fit" and not something good. If you try to make pieces fit when doing a puzzle you always end up with pieces laying around at the end.
What if for each race you enforced the "penalty" but left up the option of a couple stats you could boost with your total +4. Most cultures and peoples in the real world more so define "the other" in terms of weaknesses and differences.
It would be like giving a favored class option for racial bump stat. This is just an idea. I mean there's a difference between 9 base classes and 6 stats. But if one of your options for stat allocation allowed you to spend 2 of those points to negate your racial penalty...hmm?
Half-orc: -2cha (Str/Con/Wis) (I don't know exactly.)
but you could use your total +4 to get:
+4str, -2cha
+2con/wis, -2cha
+2wis/ +0cha
As you notice, this way the half-orc never starts off with a chance for a bonus to int or charisma, since charisma especially is the "racial" dump stat.
It would allow for the easy construction of "subraces"/regional groups stat arrays within a "racial range of tendency" or something so each class can't mechanically change itself into another, i.e: I really want all those dwarven racial abilities but have stats more like an elf...or some crap like that.
This might just be more convoluted than it's really worth, but I don't know, could be fun. Customization=fun=(>)replay value
...I must say, I just read my post again and I'm convinced this is a stroke of genius, and now that my ego is satisfied, it's beddy-bye time.
What if for each race you enforced the "penalty" but left up the option of a couple stats you could boost with your total +4. Most cultures and peoples in the real world more so define "the other" in terms of weaknesses and differences.
The problem is that now you have to balance them as if they always got the most beneficial bonuses imaginable, and those who take something else suffer.
See, if the bonuses are fixed, you can model the other abilities around it: "So, we give those guys +2 Str and Wis, and -2 Int, all in all powerful since Str is always good, and Wis is nothing to be sneezed at, either, but the Int can often be downplayed. Let's give them not so many cool other abilities and it's great." With this, you'll have to assume that they do something like +4 Str or +4 Con, or +2Str+2Con.
I think the problem with your argument is based on the idea that the existing bonuses are more "balanced" than what I've suggested and I don't believe they are. None of the racial spreads in PRPG are traditionally balanced. Each set gives you a net benefit of ~+2, based on the DMG chart.
Oh, and I forgot they get -2 int, not cha. my bad.
Remove one of those physicals then. Say the half-orc stat set would include (str, wis, int). You would still have the +4 total you could allocate. And just like before you control the negative, not the positive, so they all start off with the -2cha. I think you're argument is that all players, all the time, choose max over min, or only more specifically focuses bonuses in character building. I don't know about you, but the most fun character's I've played over the years are not all min-maxed, but have sort of a "theme" or idea and I build little bonuses and flavor behind them- the sort of characters that aren't bards but still have perform skills for some quirky reason. I always say its just an illusion to think that you're stat-fiend super-fighter whatever-he-is, is less killable by the DM than some average flavorful sorcerer. Your DM can kill anything.
You could get:
+2str/wis, -2int
+4str or wis, -2int
+2str, +0int
+2int
Gnomes:(con,cha,str)(-2str)
+2con/cha, -2str
+4con or cha, -2str
+2cha, +0str
+2str
This way, looking at humans as the balancing factor, each race under the old rules has a net +2 to their stats. And under this modification you could even end up with a +2 to your racial penalty stat, but to do so you marginalize your potential bonuses. I think this modified version is pretty good and potentially useful, whereas I see the problems with the previous set.
None of the racial spreads in PRPG are traditionally balanced. Each set gives you a net benefit of ~+2, based on the DMG chart.
That's not what I meant with balanced. I meant balanced against each other.
Remove one of those physicals then. Say the half-orc stat set would include (str, wis, int). You would still have the +4 total you could allocate.
It's still possible to do +4 strength, which is very powerful.
Same for +4 con.
I think you're argument is that all players, all the time, choose max over min, or only more specifically focuses bonuses in character building. I don't know about you, but the most fun character's I've played over the years are not all min-maxed, but have sort of a "theme" or idea and I build little bonuses and flavor behind them- the sort of characters that aren't bards but still have perform skills for some quirky reason.
Your lecture about creating truly memorable characters is very nice, but you can't balance a rule set with it.
It's not that all players, all the time, choose something. They don't have to. It still means that you should take into account that they can.
Making it possible to get something powerful and "balancing" that with saying that "only power games will use it" doesn't sit right with me.
I always say its just an illusion to think that you're stat-fiend super-fighter whatever-he-is, is less killable by the DM than some average flavorful sorcerer. Your DM can kill anything.
The DM is not out to get you. The DM is not out to get you. The DM is not out to get you.
Repeat it. You might start believing it, and have a much better time at the table, without all the paranoid looking at the DM's screen, fearing the ominous thunder of a hundred dice rolled in unison. :P
Sure, the DM can kill anything. He can just say "you fall over tdead." But the system should be set up so that the DM doesn't have to do arbitrary stuff like that as a matter of course. A good system will prevent glaring problems so the DM can concentrate on the story instead of whether someone got away with something again and must now be cut down to size.
Gnomes:(con,cha,str)(-2str)
+2con/cha, -2str
+4con or cha, -2str
+2cha, +0str
+2str
A gnome with a strength bonus?
This way, looking at humans as the balancing factor, each race under the old rules has a net +2 to their stats. And under this modification you could even end up with a +2 to your racial penalty stat, but to do so you marginalize your potential bonuses. I think this modified version is pretty good and potentially useful, whereas I see the problems with the previous set.
Why bother with any restrictions? Why bother with bonuses, if it comes to that? Just screw them all and let them use a better method to determine their stats: 5d6 instead of 4d6, or Point Buy 32 instead of 25 (or more extreme things, like 6d6 nine times, or Point Buy 40).
It should be +2 Str and +2 Con and -2 Int (not even going into Cha penalty).
No way in all the hells. That would make them the most overpowered race out there, something that is usually reserved by dwarves.
Plus, all the other races get one physical and one mental boost, why should half-orcs be different.
I really think that the mandatory bonus to 1 Physical and 1 Mental stat, offset by 1 penalized stat, is lame. It creates racial bonuses and penalties that have little to do with how the races have been portrayed over the years and just overly-complicates things.
Keep it simple I say!
Dwarves: +2 CON
Elves: +2 DEX
Gnomes: -2 STR, +2 INT, +2 CON
Half-Orcs: +2 STR
Half-Elves: +2 to any one stat
Halflings: -2 STR, +2 DEX, +2 CON
Humans: +2 to any one stat
The funkiest races in this set-up are Gnomes, 1/2 Elves and Halflings.
For Gnomes, I based the ability score mods on AD&D and D&D 3.X Gnomes crossed with a Tinker Gnome background... which fits with their description in Alpha 2... "Many view such gnomes as eccentric,as their passions tend toward invention, alchemy, or other technical pursuits." The CHR bonus, while mechanically best considering their favored class, does not make sense from a flavor perspective. I don't see Gnomes as more charismatic than any other player race. Another option is to remove the STR penalty but limit STR to 14 and give Gnomes a +2 to CON.
For 1/2 Elves, I went with the same bonus that Humans get... because no single ability score bonus comes immediately to mind and they have historically shared the same lack of ability score mods as Humans.
For Halflings, I based their ability score mods on AD&D and D&D 3.x Halflings, taking their save bonuses versus poison into consideration when selecting CON. I don't see Halflings, as a race, any smarter than any other race but do see them as deceptively tough little buggers (a carry over from Tolkien I suppose... but in keeping with their D&D history too). Another option is to remove the STR penalty but limit STR to 14 and give Halflings a +2 to DEX.
It should be +2 Str and +2 Con and -2 Int (not even going into Cha penalty).
Really, Half-Orcs are now wiser than Elves? I don't think so. Most of the other changes for the races, imo, are great though. This one stinks.
I agree. The "balancing factor," and that is a sop to those whose games are 100% combat and thus non-physical stats don't matter, is that the half-orc has a lot less in terms of other racial bonuses/abilities than all the other races. Brute strength and toughness is what orcs, and by extension half-orcs, are all about. A Wis bonus is just bizarre.
I really think that the mandatory bonus to 1 Physical and 1 Mental stat, offset by 1 penalized stat, is lame. It creates racial bonuses and penalties that have little to do with how the races have been portrayed over the years and just overly-complicates things.
Keep it simple I say!
I agree with the concept but not the specific stats. I'll start a separate thread that's for all the races though.
I just don't see where stat balancing is really an issue in this system though. They've opted for more flavor options and sensible bonuses than "arcane" balancing of each stat in some hierarchical framework.
This thread just seems to me like a very long series of posts trying to quell/appease the groups of people that want 1/2 orcs to have all physical racial buffs. And they just need to get over it; It's just unbalanced and boring.
The PRPG paradigm for this is just obviously different than the 3.x one.
And by balanced I mean this:
They have +2str/wis, -2int, so on the 3.x chart each mental stat equals each other. so in the end, the balance is in a net "unbalanced" +2, which is still fine because the power level of this system is all around a bit higher than 3.x rules allow for at first level. I think it works similarly for each race. All this balances out with humans because they just have a single +2 to allocate. Does that make sense?
Forget all the alternate mechanics, everyone. It's just the way I think about stuff: I try to make things work the way they are, and if it seems to me the parts could be arranged a little different within a set framework/concept, then I move stuff around or post variants or little changes.
Halflings: -2 STR, +2 DEX, +2 CON
You talk about bonuses that don't have anything to do with the races and then come up with +2 con for halflings??? That fits a lot less then Int, or Wis for half-orcs.
|
It should be +2 Str and +2 Con and -2 Int (not even going into Cha penalty).
Really, Half-Orcs are now wiser than Elves? I don't think so. Most of the other changes for the races, imo, are great though. This one stinks.
Both I and my son LOVE this! As mentioned, it portrays a concept of being experienced, or life-smart, but not book/school smart. The Half-Orc has had to live off of cunning and adaptability, and what fits that better than Wisdom? I love it! And I hope it stays just as it is! Brilliant!
While we all have our conceptions of what should and should not be allowed, sometimes you have to give a little based upon the default rules platform (the rules in the book before you or I as a player start ret-conning things.) If a Half-Orc can be a paladin, then a Half-Orc can have +2 Wis. I don't think the elves are offended.
You talk about bonuses that don't have anything to do with the races and then come up with +2 con for halflings??? That fits a lot less then Int, or Wis for half-orcs.
Halflings: -2 STR, +2 DEX, +2 CON
I gave my explanation above. I guess you didn't care to read or consider it. If you look at Halflings in AD&D, they got a bonus to saves versus poison and, in Tolkien (which is THE basis for Halflings) they are deceptively tough.
I ALSO wrote that another way around the problem was to grant a +2 to DEX and limit strength to a 14 but assign no penalty. That way the bonus to CON could be dropped altogether.
It looks to me like you reply to some posts with needlessly argumentative replies. Try to curb that reflex because it's really not helpful to reasoned discussion.
It looks to me like you reply to some posts with needlessly argumentative replies. Try to curb that reflex because it's really not helpful to reasoned discussion.
You're not my mom.
You're not my mom.
It looks to me like you reply to some posts with needlessly argumentative replies. Try to curb that reflex because it's really not helpful to reasoned discussion.
Very observant... but it doesn't speak to the point. Either treat people on the boards with respect or don't post.
Very observant... but it doesn't speak to the point. Either treat people on the boards with respect or don't post.
You should either get better ideas or accept that you'll be criticised from time to time.
Plus, if you call other people's ideas "lame" and other derogatory stuff, you lose immunity to criticism.
Or try to get me banned, because you won't tell me when I'm posting or not.
I love the new half orc, I can't wait to play one.
I didn't like the "re imagined" orc in the Pathfinder suppliment, I have grown tired of the raw seething horde of mindless killing frenzy.
I am looking forward to release 3 as the Ranger and the Monk seem especially suited for a half orc character.
As a DM I am glad that orcs aren't frothing thugnards and this opens up a few opportunities for classic villains. The half orc cleric of orcus in the Necromancer games adventure "The Crucible of Freya" has some lasting potential.
I would definitely go with +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha and "Powerful Build" for the Half-Orc.
I wouldn't. But that's because I'm no devil who wants to tempt powergamers too much. Don't lead them into temptation - they find their way on their own. :P
Plus, neither humans nor orcs have a bonus to con. And while that is true for wis as well, it does make sense that the ones who survive are those who have the wits to stay out of trouble or evade it. Being tough might make your survive another strike, but wis will let you avoid a hundred. And if it's more than one extra strike you'll have to avoid, wis is probably the thing you have more use for.
Those guys are half-orcs, not WoW Taurens, they were probably born by rape and hidden when little from the rest of the humans
Those born to human women among humans might be hidden from humans. Or the humans take pity on the babe (and the prejudice comes later)
... they don't have comunities, or towns, or shrines...
Yes they do. Read the racial write-up from Pathfinder RPG, it mentions half-orc communities.
And there's orc society, where they blend in and can even earn respect if they can keep up physically. I'd say a lot of those are raised in orc societies. Not born to orc females, but rather to captured human females who were taken specifically for breeding purposes.
Orcs WANT half-orcs. They might not be quite as strong, but they're not as stupid, either. Competent clerics to support the horde are always useful.
they are outcasts...
Not all of them.
they are not fit to be clerics...
Yes, they are. They're wiser than full-blooded orcs. Also not as rude. That's helpful for a cleric. They're just as stupid as orcs, but for a cleric, it doesn't pay to be too smart, anyway.
there's no Half-Orcville...
If we can believe PF RPG Alpha (whic I think we can), there is. Not by that name, of course, but there's bound to be a couple of half-orc settlements about. Things happen if they can.
Gruumsh didn't even like half-orcs.
There is no Gruumsh in Patfinder. Rovagug doesn't care what race you are, he just wants you to destroy and kill.
The rule to have an obligatory boost to a physical stat and a mental stat has no reason to be... it's definitely a bad idea to put rules just for the sake of ruling.
I say that this rule makes sense. Half-orcs with +StrWis-Int make sense. At least as much as +StrCon-Whatever, and it has the added benefit of not being overpowered.
|
|
I'd think the best way to go is +2 STR, +2 WIS, -2 CHA. I see the point of the INT penalty-sort of, but they'resupposed to be smarter than Golarion orcs and as it currently stands, they're not. Everybody agrees that they're strong in body and will, and savage, bellicose, and UGLY mofos. Let the racial penalty reflect that.
I'd think the best way to go is +2 STR, +2 WIS, -2 CHA. I see the point of the INT penalty-sort of, but they'resupposed to be smarter than Golarion orcs and as it currently stands, they're not. Everybody agrees that they're strong in body and will, and savage, bellicose, and UGLY mofos. Let the racial penalty reflect that.
I approve of that. Makes sense. They're not liked by most, anyway. They won't survive because they're cute.