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I've been thinking about how Knowledge could work in Pathfinder.
I think every class should have an associated Knowledge skill:
* Knowledge (nature) - barbarian, druid, ranger
* Knowledge (religion) - cleric, paladin
* Knowledge (arcana) - wizard, sorcerer
* Knowledge (underworld) - rogues
* Knowledge (warfare) - fighter, paladin - This would be strategy and tactics, formations, siege warfare, fortifications, ranks and chains of command, etc.
These abstract Knowledges might also have applied partners:
* Knowledge (nature) - Survival
* Knowledge (religion) - Spellcraft
* Knowledge (arcana) - Spellcraft
* Knowledge (underworld) - Thievery
* Knowledge (warfare) - Soldering? Warcraft? Or maybe their high BAB is the application of a fighter's knowledge.
But what is Knowledge?
1. It's generally pretty academic. Not necessarily learned in school, but at least something that has to be studied. It's great for answering questions and would be fantastic for adding synergy bonuses to skill checks (see the Lordzack Synergy Compromise), but it doesn't actually do anything.
2. It doesn't overlap with Profession. I've explained elsewhere that, to me, Profession is Knowledge and applied skills (Craft) rolled into one. A baker doesn't need Knowledge (pastries) because it's already assumed in Profession (baker).
3. Unless it would be really useful for adventurers. Then it might be worth it to peel it out of Profession so somebody could use it in a dungeon.
So it's generally pretty academic and doesn't overlap with Profession unless it would be really useful for adventures. The academic part makes me think of high school and college courses; things you could major in ...
* Social studies = Knowledge (history & cultures)
* Poli Sci = Knowledge (nobility & politics)
* Econ = Knowledge (trade): trade routes, currencies, exchange rates, principal imports and exports
* Humanities = Knowledge (Arts & Literature)
* Science = ?
* Math = ?
* Engineering = Knowledge (architecture & engineering)
* Linguistics = Knowledge (linguistics): figure out unknown languages, decipher texts, write codes
* Law = Knowledge (law)
* Theology = Knowledge (religion)
Now it seems to me that one can either have a broad knowledge of many things or a deep knowledge of a few. LongreachJones gave an example of a system that does this from Arcanis.
1 - Generalize
Say you placed 5 ranks in Perform(Dance), this has the advantage of giving you the ability to perform any kind of dance with at least a modicum of skill. If you were asked to perform any kind of ballroom dance, you could probably do it, but because of your generalized education in dance, the DC might be 5 higher or 15 using my statement above. If instead you were asked to perform the classic ballroom dance called the Tango, this is a very specific request and would probably warrant a DC20 check.2 - Specialize
Consider instead maybe having those 5 ranks in Perform(Dance:Ballroom). With this specialized training, Ballroom dancing is now a simple DC10 and to recall the specific knowledge to do the Tango with precision, you are now looking at a DC15 which is much easier to do than with generalization. On the down side however, of you were requested to do any non-ballroom dance, the DC would also be 15 as your specialized training locks you into certain patterns. The same is also true of being asked to do a specific dance from another discipline, you are probably going to be left out with another DC20.3 - Subspecialize
Now somewhere out there, there is probably some rosethorn poisoned purist who has 5 ranks in Perform(Dance:Ballroom:Tango). In the examples given, he would have to make a DC15 for any non-tango ballroom dance and a DC20 if he were asked to dance something that did not come from a ballroom setting. On the other hand, if the task of dancing the perfect tango is the order of the day, this is probably your man.
Basically, Knowledge (arts & literature) can answer general questions about the most famous art and artists, know a few titles from literature, but has trouble with specific questions (DC +5). Knowledge (arts & literature: Chelaxian neodiabolism) knows specif authors and can quote their texts but isn't very good outside his area of expertise (DC +5). Most adventures would probably be written for general Knowledge skills, but players with more specific Knowledge skills to develop character and might get lucky and make a good match to their Knowledge.
Finally, I think Knowledge (local) should be replaced with Knowledge (Korvosa) or Knowledge (Osirion). Someone with Knowledge (Varisia) might be able to tell you the history, trade, religion, etc (all those college-like skills above) of Varisia. But if you asked him for specifics like who runs the docks in Maginmar, no good. And someone with Knowledge (Maginmar) would know all the legends and back alleys and personalities, but would have trouble telling you anything about Korvosa or Riddleport.
Kind of a collection of random thoughts.
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Knowledge (pastries), hehe. Got a good laugh.
I personally with Knowledge (Local) would disappear, since it just doesn't fit the theme. A local citizen would likely know the current events in the region anyways, no need for a separate knowledge for that. And it appears you are flooding with new knowledges, maybe with too many. I wouldn't object, however. They'd give certain flavors to characters. The problem would rise with skill points, as the knowledges would suck a whole lot of them.
Knowledge (pastries), hehe. Got a good laugh.
I once gave one of my FR characters, a dwarf ranger, a few ranks in Knowledge (consumables).
He had a fondness for fine cheese and complimentary drink, and had studied the nuances of such to some extent. Didn't serve much use during game play, but was a good background element to include.
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A system like that is more realistic, but not easier to use. To my way of thinking, the added complexity does not warrant the change. As the DM I already have to know too many thinks. I was interviewing a possible new player and he wanted to know how I would handle his character throwing a large container of sulphur into a burning fire.
I told him that it would not kill the entire orc camp like he thought. If he could explain how his character (not him) knew that sulphur would react to fire like that, I might do 2d6 in a 15-radius burst. But the point is, I don't want to have to know whether Tango is a ballroom dance or not. I don't want to have to figure out if the DC should be 5 higher or if we're talking the area of expertise. A little abstraction is useful so I don't HAVE to know anything.
I think a system that requires knowledge outside of the books is not a good system to advocate.
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A system like that is more realistic, but not easier to use. To my way of thinking, the added complexity does not warrant the change. As the DM I already have to know too many thinks. I was interviewing a possible new player and he wanted to know how I would handle his character throwing a large container of sulphur into a burning fire.
I told him that it would not kill the entire orc camp like he thought. If he could explain how his character (not him) knew that sulphur would react to fire like that, I might do 2d6 in a 15-radius burst. But the point is, I don't want to have to know whether Tango is a ballroom dance or not. I don't want to have to figure out if the DC should be 5 higher or if we're talking the area of expertise. A little abstraction is useful so I don't HAVE to know anything.
I think a system that requires knowledge outside of the books is not a good system to advocate.
Whole-heartedly agree -- we don't need to emulate Harnmaster or Rolemaster in D&D. Especially if the goal is to streamline and tweak the skill system to work more smoothly and in a more logistic fashion.
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A system like that is more realistic, but not easier to use. To my way of thinking, the added complexity does not warrant the change.
Yeah, I actually fell asleep before I quite finished. I meant to add that I would only include the bold faced ones.
So my final list would be...
* Knowledge (arcana)
* Knowledge (arts & literature) - maybe
* Knowledge (history & culture)
* Knowledge (linguistics)
* Knowledge (nature)
* Knowledge (nobility & politics)
* Knowledge (religion)
* Knowledge (trade)
* Knowledge (underworld) - as in criminal, not 'land of the dead'
* Knowledge (warfare)
Most of the above could be made specific - K (religion: Aroden) or K (nobility: Chelaxian) for +2 within niche and -2 outside of it.
* Knowledge (local/regional)
Must specify where - K (Korvosa) or K (Varisia). Can be used for any of the above, but only in the specified place. If local, may be used for regional checks at -2. If regional, may be used for for local checks at -2.)
* Knowledge (forbidden) - just 'cause it's cool!
I would also get rid of...
* Knowledge (architecture & engineering) - other than destroying buildings (warfare), what do folks really use this for?
* Knowledge (dungeoneering) - this is too easy, kinda' like Profession (adventurer)
* Knowledge (geography) - general knowledge about how geography works = (nature) and specific features = (local/regional)
* Knowledge (the planes) - shouldn't be available to low-level characters so I'd make it high DC (30+) (arcana) and (religion)
And [i]that's my Knowledge list.
* Knowledge (architecture & engineering) - other than destroying buildings (warfare), what do folks really use this for?
Lets see, my own character with that skill has used it for...
-Constructing defensive fortifications for an expected battle (cover bonuses helped a lot)-Set proper supports to keep the roof of a dungeon from collapsing in on us due to the REALLY pissed off dragon stomping around above deliberately trying to cause a cave-in.
-used to identify unstable/likely to collapse buildings and dungeon tunnels on several occasions. (Ok, that looks like it could fall in on us and kill us, lets go down this other passage)
-same as above and with a Bluff role to trick a group of attacking goblins into going into the wrong tunnel and getting crushed.
-relevant skill in repairing (when combined with the Profession: Siege Engineer) and building siege engines of various types.
-saved the party a good chunk of gold by designing and overseeing the construction of it's new tavern/home base.
-used to design and build a pulley/rail system for removing bulk treasures from a hard-to-get-into dungeon that otherwise would have been left behind.
-used several times for aid-another/self rolls to Disable Device, Search (for traps and hidden doors), Warfare.
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Lets see, my own character with that skill has used it for...
Okay, you convinced me. At least, you convinced me that it's a valid field of knowledge with in-game uses, especially by clever players. What I'm not sure of is if it makes "the short list," the 5-10 Knowledge skills that make the official Pathfinder list.
Like Knowledge (mathematics) or Knowledge (astrology) or Knowledge (fine arts), a clever player could totally get some great role playing out of a skill like Knowledge (architecture & engineering). Essentially there is an infinite list of Knowledge skills: agriculture, lapidary, fashion, metallurgy, sports trivia, etc., and each of these might be fun for somebody.
But what we need to settle on is a short list of Knowledge skills that will account for 90% of our needs so that game designers can create NPCs and encounters that utilize a common set of Knowledge skills. History comes up A LOT. Nobility, religion, arcana, nature do too. I think "linguistics" and "warfare" would corral some of the ideas that are floating around and mold them into something many people could use. Maybe trade, maybe underworld knowledge.
Personally, I think "law" would be a great Knowledge skill and if I'm playing a cops-and-robbers campaign set in Absalom I might make it a skill. But I accept that most people would never use such a thing so I would never expect to see an official NPC with ranks in Knowledge (law) or an encounter in a published adventure that called for Knowledge (law) checks. If it is a legitimate skill, my players should be able to find opportunities to use it in situations I create, or, like you, by being creative in published adventures.
That's how I feel about Knowledge (architecture & engineering). Cool skill, but probably not used by enough people often enough to put it on the short list. We can use any Knowledge skill (or Craft or Perform or Profession) we want in our home games, we just can't expect anything other than the core list to be supported in Pathfinder.
So what is that short list of types of knowledge that will be called for in most people's games?
Something about history & culture.
Something about politics & government.
Something about trade & commerce.
Something about war.
Something about languages.
Something about religion.
Something about magic.
Something about the wilderness.
Something about specific places or regions.
I had something about the criminal world but someone suggested a skill called Streetwise and I think that works better than Knowledge (underworld).
What do the rest of you think?