I am so old that:
a)i don't think that every race should have access to every class
b)some races should be premier at certain classes
However, we aren't going back to class limits anytime soon no matter how much i miss the old days and favored classes is too integral of 3.0/3.5 to remove.
I've played under 6 different 3rd edition DM's and none of them ever enforced the favored class rules.
I say just get rid of Favored class thing altogether. It works just fine without it.
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I think the main thing that should be taken into consideration as far as the favored classes concept goes is that the idea for it (indeed, for the whole game system) is that it is taken from a human-centric point of view. Humans see more dwarven fighters than dwarven wizards, humans see more elven wizards than elven sorcerors, humans see more half-orc barbarians than they do half-orc monks, etc. That doesn't mean the others don't exist, it just means they aren't seen as often.
Personally, i like the idea of favored classes. I like the idea of giving more hit points to those that fall in line with that mind set instead of thinking "out of the box" class-wise, both as a player and as a GM. But I also think that there should be some kind of reward for those that do think outside of the racial "box". Perhaps they should get the bonus to skills that has been suggested in this thread rather than the "stereotypes".
Comments?
As I mentioned in the first "favored classes are pointless" thread -
People are missing the actual point of favored classes. That point isn't to restrict choices, but rather to guide new players. It's far simpler for a new player to make an effective character (and thus have fun with the game) if he has a little guidance. A new player isn't going to have a clue that dwarves don't make good sorcerers - he'll just think it's a little disadvantaged. The "favored class" tag on each race and the "races" entry on each class serve mostly to guide new players. They say, "Hey, if you want to play a fighter, Dwarves are good at it as-is but you might want to steer clear of Elves for now".
As such, and since they take up just about zero effective room in the book, it would be far more detrimental to remove them than to leave them in. It's just about the simplest house rule there is to remove them yourself if you don't need them, but it is nearly impossible to house-rule their primary function back into the game if they are removed.
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People are missing the actual point of favored classes. That point isn't to restrict choices, but rather to guide new players. It's far simpler for a new player to make an effective character (and thus have fun with the game) if he has a little guidance. A new player isn't going to have a clue that dwarves don't make good sorcerers - he'll just think it's a little disadvantaged. The "favored class" tag on each race and the "races" entry on each class serve mostly to guide new players.
Good point. But creating rules for everyone based on the needs of new players seems a little extreme. Someone somewhere started a discussion of a Pathfinder boxed set or a Pathfinder Basic with lite rules for new players. I love the idea and maybe favored classes as suggestions for new players belong there.
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Here's an idea off the top of my head. Instead of racial favored classes make them character favored classes. Every character regardless of race chooses one class that's their favored. Then give them whatever bonus you deem necessary for it. This has 3 major bonuses I can see. 1) Reduces multiclassing dips, since they only get 1 favored class. 2) Doesn't pigeon-hole characters into playing (what some people would call) "boring" class choices, ie. dwarf fighter, elf wizard, halfling rogue, ect. 3) If you're going with an extra skill point per favored class that most people seem to like (at least from what I've seen) then low skill point classes get a small boost instead of giving the the classes as a whole extra skill points all around. Also it reduces the 20 skill point gap from someone who took a favored class, as opposed to someone who didn't for sake of flavor or what have you.
*2cp into the bowl*
Favored classes as 'thematic suggestions' is fine. But any mechanics which gives you free stuff for making choices without any real cost is bad mechanics. "If you want to be a fighter, you get free stuff for being a dwarf" is a bad mechanic, no matter how small the free stuff is.
You say it's a bad mechanic, but WHY is it a bad mechanic?
And actually, there are costs - at least as much of a cost that goes into any other race/class choice. "If I make a Dwarf Fighter, I'll have more hit points, but I'll be slower and have a lower AC than if I made an Elf Fighter."
I'm in favor of ditching the favored classes altogether. It seems to pigeonhole some things that don't need pigeonholing. For example, my playtest group has an elf barbarian, who is really getting shafted on hit points because of the combination of racial bonus hit points (the option we're using) and being of a non-favored class. If the character was, say, a half-elf, he'd be starting out with 4 hit points more (racial + racial con. mod. + favored class). I have no problem with the racial hit point bonus or the race con. modifier, but I really don't see the point of penalizing the player for the choice of race for his barbarian character.
Personally, I think the hitpoint per level doesnt have the right flavor.
I'm starting to like the idea of an additional skill point that can only be spent on that favored class skills.
The classes are getting a bit much in the way of hps as it is.
Maybe give the fighter/barb/paladin +1 hp/ level... but why should my wizard get 1 additional hp per level? Increased wizard-ninja training from the mage academy?
Im a diehard wizard fan and I was happy with wixxors at 4hp/level... now suddenly im at d6+1 and it seems too much, for no real justified purpose.
Personally, I think the hitpoint per level doesnt have the right flavor.
I'm starting to like the idea of an additional skill point that can only be spent on that favored class skills.
The classes are getting a bit much in the way of hps as it is.
Maybe give the fighter/barb/paladin +1 hp/ level... but why should my wizard get 1 additional hp per level? Increased wizard-ninja training from the mage academy?
Im a diehard wizard fan and I was happy with wixxors at 4hp/level... now suddenly im at d6+1 and it seems too much, for no real justified purpose.
I really like the idea of additional skill points on the favoured class skills as well. It makes a bit more sense than the bonus hit point - if a race is naturally predisposed to a certain class, then offering an additional skill point would show their predisposed flair in that class.
It would be a shame, I think, if favoured classes were to disappear - as someone's already said, they're incredibly easy to get rid of if you don't want them, but I like the fact they reflect some non-human races are simply better suited to some things than others.
Chobbly
Not only do I LIKE the favored class incentive, but I think it should be ENHANCED as well. In addition to the +1 hp per favored class level, give +1 skill point (as long as it is spent on a class skill). It helps to reinforce some archetypes, which for me, help make the game interesting. Why? Because if you decide to be a vagrant elf who studies the ways of a fighter you are distinguishing yourself from all those snooty elf wizards in their high caps. But if you do decide to become an elf wizard, then you can bask in the glow of your superiority to wizards of every other class.
Don't like favored classes? It's very simple to nix them. And it isn't like it takes a huge amount of space in the book.
Don't like favored classes? It's very simple to nix them. And it isn't like it takes a huge amount of space in the book.
Exactly. It's a matter of three seconds talking to say "no favored class bonuses" and be done with it. The difficulty of house-ruling in their primary purpose is exponentially harder - and not just to the second power, either. More like tenth power.
Cut them. Slash them. Kill them. Disappear them. Rip them a new one. Feed them their own innards. Run them over with a steamroller, feet first, so they can see it coming.
Or something.
One way or the other, I have no strong feeling about the issue.