The ability to move and then place the grappled person in any square is pretty powerful. It allows the attacker to pretty easily drop someone off a cliff, into the lava, into position for flanks, etc.
Perhaps it needs to be reworded that the move action will let you do one of two things:
1) Move the grappled person to an adjacent square of your choice without actually moving yourself
2) Move up to half your move, the grappled person decides which adjacent square they want to be in.
It then requires three successful actions to throw you off a cliff rather than 2:
1) Get the grapple
2) Move to the cliff edge
3) Toss you off the side
Director of Games
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Hmm, I guess I really hadn't thought about moving folks off cliffs. There are some good ideas here. Let me toss one out.
If you move a grappled creature into a dangerous situation it immediately gets to make a check to break free from the grapple.
More thoughts please...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Hmm, I guess I really hadn't thought about moving folks off cliffs. There are some good ideas here. Let me toss one out.
If you move a grappled creature into a dangerous situation it immediately gets to make a check to break free from the grapple.
More thoughts please...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Does a creatures mouth count as a Dangerouse Situation like swallow whole?
Well I know one person in our group who would love that
Was swallowed whole like 8 times in the Age of Worms Adventure Path
Does a creatures mouth count as a Dangerouse Situation like swallow whole?It might.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I am thinking of a Dungeon adventure that I played in not long ago (I think it was one of the Istivin arc adventures) and a behir scrabbled up a cliff and started grappling characters. The DM not being well versed in the grapple rules basically let us off easy and the thing was killed in a few rounds... With the new grapple rules I suddenly see characters being hurled off that cliff in droves, add in the swallow whole bit of the behir and that is pretty much a DM's wet dream scenario.
Which is to say I love the idea! But an automatic grapple check in this case to cling to the behir as it tries to fling you off the cliff is probably a good idea.
If you move a grappled creature into a dangerous situation it immediately gets to make a check to break free from the grapple.
Too inconsitent. Why do I get an extra roll sometimes and not others? Who gets to decide what is dangerous?
Post above has a good point. I fly down, grapple, fly up, let go. Really should get a chance to hang on. So my solution above doesn't quite work either (being able to pick the adjacent square).
Here is the grapple I use in my system (modified PFRPG version):
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a target, hindering their combat options. If you do not have the Improved Grapple feat, attempting to grapple a target provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your grapple. Attempting to grapple a target without two free hands imposes a –4 penalty on your combat maneuver roll. If you succeed on your grapple attempt, you move into the targets square. A grappled target cannot move, takes a -4 penalty to Dexterity, and a -2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuvers, except to break the grapple. In addition, a grappled target can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled target can attempt to cast a spell with a casting time of standard action or less by making a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell. When in a grapple neither the grapplier or the target cannot make attacks of opportunity. On your target’s next turn he can attempt to break the grapple (see Breaking a Grapple). If the target fails to break the grapple, on your next turn you can perform one of the following actions:
Move: You can move both you and your target up to half your speed.
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed damage. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal (character’s choice).
Cast a Spell: You can attempt to cast a spell with a casting time of standard action or less by making an Arcane check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell.
Pin: You can pin your target. A pinned target is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and loses his Dexterity modifier to AC. He takes an additional -4 penalty to Armor Class and is limited in the actions that he can take. A pinned target can always attempt to break a pin (see Breaking a Pin). A pinned target can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned target that attempts to cast a spell must make a S[ellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled.
Maintaining the grapple is a standard action, but you can release a grappled target as a move action, unless the target has grappled you also (see Breaking a Grapple).
Breaking a Grapple: If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check or an Acrobatics check against the grapplers Combat Defense (A.K.A CMB). This check does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally.
Breaking a Pin: If you are pinned, you can attempt to break the pin as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check or an Acrobatics check against the grapplers Combat Defense. If you succeed you break the pin, but are still grappled.
End
With this you can move yourself and the opponent, but you occupy the same. I sure your not going to move yourself into a square thats off a cliff. Though you can move close to the edge of one.
Hell, I kind of like as-is. :P
In fact I wouldn't mind the ability to throw grappled enemies a size smaller than you an additional square or two.
I'd be tossing halflings left and right.
All I would have to figure out is an acceptable damage roll for a ranged halfling attack.
Well really you can still do that. First action start the grapple. Then the little halfling fails to break the grapple on his turn. Your next turn, you automatically maintain the grapple as a standard action and you move the little halfling over to a cliff. On his turn he attempts to grapple you since he knows what your trying to do (tose him over the cliff). He fails (oh s**t!), your next turn you push him/tose him/drop him (whatever) over the cliff as a standard action, (i.e.CMB roll vs his Combat Defense). I least thats how I would run it.
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I was holding off posting my take on grapple until I had a chance to playtest it and I was also hoping for more from the next take on grapple. however its still very lacking in use IMHO so heres my latest rendition on the grapple rules.
It comes in two forms Grapple as a combat maneuver is replaced by Grab while Grapple itself becomes a skill that is merged into escape artist. (this merging is optional and something I only thought about trying this evening)
Thoughts and comments welcome. spelling and proof reading much appreciated ;)
GRAB (REPLACES GRAPPLE)
As a standard action, you can attempt to seize an adjacent foe, hindering their combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, improved grab, or a similar ability, attempting to seize a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. If you successfully grab an opponent, the target may attempt to break the grab as a move action on its turn with a successful CMB check.
If your attack is successful, your target cannot move to a space that is not adjacent without first breaking the grab, but is otherwise unaffected (they retain any dexterity and can move to adjacent squares provoking attacks of opportunity from anyone except the person grabbing them).
If your target is doing nothing but moving when you attempt to grab them you must use a readied standard action to do so. A successful grab halts their movement.
Once you have grabbed your target you can attempt any one of the following as a standard action.
You can only use natural weapons, unarmed attacks, or the whip, or spiked chain, to grab a target.
You may break your own grab as a free action unless you are grappled.
Attack (Standard Attack)
You may use an unarmed attack against your grabbed target as a standard action without provoking an attack of opportunity. You may also choose to deal natural weapon damage if you have them. If you have monk levels you may use your flurry of blows as a full round action but at the end of your turn the grab is broken. If you have Natural weapons such as claws you may also use the full attack action if you have the multi-attack feat but at the end of your turn the grab is broken. If you have a light weapon you may instead deal damage with that but suffer a -4 penalty to the attack roll. You may not use two weapon fighting while you have someone grabbed.
Disarm (Combat Maneuvre)
You can disarm your grabbed target as a standard action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If you are unarmed you can choose to automatically pick up the weapon disarmed without breaking the grab.
Hitch a Ride (Combat Maneuvre)
You can hitch a ride on your grabbed target as a move action instead of halting its movement if you readied an action to grab the target. If it is a quadruped or similar creature that can be used as a mount (such as a dragon) you hold onto the creature and move along with it. If you try to ride a creatures that you cannot because of size or weight both you and the creature fall prone and the grab is broken.
As long as you maintain the grab you continue to move with the creature, if you fail you fall prone in the square the creature began its movement during that round.
While you are maintaining a grab you may attempt a ride check to jump up onto the creatures back giving you the ability to ride the creature. This ends the grab. A saddle provides a +2 bonus to this check while unusual creatures may provide more difficult ride checks to mount.
Throw (Combat Maneuvre)
Throwing a grabbed target results in you physically hurling the creature in a direction of your choice, this requires a DC 15 + CMB check. If you succeed the target lands in any adjacent 5 ft square next to you and suffers 1d6 points of non lethal damage (plus any additional damage that entering that square might incur such as throwing a target into a fire). For each 5 by which you succeed this check the target can be thrown an additional 5 feet suffering falling damage for the distance travelled. You must break the grab to throw someone beyond your natural reach.
Pull (Combat Maneuver)
By making a CMB check against a grabbed target you can pull the creature towards you, success moves the creature 5 feet towards you, for every 5 that you succeed the creature is pulled another 5 foot closer. This is generally used by creatures that have exceptional reach but cannot themselves move, such as assassin vines. To pull in their victims so they can grapple them.
GRAPPLE (NEW SKILL) REPLACES ESCAPE ARTIST (COMBINE SKILLS)
As a standard action you can attempt to grapple and wrestle with your grabbed target.
Grapple (Str) ACP.
Wrestling is the act of physical engagement between two unarmed persons, in which each wrestler strives to get an advantage over or control of their opponent.
To use Grapple you must first grab the target with the grab combat maneuver and be in base contact with that creature. Creatures with greater reach can grab targets within their threatened area but cannot initiate a grapple unless they first pull their victims in to base contact.
As an attack action you can use the grapple skill against your opponent in the following ways.
Hold: By making a successful grapple check against your opponent you must first have two free hands (claws or other appendage that allows you to hold such as a wolves jaw). A successful check indicates that both you and the opponent are now involved in a grapple (gaining the grapple condition). Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to their Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple.
In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character that attempts to cast a spell must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
Once you have someone in a hold you can use additional grapple maneuvers.
Take Down: You may pull a held opponent (someone you have used the hold maneuver on) into a prone position with a successful grapple check. The opponent is not pinned but suffers the usual penalties for being in a prone position (-4 attack -4 AC) on top of the penalties for being grappled.
You can attempt to stand as a move action with a successful grapple check.
Pin: You may attempt to pin a held opponent against a solid surface such as a wall or the floor. A pinned creature cannot move and is considered to have a dexterity of 0, the pinned creature is immobile but not helpless. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself with a successful grapple check. A pinned creature can take verbal (unless gagged) and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned creature that attempts to cast a spell must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell.
Subdue: You may make a grapple check to deal subdual damage to your opponent. A successful check deals 1d6 points of subdual damage +1d6 for each 5 by which your check succeeds.
Damage: You may make a grapple check to deal physical damage to a held opponent. A successful check deals damage equal to your unarmed strike (or natural weapon damage). If you have a light weapon you may instead deal damage with that but suffer a -4 penalty to the grapple check.
Move: You may move a held opponent with a successful grapple check. You can move both you and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you.
Break Hold: If you are skilled at grappling you may make a grapple check to break a hold against you. Doing so is a standard action.
Stand: if you have been taken down and you succeed in breaking the hold on you, you can use a move action to stand again.
Multiple Grapplers: When multiple people join a grapple each must first succeed in a grab. This does not provoke attacks of opportunity from opponents already grappled. All creatures joining a grapple must be in base contact with the target of their grapple. Once you join a grapple you choose a side. For each member on that side above the other gains a cumulative +2 bonus on all grapple checks. For example A Human fighter starts a grapple with a kobold. The kobold is severely at a disadvantage since his grapple check is only +2 while the fighter gets +8. However 5 more kobolds come to the other kobolds aid and each kobold gains a +10 bonus to their grapple check.
Designer Note: Creatures that used to gain a bonus to escape artist due to slippery bodies now only gain this bonus to escape a grapple. Creatures with improved grab gain a bonus only when attempting to grab, hold, or pin an opponent.
Grapple I can see being used in a number of situations:
1) Pick up and drop
2) Pick up and throw
3) Pick up and crush (Yeah...now Giants can do the things they are meant to do)
4) Restrain
I was thinking of Grapple as a skill (and an actual skill that Fighters might actually take). I'm thinking of someone who has been trained in wrestling. The rules, as they are now, presupposes that all characters can grapple fairly equally. I've had some awesome scenes way laid because the grappler just wasn't skilled in grappling and pitting a "grapple check" vs. escape artist is just too easy. If someone has been trained in grappling and restraining, it should be easier for them to accomplish.
In the 3.5 rules, it also seems that the grappler really has no real advantage. (They lose their dex to AC as well) At the very least, if the grapplee is pinned, the grappler should be able to use them as some sort of meat shield. Maybe different "wrestling" maneuvers would have different grappling DCs or DC modifier.
Pile Driver
DC opposed roll + 5
After making a succesful grapple check, you may turn your opponent upside down and slam his head into the ground dealing 1d6 points of damage and is stunned for 1d4 rounds. After this move, your opponent is no longer grappled and both you and your opponent are considered prone.
Meh...just some ideas.
Some good ideas Quijenoth...just so happened we were typing at the same time. I would personally leave Escape Artist separate, giving people who make an opposed Grapple skill check the opportunity to reverse the hold (say if they beat their opponent by like 5 or 10)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Hmm, I guess I really hadn't thought about moving folks off cliffs.
Gee, funny, that was the first thing I thought of doing with it. Unfort ... I mean, fortunately, the party lived.
Let's see, a player in that situation could attempt to maintain the grapple, could attempt to hinder movement (opposed strength checks?), could attempt to break the grapple ...
I like the movement in there ... I like it a lot ... but it should be just a little harder.
"Move: If you succeed on an opposed strength check, you can move both you and your target up to half
your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place
your target in any square adjacent to you."
OR
"Move: You can attempt to move both you and your target up to half
your speed. Attempting to move the target allows the target and additional opportunity to break the grapple. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you."
Well, you can already toss someone off a cliff in one action with a successful Bull Rush, right?
If your near an edge, sometimes you're just screwed.
Being able to drag someone at half your speed after two actions doesn't seem that bad. They will almost always get at least one breakout attempt during the second round.
Well, you can already toss someone off a cliff in one action with a successful Bull Rush, right?
Bull Rush only lets you move a person 5, maybe 10 feet. This allows 15, 20, or more. And a Bull Rush requires me to be in a line between you and the lava whereas this allows the attacker to move in from anywhere and pull me off to anywhere.
Maybe the distance needs to be toned down. Or (have we given up the 'degrees of success' idea with CMB?) maybe the distance moved depends on how well you do on the CM check - 5 feet + 1 foot for every point you beat the DC up to half your speed?
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I've always rules that if you're in a grapple and your foe tries to drop you into a dangerous situation such as off a cliff, the creature being dropped can make a grapple check to stay in the grapple - since leaving the grapple would possibly send them over the cliff. I've always imaginged it as the person about to be dropped desperately grabbing onto the other person's arms, legs, or whatever they can to not be let go of.
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I've always rules that if you're in a grapple and your foe tries to drop you into a dangerous situation such as off a cliff, the creature being dropped can make a grapple check to stay in the grapple - since leaving the grapple would possibly send them over the cliff. I've always imaginged it as the person about to be dropped desperately grabbing onto the other person's arms, legs, or whatever they can to not be let go of.
Essentially, after moving with the grappled opponent, the character must "break free" of the grapple he himself initiated in order to drop the other character into a cliff, and that requires a grapple (or CMB) check. An that's already in the rules, it could be clarified within the move action, though.
That happens because in most situations if the original grappler releases its victim, usually the target of the grapple will also stop grappling. But sometimes that's not the best option.
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I've always rules that if you're in a grapple and your foe tries to drop you into a dangerous situation such as off a cliff, the creature being dropped can make a grapple check to stay in the grapple - since leaving the grapple would possibly send them over the cliff. I've always imaginged it as the person about to be dropped desperately grabbing onto the other person's arms, legs, or whatever they can to not be let go of.
I agree with that.
If someone was trying to dump me somewhere dangerous I would focus on holding onto him instead of looking for something else to grab that he could just kick me off of.If you want to get "realistic", it tends to break down into two general situations:
1. General Grapple
This is plain wrestling and such, with both parties really focusing on grappling each other. Breaking this has to be a mutual agreement.
2. Lock and Control
This is where one person has put a controlling move on the other and can almost freely maneuver the person about by pain compliance/aversion, and release the person at any time without the other person being able to continue the grapple.
This might be the result of a pin, but it is not as easy to move from a general grapple to full control as it may seem, as most pins from such involve full body control rather than only limb control.
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Some good ideas Quijenoth...just so happened we were typing at the same time. I would personally leave Escape Artist separate, giving people who make an opposed Grapple skill check the opportunity to reverse the hold (say if they beat their opponent by like 5 or 10)
I see where your coming from on this however I was thinking that by incorporating grapple and escape artist into the same skill you could introduce a new "Escape Artist" feat that allows a character to use dex instead of str for the grapple skill.
The reverse hold is a nice idea and possibly incorporate this as a new feature of the skill reverse hold as a DC +5 check.
Actually thinking about it on a backwards compatibility level, what if you make grapple a part of the escape artist skill but add the ability to use strength instead of dexterity on escape artist checks when used as part of a grapple into the improved grapple feat? it would retain much more backwards compatibility while giving the bonus feat on the side of the fighter who has the bonus feats to spend.
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Reading over my grapple rules its not entirely clear on how to calculate them.
Grab is a CMB check and uses the rules in the Alpha document on calculating its result.
Grapple check is equal to your grapple skill plus your special size modifier.
The special size modifier for a creature is as follows: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8.
If you are attempting to escape a grapple with escape artist you use the following formula against your opponents grapple check.
Escape artist skill plus special size modifier. The special size modifier for a creature using escape artist is as follows: Fine +8, Diminutive +4, Tiny +2, Small +1, Medium +0, Large -1, Huge -2, Gargantuan -4, Colossal -8. Size modifiers have no effect on using escape artist to escape bonds only when being used to escape a grapple.
I feel the current system is close to fitting the bill and it can do so by using the other manoeuvres as other options for grappling.
I would (and probably play test this weekend) use the “increments of 5+ beyond the CM target” system to include other effects based on the Bull-Rush and Trip manoeuvres or the Damage option or the Pin condition.
Each increment of 5 would allow for a result beyond Grappled determined by the attacker.
Manoeuvres that call for an AoO would give a chance to escape (and not suffer fromthe manoeuver result) as a free action unless the attacker has the appropriate feat or special ability (Improved Trip or Bull-Bush). Bonuses to resist these manoeuvers are applied to this escape roll.
Pin could require the target to be both Grappled and Prone (usually attained threw Trip). So with a result of 10+ over the CM target the attacker could attempt to pin someone on the fist check but the target would get a free chance to escape before being tripped and possibly another free chance before being pinned (not sure if it’s to much chance for the defender but pinned is a fairly severe condition).
Damage could be applied on one increment unless the attacker has a special ability (ex.: constrict).
Bull-rush could allow movement in any direction (not just pushing) but each 5’ requires a 5+ over increment and the target can’t be moved threw the attacker’s space.
The rest still works the same, the first thing you do with your roll is maintain the Grappled condition and the rest come from getting a “5+ over” increment that is helped by the +5 bonus if the victim failed its previous escape chance.
I hope I’m clear enough in my intentions, I always feel that less is more and there are already good mechanics in the other manoeuvres from Alpha1 and they just need to be used to complete Grapple in a simple way.
P.S.:
The Pinned condition could offer the option to stop someone to communicate with other (but not prevent spellcasting if the proper roll is made), I’m sure that would see some use.
Also did anyone notice that it’s possible to have a sequence where attacker A who initiates a Grapple can actually gets Pined by Defender B if he has an action before A’s next attack and he chooses to attempt a Pin instead of trying to escape. Of course if B fails A get the +5 bonus the next check but B might still try.
I personally don’t think it’s a problem, it actually reflects reality to some point as I was explained (an shown) that if you grab someone who’s well trained in grappling (or other grabbing techniques) you might end up getting the table turned on you.
Hope this helps.
I actually like the idea of only being able to move a grappled character if your roll succeededs the DC by 5 or more. That way in game mechanics it indicates that you have a really good hold on them, rather than a tenuous one, and are able to move them.
This could also work for swallowing whole. The grapple must succeed by 5 or more.
5 or more may be too small a number maybe even 10 or more should be the standard. Thoughts?
I really like the grapple rules as they stand now. There have been a couple of situations in our game where a combatant has tried to throw another off a cliff. The defender was moved off the cliff and the grapple was broken on the next round. The DM (me) allowed the defender to make a reflex save to grab the edge of the cliff in one situation, and allowed another to make a climb check to keep from rolling down a very steep hill.
That being said, I made up a new feat:
Combat Throw
You have learned techniques that enable you to use leverage to throw opponents you are grappling with to the ground.
Prerequisites: Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Base Attack Bonus +4
Benefit: If you succeed in using a standard action and a CMB check to break a grapple, you can knock your opponent prone and place them in any unoccupied square adjacent to you. You deal damage to your opponent equal to your unarmed strike, but adding only half your strength bonus to the damage roll. You may only throw an opponent who is one size category larger than you or smaller. If your opponent has more than two legs, +2 is added to the difficulty for each additional leg. Creatures that fly can not be thrown.