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I was thinking that maybe rangers should get to choose their 'Favoured Terrain', or perhaps even choose between 'Favored Enemy' and 'Favored Terrain'? The benefits from this new class ability would be bonuses to skill checks (at least Stealth and Knowledge (Nature)) and *attacks* (instead of damage) whenever you're in your Favored Terrain (e.g. in a forest). The bonuses would increase just like the bonuses against your Favored Enemy/Enemies in 3E. Any thoughts?
I was thinking that maybe rangers should get to choose their 'Favoured Terrain', or perhaps even choose between 'Favored Enemy' and 'Favored Terrain'? The benefits from this new class ability would be bonuses to skill checks (at least Stealth and Knowledge (Nature)) and *attacks* (instead of damage) whenever you're in your Favored Terrain (e.g. in a forest). The bonuses would increase just like the bonuses against your Favored Enemy/Enemies in 3E. Any thoughts?
In the Iron Kingdoms setting the ranger has both a favored enemy and a favored terrain and no spell casting. I really like this verison, but for some reason I'm wanting to see the Ranger focus more on two-weapon fighting than picking up more favored things.
Fizz
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I was thinking that maybe rangers should get to choose their 'Favoured Terrain', or perhaps even choose between 'Favored Enemy' and 'Favored Terrain'? The benefits from this new class ability would be bonuses to skill checks (at least Stealth and Knowledge (Nature)) and *attacks* (instead of damage) whenever you're in your Favored Terrain (e.g. in a forest). The bonuses would increase just like the bonuses against your Favored Enemy/Enemies in 3E. Any thoughts?In the Iron Kingdoms setting the ranger has both a favored enemy and a favored terrain and no spell casting. I really like this verison, but for some reason I'm wanting to see the Ranger focus more on two-weapon fighting than picking up more favored things.
Fizz
I wouldn't mind seeing Paladin and Ranger becoming more focused on divine- and nature-based abilities (and combat) instead of being "half-assed" spellcasters. By the way, that two-weapon fighting has always felt weird to me, and I liked that Ranger in 3.5 could "specialize" in archery. Having said that, 'Favored'-things is *exactly* how I want to see the Ranger evolve, but maybe that's just me?
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I was thinking that maybe rangers should get to choose their 'Favoured Terrain', or perhaps even choose between 'Favored Enemy' and 'Favored Terrain'? The benefits from this new class ability would be bonuses to skill checks (at least Stealth and Knowledge (Nature)) and *attacks* (instead of damage) whenever you're in your Favored Terrain (e.g. in a forest). The bonuses would increase just like the bonuses against your Favored Enemy/Enemies in 3E. Any thoughts?
Agreed. There was a 3.0 (IIRC) variant ranger - in an AEG book - that focused more on terrain competence than in favored enemies.
To give the class a much needed overhaul, I think that it would be good to make some "path specialization", so we can develop a specific terrain expert trapper, a devoted hunter of evil creatures (or a wicked stalker of trophies), and so on.The trap building abilities for hunting and laying ambushes while on its own terrain, should be a devastating element of a class that somehow represents the ultimate hunter.
While the archer/TWF facets of the class are nice options, to me it would be more important to have some more competence outside the purely fighting elements of the game - with this goal in mind, having a ranger on someone's side while exploring the wilderness should as important as having a rogue while exploring trap-laden dungeon ruins.
In Path of the Sword (FFG) there is a nice variant ranger called the 'Outdoorsman' (really needs a new name!) who has a favored terrain ability. It's quite good/nice and compliments favored enemy well - tracking your enemy across your favored terrain is exciting and you know that sucker is going down. :) I don't think it should be an either/or choice though, the ranger should get both.
That said it is important to remember that a ranger will not get to use these abilities all the time, so they need boosting in other ways. Spells should be kept, especially as the fighter skill list has changed and cross class skills are now a viable option - you can already play a non-magical ranger and I don't want to have to multiclass into druid/cleric to get the spell access. Also the weapon choices needs to be a list of bonus feats/abilities a la the fighter. Not all rangers will use either a weapon in each hand or a bow. The Pathfinder iconic has a crossbow and my last character (dwarf ranger) had a spear and shield!
Peace,
tfad
I was thinking that maybe rangers should get to choose their 'Favoured Terrain', or perhaps even choose between 'Favored Enemy' and 'Favored Terrain'? The benefits from this new class ability would be bonuses to skill checks (at least Stealth and Knowledge (Nature)) and *attacks* (instead of damage) whenever you're in your Favored Terrain (e.g. in a forest). The bonuses would increase just like the bonuses against your Favored Enemy/Enemies in 3E. Any thoughts?
Favored Terrain is perfectly introduced in Unearthed Arcana and could be easily adapted.
But funny that you forgot to mention Survival as a skill for the bonuses to apply! ;)And BTW I think this Ranger TWF thing is just one big poser b*llsh*t. If ANYTHING rangers should use ranged weapons or weapons that are of any use in the wilds (like axes, cutlass' or spears).
And BTW I think this Ranger TWF thing is just one big poser b*llsh*t. If ANYTHING rangers should use ranged weapons or weapons that are of any use in the wilds (like axes, cutlass' or spears).
Never dual wielded a battle axe and a hand axe?
Fizz
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I also like the idea of a favored terrain. In fact, I wouldn't mind at all if the Ranger got both. It would make sense in fact!
As for the two weapon fighting thing ... I don't mind it really as an option, although to me the archery path is pretty much the only way to go personally. The two weapon fighting thing is pretty much a result of Drizzt from Forgotten Realms, right? Or am I getting that backwards and they made him a ranger in order to get the two weapon fighting?
By the way, is the Unearthed Arcana variant in the SRD? If so, maybe they could lift it right from there and tweak it.
Anyway, to the original poster - I agree. Adding favored terrain (like in Unearthed Arcana or some other version) sounds like a no brainer.
Jason sir? Make it so!
Please :)
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I'd like to see both favored enemy and favored terrain. One can give bonuses to combat and one to skills [survival, move silently, hide, etc]
I agree that rangers should be more disposed towards archery than two-weapon fighting, but I like that they have a choice.
I also agree that I hate the concept of the ranger as a divine spellcaster. I'd love to see them go in more of a fighter/scout direction instead of a fighter/druid. In order to make it backwards compatible, I'd love to see players to be able to choose between divine spells and the skirmish ability (just as they can choose archery over two-weapon fighting).
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The two weapon fighting thing is pretty much a result of Drizzt from Forgotten Realms, right? Or am I getting that backwards and they made him a ranger in order to get the two weapon fighting?
Icewind Dale: 1988
AD&D 2nd ed.: 1989The following is an extra bonus story told to me by RA Salvatore at a book signing. This was back in the early 90's, so I'm probably not 100% accurate.
Ironically, however, the fact that Drizzt uses two scimitars comes from the fact that originally Salvatore intended to write a sequel to Darkwalker on Moonshae focusing on the character of Daryth. When he found out that Douglas Niles was writing a trilogy and that Daryth had a limited life expectancy, he had to change his plans. So he wrote a different book with a different character, but was so obsessed with the idea of two-weapon scimitar combat that he couldn't let it go.
Director of Brand Strategy
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I was thinking that maybe rangers should get to choose their 'Favoured Terrain', or perhaps even choose between 'Favored Enemy' and 'Favored Terrain'? The benefits from this new class ability would be bonuses to skill checks (at least Stealth and Knowledge (Nature)) and *attacks* (instead of damage) whenever you're in your Favored Terrain (e.g. in a forest). The bonuses would increase just like the bonuses against your Favored Enemy/Enemies in 3E. Any thoughts?
I like the idea. It could round out some of the dead levels as the new rules seem to be trying to do. Alternate between enemy and terrain. Interesting proposition.
I also think that the bonus to favored enemy should be 1d6 extra damage per tier, like a Rogue's sneak attack. This would make the Ranger fill the 4e "striker" role that was mentioned in another thread.
I would like to see the Ranger have Favored X, each time he gets the ability he picks either an Enemy, Terrain, or Organization and each gives slightly different bonuses.
Enemy: +1 attack rolls, +2 damage, +2 Intimidate, +2 Sense Motive, +4 survival to track
ex: Evil Outsider, Aberration, Dragon
Terrain: +2 AC, +2 Perception, +2 Stealth, +4 Survival
ex: Forest, Plains, Desert
Organization: +2 damage, +2 Intimidate, +2 Bluff, +4 Disguise
ex: Cult of Asmodeus, Hellknights, Thieves' Guild of <insert city here>
Each Favored X would also grant a +2 bonus to all Knowledge checks concerning that entity.
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I was thinking that maybe rangers should get to choose their 'Favoured Terrain', or perhaps even choose between 'Favored Enemy' and 'Favored Terrain'? The benefits from this new class ability would be bonuses to skill checks (at least Stealth and Knowledge (Nature)) and *attacks* (instead of damage) whenever you're in your Favored Terrain (e.g. in a forest). The bonuses would increase just like the bonuses against your Favored Enemy/Enemies in 3E. Any thoughts?I like the idea. It could round out some of the dead levels as the new rules seem to be trying to do. Alternate between enemy and terrain. Interesting proposition.
I also think that the bonus to favored enemy should be 1d6 extra damage per tier, like a Rogue's sneak attack. This would make the Ranger fill the 4e "striker" role that was mentioned in another thread.
I personally don't want him to fill the "striker" role, and those "straitjacketed" roles are one of the major issues I have with 4E. ;) But otherwise I agree with you -- I like that mechanics work in a consistent fashion (i.e. same type of mechanics work, at least in principle, the same way for each class) and this bonus would be better than just a simple bonus to attack or damage. Hmmm... and that would make rangers *really* dangerous in their favored terrain against favored enemies.
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I would like to see the Ranger have Favored X, each time he gets the ability he picks either an Enemy, Terrain, or Organization and each gives slightly different bonuses.
Enemy: +1 attack rolls, +2 damage, +2 Intimidate, +2 Sense Motive, +4 survival to track
ex: Evil Outsider, Aberration, Dragon
Terrain: +2 AC, +2 Perception, +2 Stealth, +4 Survival
ex: Forest, Plains, Desert
Organization: +2 damage, +2 Intimidate, +2 Bluff, +4 Disguise
ex: Cult of Asmodeus, Hellknights, Thieves' Guild of <insert city here>Each Favored X would also grant a +2 bonus to all Knowledge checks concerning that entity.
I think that Organizations should be included as a potential 'Favored Enemy' option instead of covering another category (or, if they do, the bonuses should be higher, because Hellknights, for example, should not be as common as Aberrations or Goblinoids ;)). Otherwise, your list of bonuses is pretty much how I thought it would work, except that IMO the damage bonus should work like Rogue's Sneak Attack.
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I was thinking that maybe rangers should get to choose their 'Favoured Terrain', or perhaps even choose between 'Favored Enemy' and 'Favored Terrain'? The benefits from this new class ability would be bonuses to skill checks (at least Stealth and Knowledge (Nature)) and *attacks* (instead of damage) whenever you're in your Favored Terrain (e.g. in a forest). The bonuses would increase just like the bonuses against your Favored Enemy/Enemies in 3E. Any thoughts?Favored Terrain is perfectly introduced in Unearthed Arcana and could be easily adapted.
But funny that you forgot to mention Survival as a skill for the bonuses to apply! ;)And BTW I think this Ranger TWF thing is just one big poser b*llsh*t. If ANYTHING rangers should use ranged weapons or weapons that are of any use in the wilds (like axes, cutlass' or spears).
I was just typing in a frenzy and didn't even take a look at PHB (it's been a while since I've played a ranger ;)) so I only included a couple of skills as an example -- Survival should definitely be on the list. :)
I would like to see the Ranger have Favored X, each time he gets the ability he picks either an Enemy, Terrain, or Organization
emphasis mine
Good call! This should definitely be in there!
tfad
I would like to see the Ranger have Favored X, each time he gets the ability he picks either an Enemy, Terrain, or Organizationemphasis mine
Good call! This should definitely be in there!
tfad
Thanks! I always allow for Favored Organization because my worlds always have tons a world-spanning, powerful organizations. In fact, in one of my campaigns, the party made a huge enemy with one such organization that kept on sending assassins and thugs after them. It also works great for intrigue-type games with an urban "detective"-type ranger who can infiltrate the organization more easily because he has studied them (and thus gets Bluff bonuses to convince the members he is one of their own).
I agree that rangers should be more disposed towards archery than two-weapon fighting, but I like that they have a choice.
With the power bump that classes have received there is no reason that the class can't inherently have both styles of combat at the same time.
I like the idea about Favored Organisation gives a bonus on deception stuff (Bluff and Disguise). So a Ranger(?) can better infiltrate those.
Hmm... might be a good one for the rogue instead. Would take em a step away from being the "guy with the sneak attack".
Or maybe making it just a feat...
I like this idea. I'll be running a playtest game on May 10th, and the only PC we are missing updated rules for it the Ranger. Do you think the following progression will work?
We have a 7th level ranger/1st level Suel Arcanamach. I'll use the same attack bonuses and saves as the fighter, but insert the following power progressions.
Level
1 = Track, 1st Favored Enemy
2 = 1st Favored Terrain
3 = 1st Favored Organization
4 = Two Weapon Fighting, or Archery Bonus Feat
5 = 2nd Favored Enemy
6 = 2nd Favored Terrain
7 = 2nd Favored Organization
How does this sound? I'd be willing to play test it. One question though, would Favored Organization be allowed to include "all arcane spellcasters"? Or would it need to be more specific.
I like this idea. I'll be running a playtest game on May 10th, and the only PC we are missing updated rules for it the Ranger. Do you think the following progression will work?
We have a 7th level ranger/1st level Suel Arcanamach. I'll use the same attack bonuses and saves as the fighter, but insert the following power progressions.
Level
1 = Track, 1st Favored Enemy
2 = 1st Favored Terrain
3 = 1st Favored Organization
4 = Two Weapon Fighting, or Archery Bonus Feat
5 = 2nd Favored Enemy
6 = 2nd Favored Terrain
7 = 2nd Favored OrganizationHow does this sound? I'd be willing to play test it. One question though, would Favored Organization be allowed to include "all arcane spellcasters"? Or would it need to be more specific.
You would need to be a bit more specific with your favored organization, something like "The Wizards of the Ivory Tower" or the "Red Mage Circle", actual organizations. However, it should be more along the lines of an alternate to Favored Enemy, it might not fit in all campaigns.
You would need to be a bit more specific with your favored organization, something like "The Wizards of the Ivory Tower" or the "Red Mage Circle", actual organizations. However, it should be more along the lines of an alternate to Favored Enemy, it might not fit in all campaigns.
To broaden that, could it be The Wizards of Thay, meaning any wizard from a particular country?
I'm putting the rest under spoilers just in case. We are currently running Rise of the Runelords.
Anyway, I really liked your idea. Without playing it, the new abilities seem balanced enough that it wouldn't overpower the ranger, but give him some more areas to shine, especially the Favored Environment. I also like the idea of speeding up the advancement of the Favored Enemy.
However, it should be more along the lines of an alternate to Favored Enemy, it might not fit in all campaigns.
I forgot to add that I agree that Favored Organization has a good chance of not fitting all campaigns. If I have to rank the 3 "Favored" abilities, I'd say Favored Organization is my least favorite. In a campaign that is light on organizations, it could be nearly useless, much like having a Favored Enemy that is never encountered. However, I can't think of anything better at the moment.
Two points:
1) Since Track is already incorporated into survival, the Ranger needs another feat than track. I vote for Fast Track, and the ability to be able to find and follow tracks of DC21+ (like rogues and trapfinding).
2) I think it's more fun to let players choose between enemies, terrains and groups.
Give the ranger a favored XXX at every other level, starting at 1st.
And make it: Improve old enemy/terrain/group OR add a new one at lowest bonus (I don't like this autoimprovement).
To broaden that, could it be The Wizards of Thay, meaning any wizard from a particular country?
I'm putting the rest under spoilers just in case. We are currently running Rise of the Runelords.
** spoiler omitted **
Anyway, I really liked your idea. Without playing it, the new abilities seem balanced enough that it wouldn't overpower the ranger, but give him some more areas to shine, especially the Favored Environment. I also like the idea of speeding up the advancement of the Favored Enemy.
Hmm...if I was DM I think I'd allow the wizards of Thay as a favored organization, but really it would be on a case-by-case basis for a group other than a set-in-stone organization. For example, I wouldn't allow warriors of Thay since there are bound to be many of them while not very many wizards.
I do like the idea of speeding up advancement and allowing the player to choose either terrain, enemy, or organization each time.
I think he meant the RED wizards of thay. I am not quite sure right now, but I think not every wizard in thay is a RED one.
But it's the Red Wizards who are in charge of the land. It's a Magocracy and you have to be a member of the "Red Wizard"-Party in order to achieve political power.
Thus making the RED WIZARDS a group to choose from is perfectly ok.
Yes, I did mean the Red Wizards of Thay. Sorry, I just couldn't think of another comparable group at the time. I've been running homebrews so long I couldn't recall a relevant group for a magocracy.
I agree with the choices at every odd level for Favored XXX (Enemy, Terrain, or Organization). The player could really load up on one enemy, but at the detriment of not having much versatiliy. I could also add in the Tracking idea that would give a bonus like the Rogue's Trapsense ability.
How does this progression look?
1. = Track, Favored X
2. = Advanced Tracking +1
3. = Favored X
4. = Two Weapon Fighting or Archery Bonus Feat
5. = Favored X
6. = Advanced Tracking +2
7. = Favored X
Thanks again for the input.
My vote would be to give the ranger two sets of choices. One would be spells vs. favored organization and the other would be animal companion vs. favored terrain.
It's backwards compatible, minimizes DM labor, provides player choices, reduces the ranger's 2nd best at everything bard syndrome, and reduces its multiple ability score dependency. (If you go the TWF route with spell-casting, you need STR, DEX, CON, INT, and WIS. With the archer route, you could drop STR. With this proposal, the TWF could be down to 4 above average abilities, and the archer could be down to the imminently manageable 3.)
Advanced Tracking might be a bit lame. But I have no other good idea right now.
Thing a ranger could and/or should have:
Skirmish attack
Trackless step
Woodland stride
Wild empathie
Hide in plain sight
Camouflage
Sidenote: An evil FR-Ranger could also take the Harfners as favored organisation. The Zentarim would also work well for FR... Maybe some merchants or thieves guild...
My vote would be to give the ranger two sets of choices. One would be spells vs. favored organization and the other would be animal companion vs. favored terrain.
It's backwards compatible, minimizes DM labor, provides player choices, reduces the ranger's 2nd best at everything bard syndrome, and reduces its multiple ability score dependency. (If you go the TWF route with spell-casting, you need STR, DEX, CON, INT, and WIS. With the archer route, you could drop STR. With this proposal, the TWF could be down to 4 above average abilities, and the archer could be down to the imminently manageable 3.)
I was going to allow the normal spell progression in addition to these abilities. At least in my games, I don't see the rangers using their spells all that often. Sometimes, I think they forget that they have the ability. So I guess, I was only addressing Special Abilities, in addition to the ranger's normal spells.
I also forgot about the animal companion. I only have a 3.0 PHB right now and it doesn't even list Animal Companion under Special Features in the class progression chart.
Advanced Tracking might be a bit lame. But I have no other good idea right now.
I was thinking the same thing, but I don't have any better ideas at the moment. I'm also trying to be cautious of adding too much. I tend to allow too many powers as I like to see them play out. However, I also want to balance it as much as possible.
It may be worth adding Trackless Step at level 2, and Animal Companion at another level to give more than just Advanced Tracking.
To incorporate what you mentioned as things a ranger could or should have, one could add something like "ranger talent" to mimick the rogue's talents. The player could then have the option to choose among Animal Companion, Trackless Step, Woodland Stride, etc.
Good one. But the more I think about it, the more rogue and ranger are getting closer and closer, until the point where they are one class with two different paths to choose from (Rogue/Scout).
Good one. But the more I think about it, the more rogue and ranger are getting closer and closer, until the point where they are one class with two different paths to choose from (Rogue/Scout).
True. Ranger talents may be drawing the ranger too close to the rogue. I've never really had someone play a scout in one of my games, and I'm not a big fan of Skirmish attacks. In fact, I think the Scout could be taken apart to pass more abilities to the Ranger. Something like this (at least for the 7th level PC I need).
Level Special Ability
1 Track, Animal Companion, Favored XXX
2 Trapfinding, Woodland Stride
3 Favored XXX, Trackless Step
4 2 Weapon Fighting, Archer Bonus Feat, or Combat Feat
5 Favored XXX
6 Flawless Stride, Trackless Aura
7 Favored XXX
Regarding Favored Terrain, could "Urban" be a terrain for a city-based or dungeon type ranger?
If I had more time, I was also thinking that Totem abilities from the Totem Warrior Class(Arcana Unearthed) could also fit in place of the fighting style paths. Or even Shifter Traits if one were to imagine them as a manifestation of nature's power in the ranger.
One could also add a power like the Paladin's Divine Bond, but make it an elemental spirit of nature.
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Good one. But the more I think about it, the more rogue and ranger are getting closer and closer, until the point where they are one class with two different paths to choose from (Rogue/Scout).True. Ranger talents may be drawing the ranger too close to the rogue. I've never really had someone play a scout in one of my games, and I'm not a big fan of Skirmish attacks. In fact, I think the Scout could be taken apart to pass more abilities to the Ranger. Something like this (at least for the 7th level PC I need).
Level Special Ability
1 Track, Animal Companion, Favored XXX
2 Trapfinding, Woodland Stride
3 Favored XXX, Trackless Step
4 2 Weapon Fighting, Archer Bonus Feat, or Combat Feat
5 Favored XXX
6 Flawless Stride, Trackless Aura
7 Favored XXXRegarding Favored Terrain, could "Urban" be a terrain for a city-based or dungeon type ranger?
If I had more time, I was also thinking that Totem abilities from the Totem Warrior Class(Arcana Unearthed) could also fit in place of the fighting style paths. Or even Shifter Traits if one were to imagine them as a manifestation of nature's power in the ranger.
One could also add a power like the Paladin's Divine Bond, but make it an elemental spirit of nature.
I like your suggestions -- that Elemental Spirit Bond especially would be marvelous! I would eliminate the barbarian's ability to infuse weapons with elemental power, and give it to the ranger (i.e. you would choose between Elemental Spirt and Animal Companion). Maybe it could work with your missile weapons, too? I hope Jason takes note of this list! :)
The only thing I'm not comfortable with is the two-weapon fighting -- it's always felt odd from a more "realistic" point of view. A ranger should be a warrior who is a peerless tracker and hunter, merciless towards his enemies and most comfortable (and dangeous) in the wilderness.
And I completely agree with you that Skirmish ability is *not* what I'd like the Ranger to have.
I like your suggestions -- that Elemental Spirit Bond especially would be marvelous! I would eliminate the barbarian's ability to infuse weapons with elemental power, and give it to the ranger (i.e. you would choose between Elemental Spirt and Animal Companion). Maybe it could work with your missile weapons, too? I hope Jason takes note of this list! :)
The only thing I'm not comfortable with is the two-weapon fighting -- it's always felt odd from a more "realistic" point of view. A ranger should be a warrior who is a peerless tracker and hunter, merciless towards his enemies and most comfortable (and dangeous) in the wilderness.
Regarding Elemental Spirit Bond, I think it makes more sense for a range as well to manifest elemental powers. Barbarian Rage seems more akin to blood lust and savagery. (Now that I think about it Shifter feats may fit better for advanced barbarian options). And yes, I think the bond could apply to bows or missile weapons. My first mental image was of a ranger pulling back a bow as the arrowhead begins to glow red with elemental fire.
I also hope Jason notices this thread. I not only like the ideas presented, but hope I can get some input before our game on the 10th.
I can also see why some people may not like the two-weapon fighting path. It may not be optimal but I have players who love it. I'd rather see it as an option to keep some groups happy, but as an option to an archery path or another combat feat.
The only thing I'm not comfortable with is the two-weapon fighting -- it's always felt odd from a more "realistic" point of view. A ranger should be a warrior who is a peerless tracker and hunter, merciless towards his enemies and most comfortable (and dangeous) in the wilderness.
I hit submit too soon on that last post. I think the two weapon fighting ranger can be seen as a peerless tracker and hunter too. When my players describe their rangers they tend to be more like Hawkeye in Last of the Mohicans, weilding a tomahawk and a dagger. I've never had them suggest a dual scimitar weilding ranger.
Also keep in mind that the two weapon fighting style did occasionally appear historically among skrimish troops. Often these were weapons that could double as missle weapons. Some Vikings used the axe and spear combination or for this reason. Sword and throwing axe were another popular combination.
Still, this style of fighting is rare, being more common in eastern fighting styles than western.