Just pointing out again -- there are two shape changing spells that give multiple shapes like you suggest: Polymorph Other I & II. So it's not quite as bad as you might think.The Sorcerer
I also agree with someone's comment above that by splitting the spell into multiple different spells the sorcerer gets short changed here. The wizard can learn 12 different shape changing spells and pick the appropriate one for the day. A sorcerer who used to have 1 or 2 polymorph spells now has to use a bunch of his spells known to pick up the same flexibility.
Have you looked at the level on those spells?
This Polymorph revision just bones the the Sorcerer. He can have his old flexibility back, but only if he pays a couple of spell levels.
Have you looked at the level on those spells?
Yes, they're one level higher than the grab-bag of spells they can emulate (level 5 can emulate level 2-4 spells & level 7 can emulate level 2-6 spells). But they have the advantage that you can use them on other party members as well.
I'm not saying you should be happy with Polymorph I & II, but they do exist. If you want to be a shapechanging sorcerer, it's entirely possible to pick up Beast Shape I at level 6, trade it for Polymorph Other I at level 10, then trade that for Polymorph Other II at level 14. You won't be as good as a wizard who can pick up everything one level earlier, naturally, but such is the plight of the sorcerer. :)
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Just pointing out again -- there are two shape changing spells that give multiple shapes like you suggest: Polymorph Other I & II. So it's not quite as bad as you might think.The Sorcerer
I also agree with someone's comment above that by splitting the spell into multiple different spells the sorcerer gets short changed here. The wizard can learn 12 different shape changing spells and pick the appropriate one for the day. A sorcerer who used to have 1 or 2 polymorph spells now has to use a bunch of his spells known to pick up the same flexibility.
Have you looked at the level on those spells?
This Polymorph revision just bones the the Sorcerer. He can have his old flexibility back, but only if he pays a couple of spell levels.
Yeah, I heard that Arcane spellcasters were seriously weak and needed Polymorph spells to be as bad-ass as possible to keep up with everyone else...
What if the caster could also "make-up" shapes not fitting any specific monsters' shape but still within the limits of the spells "enhancements" and/or abilities. It would stop the book-flipping aspect.
Ex.:
I turn to a medium sized howl: gain medium size bonus and fly move. I don't need to have MM2 to know there's a dire hawk (medium flyer).
I turn into a Winged Tiger: gain pounce and fly move. I could have done manticore to be disguised as one but I might not want to look like a usually evil beast at this point.
You could get wonky stuff like flying-aquatic-darkvisionned-horses but I don't think it would break the system and it would give the caster some custom-shape flavour.
Just an idea.
What if the caster could also "make-up" shapes not fitting any specific monsters' shape but still within the limits of the spells "enhancements" and/or abilities. It would stop the book-flipping aspect.
Ex.:
I turn to a medium sized howl: gain medium size bonus and fly move. I don't need to have MM2 to know there's a dire hawk (medium flyer).
I turn into a Winged Tiger: gain pounce and fly move. I could have done manticore to be disguised as one but I might not want to look like a usually evil beast at this point.
You could get wonky stuff like flying-aquatic-darkvisionned-horses but I don't think it would break the system and it would give the caster some custom-shape flavour.
Just an idea.
I agree. Considering that new Monster Manuals come out every year, I think people accept that the universe is a wild place with nearly limitless numbers of crazy things. Seeing a monster ytou've never even heard of is not uncommon for players or characters.
What if the caster could also "make-up" shapes not fitting any specific monsters' shape but still within the limits of the spells "enhancements" and/or abilities. It would stop the book-flipping aspect.
Ex.:
I turn to a medium sized howl: gain medium size bonus and fly move. I don't need to have MM2 to know there's a dire hawk (medium flyer).
I turn into a Winged Tiger: gain pounce and fly move. I could have done manticore to be disguised as one but I might not want to look like a usually evil beast at this point.
You could get wonky stuff like flying-aquatic-darkvisionned-horses but I don't think it would break the system and it would give the caster some custom-shape flavour.
Just an idea.
The idea is sound (pick from a menu of powers), but I'd personally dislike it if I had a player say "I look exactly like I usually do except I can fly (via hidden gasbags), I have darkvision, my skin is as strong as steel, and I can pounce". Not because that is necessarily overpowered, but because it doesn't have the flavour of Polymorph.
What is the flavour of Polymorph? Zan and Jayna, the Wonder Twins. If Zan wants to kick Lex Luthor in the family jewels, he can't just say "Form of -- a normal looking guy who kicks really hard!" No, he needs to say "Form of -- an Ice Mule!" or whatever and then he turns into a freaky-looking monster and does it.
A normal-looking guy who picks from a menu of powers is the equivalent of Ultra Boy from the Legion of Superheroes. A fine superhero, but he's no polymorpher.
I think the Paizo answer to the problem is the best so far.
Like it says in the Alpha book, they saw that the major problem with the spell is that it's attached to such a HUGE number of possible forms and just as many potential problems.
This form allows for (not like "roleplaying" and "style" always come into DnD games) thematically the same aesthetic as the old version of the spells. I agree that the bonuses should be increases to base/racial rather than enhancements. It completely ruins mid to late game use of the spells outside of fancier ways of casting the fly spell and stuff like that. It also really makes the wild-shape variant into sort of a tease.
But to resolve the problem of the spell type and wild shape, you have to admit that the existing spell/ability is rather easily abused.
My problem again, is that they took something that was broken good and easily abusable in myriad ways to a just a broken husk of an really fun and flavorful set of combat/character play options.
I'm also around trying to bolster looks at my thread, since you can't talk druids without diving into the sea of problems with shape-changing.
"Constructive Druid fix thread"
Let me know what you think. If not to change the game, I would like feedback for my own use of these ideas.
Thanks.
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I made a separate thread about this next thing, but I think it'd better be put here as well.
I noticed that with Beast Shape I you can easily choose Deinonychus and receive 4 natural attacks just like that. Of course, you should have a piece of one present first, but nevertheless it holds a problem with certain game balance issues.
I made a separate thread about this next thing, but I think it'd better be put here as well.
I noticed that with Beast Shape I you can easily choose Deinonychus and receive 4 natural attacks just like that. Of course, you should have a piece of one present first, but nevertheless it holds a problem with certain game balance issues.
If you have Eschew Material Components, you won't need a piece.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I just thought, if you wanted to do what is done in Alpha 2 but without nerfing Sorcerers I have an idea.
You could write the spells as one spell of the lowest level it exists, then allow the caster to use metamagic like metamagic effects to raise the effective slot used to gain the higher level effects.
So in essense, a sorcerer learns the first spell like Animal Shape I, but can use II, III, etc by using a higher level slot?
... What is the flavour of Polymorph? ...
Actually each spell version brings a different flavor and the fluff of each spell's allowed "type" from the PF: Monster-Clopedya (or wathever it ends up being called) could be enought to give guide-lines to the spell chosen.
The exemple you give would probably come from a spell allowing Aberation Shapes (witch I'm not sure should exist) or Montrous-Humanoid Shape to be seen
Ex.: Beast Shape I, ... Fly 30 (winged),...
Obviously Alter Self won't have the same flavor as Beast-Shape.
But a "points per caster-level" with "ability costs" could bring down the wonkyness (?) and help with the Natural Attack issues, Cost 1 per d6 dam. on primary and cost 1 for 2x d4 of secondary that could be combined or split. I think It's been brought up with the "astral-construct" reference but I don't use psion-stuff in my game (or library).
Why not just model the polymorph spells after the Summon Monster spells? Create polymorph spells 1-9 each with a list of possible candidates (and the caveat that each can always be used to turn into anything on a lesser list, perhaps with extended duration).
DMs can then add new creatures to the appropriate list as needed.
When you turn into the creature you get all of its stats, except Int, Wis, and Cha. All items worn merge into your body and are inactive and you cannot cast spells.
Just to throw something out there, why couldn't they allow the caster access to a point pool and assign different benefits of that form a point value?
For argument's sake (and let's just take Beast Shape 1), let's give the caster a point pool of one per two caster levels (once more, just for argument's sake). So initially the 5th level caster would have 2 points to work with.
The caster would have some movement-style buffs they could apply, each worth 1 point:
- 30' burrowing
- 30' swimming
- 30' flying
- +30 land speed
The caster could have some physical attribute buffs they could apply:
- Every +2 to a physical attribute would be worth 1 point.
- Every +2 in AC would be worth 1 point.
The caster could have extraordinary abilities:
- Multiattack is worth 1 point.
- 25' cone breath weapon that does level/2 d6 damage is 3 points
- Natural attack of 1d6+1/level is 1 point
I think this is the best idea so far of working with the current PRPG set up I've seen so far, but what's wrong with shape-changing being a "combat spell"? I know when I play druids, I love bear and dire bear, not only because turning into a bear is cool flavor-wise but because they are good tanks and can grapple, etc. It all comes back to the piddly amount of stat increase you get. I always thought wild-shape was so strong (not factoring in natural spell) was to balance not being able to cast spells and not having a full BAB, and not being able to use your enchanted armor and weapons (assuming you weren't turning into an ape or dire ape ;-) ).
But again, this is a really good idea imo, based on what they've given us.
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Have you looked at the level on those spells?Yes, they're one level higher than the grab-bag of spells they can emulate (level 5 can emulate level 2-4 spells & level 7 can emulate level 2-6 spells). But they have the advantage that you can use them on other party members as well.
I'm not saying you should be happy with Polymorph I & II, but they do exist. If you want to be a shapechanging sorcerer, it's entirely possible to pick up Beast Shape I at level 6, trade it for Polymorph Other I at level 10, then trade that for Polymorph Other II at level 14. You won't be as good as a wizard who can pick up everything one level earlier, naturally, but such is the plight of the sorcerer. :)
This is my point, it would be nice if a sorcerer could pick up just the base spell and inherit the rest of the spell chain since it is essentially the same spell but with different power levels.
Even then the Sorcerer would still need to pick up Beast Shape *, Elemental Body *, Plant Shape *, Giant Shape *, and Dragon Shape *. Still a long shot from Polymorph Self but he would be a true shifter.
I'm really liking the list of abilities that you can gain in release 2. It's so much quicker than Wizard's "extraordinary abilities" and "spell-like abilities" that brings play to a stop as everyone looks up darkvision to see what category it falls under.
I also like that con scores don't change so there is no recalculation of hit points and fortitude saving throws.
I am, however, not liking that you don't gain the creature's strength score because recalculating the damage the assumed form's natural attacks do will bring play to a stop.
Truth be told, I'd rather not have dex affected at all so you don't have to recalc saving throws or range attack bonuses, and just have the character gain the natural armor of the assumed form [up to a limit set in each spell if deemed necessary] modified by their own dex.
Shameless plug for my shapechanging spells fix and addition :P
Plug link
This is my point, it would be nice if a sorcerer could pick up just the base spell and inherit the rest of the spell chain since it is essentially the same spell but with different power levels.Even then the Sorcerer would still need to pick up Beast Shape *, Elemental Body *, Plant Shape *, Giant Shape *, and Dragon Shape *. Still a long shot from Polymorph Self but he would be a true shifter.
I disagree that you need all of those. The only really useful spells in the Polymorph sequence are Beast Shape I (level 3), Polymorph Other I (level 5), Polymorph Other II (level 7) and Shapechange (level 9). Every other polymorph spell gets made obsolete one spell level later (e.g. the level 4 spell Elemental Body I gets made obsolete by Polymorph Other I).
When I said "Such is the plight of the sorcerer", I meant that it'd be great to pick up a bunch of marginal spells for free but being a sorcerer is about having limited choices.
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The only really useful spells in the Polymorph sequence are Beast Shape I (level 3), Polymorph Other I (level 5), Polymorph Other II (level 7) and Shapechange (level 9). Every other polymorph spell gets made obsolete one spell level later.
I suppose if you want to burn a 5th level spell slot every time you poly then that's fine. But if you just want to pick up an Elemental Form for using earth glide you burn a 5th level spell slot. So the sorcerer gets the choice of burning spells known on all the different forms or burning spell levels by using a higher level spell. :(
When I said "Such is the plight of the sorcerer", I meant that it'd be great to pick up a bunch of marginal spells for free but being a sorcerer is about having limited choices.
I understand that, that is always been the sorcerers toughest choice. But my point is that this change hurts the sorcerer disproportionately more than the wizard.
I suppose if you want to burn a 5th level spell slot every time you poly then that's fine. But if you just want to pick up an Elemental Form for using earth glide you burn a 5th level spell slot. So the sorcerer gets the choice of burning spells known on all the different forms or burning spell levels by using a higher level spell. :(
If I had a wizard who had the choice of memorizing Elemental Form I (a 4th-level spell that can only affect the wizard himself) or Polymorph Other I (a 5th-level spell that has a huge amount more flexibility -- more forms + can be used on any member of the party), there'd be no contest in my mind. See, that's the plight of the wizard -- he has to prepare his spells in advance without knowing what he'll face. For him there's a big advantage to memorizing flexible spells over "niche" spells which may not get any use.