The new 4th ed introduced in D&D an idea for characters to heal themselves a bit without the need of a Cleric or potions/wands, etc.. This is a concept with witch I have toyed a while at my game table in different forms: Characters making Con tests to heal a little bit after battle, Fortitude saves, Heal skill checks, some magical energy that heals them once in a while, etc...
Anyway, I thought this improved my gaming a lot, it actually gave the character a lot more of a "battle-hard-hero-struggling-to-go-on" look; taking a time to catch a breath and tending to the fresh wounds after a strenuous battle; or just getting themselves motivated, inspired to go on again (and in that way a little HP back), or just a magical energy in the place that healed them once in a while; all that made the game flow much more briskly. They didn't have to stop the course of game only coz one of them got hit too badly, and since they went on for longer, it made the sorcerer plan a lot more on its spells.
So, personally, from my playtesting, I´d really like to see Paizo add something like that to their Pathfinder RPG, it would make me consider it a lot better. Second Winds, Heal checks, Con tests, Fort checks, Action Points, etc... whatever sounds better, that can be discussed. The point is that the ability for characters to heal up a bit by themselves should be in the game in some way... at least for me...
A special application of the Heal skill that heals hit points between encounters would work IMO.
A successful Heal check could heal a number of HP equal to the half the injured characters level + their Con modifier.
Its not game breaking and gives the party a little bit more longevity.
Reserve Points is Iron Heroes right? If I´m not mistaken... or at least they have something of the kind.
Works fine for me, like I said, what I want first is to know if they are going with this sort of thing in Pathfinder RPG, I´d really appreciate a word from Jason on this matter (hope he sees it).
tnks for the replies
The new 4th ed introduced in D&D an idea for characters to heal themselves a bit without the need of a Cleric or potions/wands, etc.. This is a concept with witch I have toyed a while at my game table in different forms: Characters making Con tests to heal a little bit after battle, Fortitude saves, Heal skill checks, some magical energy that heals them once in a while, etc...
Anyway, I thought this improved my gaming a lot, it actually gave the character a lot more of a "battle-hard-hero-struggling-to-go-on" look; taking a time to catch a breath and tending to the fresh wounds after a strenuous battle; or just getting themselves motivated, inspired to go on again (and in that way a little HP back), or just a magical energy in the place that healed them once in a while; all that made the game flow much more briskly. They didn't have to stop the course of game only coz one of them got hit too badly, and since they went on for longer, it made the sorcerer plan a lot more on its spells.
So, personally, from my playtesting, I´d really like to see Paizo add something like that to their Pathfinder RPG, it would make me consider it a lot better. Second Winds, Heal checks, Con tests, Fort checks, Action Points, etc... whatever sounds better, that can be discussed. The point is that the ability for characters to heal up a bit by themselves should be in the game in some way... at least for me...
Dear God no. If I wanted that I would go play 4th.... they seem to be making the all classes are equal thing and no one class is necessary as their central focus, centered around the healing surge and the daily and encounter powers thing.
I'm throwing my interest that I should be having for 4th edition towards this project instead, as 4th edition is clearly not the direction I want my table top experience to go.
I'd rather see spells along the lines of the Vigor line of spells (complete divine I think) that healed a lot, over a longer period of time. It was more efficient than a cure light wounds, (healed 1 hit per round per caster level + 10 rounds.) Spells like this allowed me to play full time healer with my Druid. (well that and a spontaneous casting of heal spells feat) I wasnt as good a dedicated healer as a cleric but it worked, and worked well.
I'd much rather see a line of very efficient healing spells that work well after the battle. Heck a wand of lesser vigor heals 550 hit points, not bad for 750 gp.
Non Magical heals just dont strike me as that appealing. Personally more effective heals that don't trivialize the battle would accomplish the same thing.
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I don't know where I saw it, but I'm intrigued by the idea of expanding the 'dying' state, from -10hp, to (-CON)hp, and expanding the 'disabled' state, from the current rule of 'at zero hp...', to 'between zero and (minus CON bonus) hp...'.
This could increase the instances of 'battling on despite great pain' that you describe, which currently just doesn't happen very often, since it is rare to drop someone to exactly zero hp.
I don't know that PCs actually need extra healing, but this could mitigate the effects of a fluke hit or crit.
EDIT: The Diehard feat would have to be reworded to 'extend the disabled state by an extra 9hp', which would still allow such a character to still have a large 'disabled' state, and a 'dead & dying' state, rather than just 'fine' and 'dead'.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Reserve Points is Iron Heroes right? If I´m not mistaken... or at least they have something of the kind.
Works fine for me, like I said, what I want first is to know if they are going with this sort of thing in Pathfinder RPG, I´d really appreciate a word from Jason on this matter (hope he sees it).
tnks for the replies
Reserve points were introduced in Unearthed Arcana, but then used in Iron Heroes. I never checked if they're used identically or if they are slightly different versions.
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The new 4th ed introduced in D&D an idea for characters to heal themselves a bit without the need of a Cleric or potions/wands, etc.. This is a concept with witch I have toyed a while at my game table in different forms: Characters making Con tests to heal a little bit after battle, Fortitude saves, Heal skill checks, some magical energy that heals them once in a while, etc...
Anyway, I thought this improved my gaming a lot, it actually gave the character a lot more of a "battle-hard-hero-struggling-to-go-on" look; taking a time to catch a breath and tending to the fresh wounds after a strenuous battle; or just getting themselves motivated, inspired to go on again (and in that way a little HP back), or just a magical energy in the place that healed them once in a while; all that made the game flow much more briskly. They didn't have to stop the course of game only coz one of them got hit too badly, and since they went on for longer, it made the sorcerer plan a lot more on its spells.
So, personally, from my playtesting, I´d really like to see Paizo add something like that to their Pathfinder RPG, it would make me consider it a lot better. Second Winds, Heal checks, Con tests, Fort checks, Action Points, etc... whatever sounds better, that can be discussed. The point is that the ability for characters to heal up a bit by themselves should be in the game in some way... at least for me...
Dear God no. If I wanted that I would go play 4th.... they seem to be making the all classes are equal thing and no one class is necessary as their central focus, centered around the healing surge and the daily and encounter powers thing.
I'm throwing my interest that I should be having for 4th edition towards this project instead, as 4th edition is clearly not the direction I want my table top experience to go.
I'd rather see spells along the lines of the Vigor line of spells (complete divine I think) that healed a lot, over a longer period of time. It was more efficient than a cure...
Know Remorse, I agree wholeheartedly. Copying 4E defeats the purpose of Paizo staying with 3.5. If I wanted to play a game like that I would go by WOTC's version. A fighter suddenly healing himself is not what D&D is or ever was, about. When they changed that and other stuff like that, I decided to drop out. Paizo takes the torch and does the same thing?!? That would be a really bad and idiotic move. The OP should be flogged for suggesting it.
Know Remorse, I agree wholeheartedly. Copying 4E defeats the purpose of Paizo staying with 3.5. If I wanted to play a game like that I would go by WOTC's version. A fighter suddenly healing himself is not what D&D is or ever was, about. When they changed that and other stuff like that, I decided to drop out. Paizo takes the torch and does the same thing?!? That would be a really bad and idiotic move. The OP should be flogged for suggesting it.
It´s hard even to start, but well.. anyway. Maybe you have missed the point of these boards: Playtesting. People share their opinion about some set of rules, how they worked out for them during game. People are different, something that works for one maybe doesn’t work for someone else, and that's just normal; what would be weird was if everyone agreed on everything all the time.
Now, at first I also didn't like this “self healing” idea, seemed to cheap, too “videogame-ish”; but after trying it out, specially in a low-magic setting without your Healing Wands at the market, and no cleric in the group; the idea started to make sense and improved the gaming. The healing, like said before, does not have to be magical, could be “tending the fresh would after battle”, or maybe taking some deep-breath and getting inspired again (HP are not only physical damage as we all know); there are many possibilities for it; and seeing that, there's no reason a fighter couldn't heal himself up a little bit. Why regaining his confidence, taking a short rest to tend to his wounds couldn't help him?
The way you write with all this “idiotic” and “flogging” thing seemed childish, I would ask how old were you but there is no point, it's personal. Instead I'll give you an advice: Try not to judge a rule you only saw written, try to test it before, see how it goes; it might change your mind (or it might not). As an example, if you ever saw Guardians of Order's “A Game of Thrones RPG”, they have very detailed rules for combat, where they pay attention to the pieces of your armor, it makes a difference whether you're wearing padded legging with your breastplate or not, if your helmet is open of closed, etc... You can even try to hit less protected parts of someone wearing armor. Now, while all that is extremely realistic, it slows down game play too much, when I read it at first, I thought “Whoa, this is the most detailed and realistic form of D20 combat I have ever seen, this will bring a nice touch to the game”; but when we even began trying it, it slowed the game too much, too much stopping and rolling dice and too much math for a simple combat.
So, again, try it out before, no magical healing, just some short rests, some time to catch a breath and tend to the wounds. And also, we're not talking about a 700 hp healing, only a few.
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It´s hard even to start, but well.. anyway. Maybe you have missed the point of these boards: Playtesting. People share their opinion about some set of rules, how they worked out for them during game. People are different, something that works for one maybe doesn’t work for someone else, and that's just normal; what would be weird was if everyone agreed on everything all the time.Now, at first I also didn't like this “self healing” idea, seemed to cheap, too “videogame-ish”; but after trying it out, specially in a low-magic setting without your Healing Wands at the market, and no cleric in the group; the idea started to make sense and improved the gaming.
So you decided that a rule you use, playing in very non-standard game without a certain standard class in the party, would be a good fit for the standard game....Yeah, my mistake for calling that out.
Self-healing is cheap and videogame-ish for standard D&D,IMO.If you care to playtest the system I would suggest trying it out in a standard campaign. I am already kicking the tires in two, soon to be three, games. All pretty standard faire.
If you decided to run a game where fighters could only use light weapons then a rule to increase damage output would probably make sense there also, but placing that rule back into a standard game is a bad idea.
Sorry if you can't take a little criticism.
Here was my quote---
"Copying 4E defeats the purpose of Paizo staying with 3.5. If I wanted to play a game like that I would go buy WOTC's version. A fighter suddenly healing himself is not what D&D is or ever was, about. When they changed that and other stuff like that, I decided to drop out. Paizo takes the torch and does the same thing?!? That would be a really bad and idiotic move."
Sure, I tossed in a joke about flogging. So?
You posted looking for opinions and when you got one you didn't like you decided to question the my maturity. That sounds mature.
BTW 37 years old here.
All flogging aside...
I read through the reserve points and it does resemble a house-rule I've implemented in the game I'm currently running. It allows the players to heal a small amount of hitpoints if they tend to their wounds after the fight with the condition that if, say, a minotaur smashed you up something wicked and nearly broke your arm then you'd try to get it across that your arm is messed up until some more effective healing can be administered (long term heal checks, magical healing etc). This kind of healing is not as effective as magical healing, since if you strain yourself too much or use a wounded limb for example your efforts may reverse what you gained. So say I dislocate my shoulder and I get healed for 3 hp, my arm is placed in a sling and I avoid using it except for light activity. But soon after we finish bandaging it we get ambushed by ninjas and I grap my greatsword with the dislocated arm and swing it mightily at a ninja then I't propably remove those 3 hp's he just gained since everything they did to fix it is gone. For smaller things it could be just 1 point of damage etc.
An example from a recent game is when the ranger had his leg sliced up badly by a raging Troglodyte (critical hit allocated to his leg). After slaying the beast the ranger hobbled over to a tree stump, pulled off his armor and the monk helped him sew and bandage up the wound. The Ranger player opted to use the house healing rule so he healed by a small amount (I forget the exact amount, I tend to base it off how much it will inconvenience your character to roleplay the injury, I think it was a d6). He then used the fighter as a support as they descended deeper into the troglodyte caves, later using the walls as support. After killing a troglodyte shaman he used his staff as a makeshift crutch, the seams split when they needed to jump across a ravine, so a few hp got removed there and so on.
It's not an attempt to hamstring my players, if they want to go the way RAW D&D then no one gets scars, breaks their limbs, twists an ankle etc. But like this it encourages roleplaying and gives them a little something for their trouble.
Now, this is clearly a house-rule and I would not actively advocate for placing that in the Pathfinder RPG since it is clearly not for everyone. But it still remains that there are plenty of settings where magical healing may not be readily available. My group of 6 players (Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, Monk, Psion, Sorcerer) does not have any divine healing class. The group does not suck though, they're capable of a lot of stuff, especially since I don't take the stance that non magical and mundane healing has "no meaningful effect" save for helping with poison or disease (which if you have magical healing available you can most likely magic away).
The monk is a skilled bone setter and healer, the ranger and rogue are familiar with anatomy and use that knowledge to help give aid to wounded players and people. I've DM'ed plenty of groups with a cleric or another healing class and rarely do I see the kind of group synergy as I see with this group. It matters if you get chopped by that raging longsword wielding lizardman and everyone pitches in to help.
I think a mechanic that allows for more D&D-esque adventuring without having to resort to divine healer classes to be an excellent addition to the game. There's no need to incorporate this into the core rules, a simple sidebar about "Adventuring without a healer!" is enough to get the ball rolling to those that for some reason don't include such classes or abilities.
p.s.
I'd just like to reiterate that this house rule is non-compulsory in my games. If you prefer when you have 10 hitpoints and get smashed down to 1 that nothing really changes about you; You can still run as fast, benchpress as much, swing your sword as effectively etc. Then that's fine. But I've found this rule encourages roleplay, especially since you gain something by roleplaying. We've had some very heroic scenes as well in large part due to the PC's being capable of being "wounded" without that only meaning that their current HP is lower than their max HP.
Another example placed in spoiler tags to make my post look less like the wall of text it's starting to resemble.
The group was up a mountain on a small plateau with a nauseatingly long drop on all sides. A young hill giant was, at this point, busy beating the life our of the sorcerer and psion who had kept it occupied while the others were taking care of the giants' hobgoblin buddies. The giant snatches up the sorcerer and pummels him into the ground. The sorcerer is a close friend of the fighter and seeing his lifeless form bounce off the ground (the sorcerer dropped to negative HP), made the fighter snap. Ignoring his wounds he bounded towards the giant and body slammed him off the side off the cliff using some of his action points, draining his con for a feat of strength (presented in Eberron and I think in Quinessential Half-orc respectively). Needless to say his wounds opened up fresh as flowers and as the giant was still falling the fighter lay there, bandages turning rosy with blood as he slipped into unconsciousness.
This scene was so intense that it alone validated my house-rule to me. This is not counting the countless scenes that it has created as the players try to not get hit or wounded. It also sparked off a large discussion about the nature of armor. Currently it doesn't matter at all if you wear a helmet, greaves and a breastplate or just a some large intimidating shoulder pads +3. Again, I fully realize the intent is to speed up play as was pointed out with the Game of Thrones reference. But I guess what I'm trying to say that there are plenty of people out there that artificially make their combats more complicated or add loads of extra rules into their games. If the number of such people is high enough I think it atleast warrants a mention, who knows if more people were exposed to ideas on how to heal your wounds in a mundane way or how to make armor matter more DM's and players might like them and they could bring new ideas to the table.
Anyways, thanks for pointing me in the direction of the Reserve Points. I'll see how I might be able to incorporate them for some of my less RP-oriented but no less mundane groups! ^____^
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Hi Folks ... this is my first post to Paizo's boards ... please be gentle ;-)
I've been following the Pathfinder RPG evolution since I learned that Paizo will not be going to 4E. While there are some nice things in 4E, I think I'll be sticking with 3.5 and, if I can convince my players, using Pathfinder RPG.
I've been thinking about the self-healing problem for my 3.5 campaigns since I first got wind of the 4E healing surges. I think the main point to the original post was more in line with resolving the 15 minute adventuring day problem. I think reserve points are one way to go in this direction. Another that I will be testing out is the idea of a class feature or feat (see below).
I think this keeps the mechanic in line with existing 3.5 mechanics and provides a 4E encounter-like metric to 3.5 encounters. It would be appropriate for any divine caster, I think. If anyone sees any glaring holes, I'm sure you'll speak up ;-)
New Feat
Healing Circle [Divine]
Prerequisite
Divine Caster Level 1+
Benefit
For each full, uninterrupted minute that a number of participants
engage in prayer with the you, each receives 1 hit point per caster
level in healing (not to exceed each participant's maximum hit
points.) The maximum number of people that can participate in this
prayer circle is CL + (WIS or CHA modifier, whichever is higher) + 2.
Each participant must be within 10' of the caster and in physical
contact as the healing energies flow from the caster to each
participant.
This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to your WIS
or CHA modifier, whichever is higher.
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Hi Folks ... this is my first post to Paizo's boards ... please be gentle ;-)
I've been following the Pathfinder RPG evolution since I learned that Paizo will not be going to 4E. While there are some nice things in 4E, I think I'll be sticking with 3.5 and, if I can convince my players, using Pathfinder RPG.
I've been thinking about the self-healing problem for my 3.5 campaigns since I first got wind of the 4E healing surges. I think the main point to the original post was more in line with resolving the 15 minute adventuring day problem. I think reserve points are one way to go in this direction. Another that I will be testing out is the idea of a class feature or feat (see below).
I think this keeps the mechanic in line with existing 3.5 mechanics and provides a 4E encounter-like metric to 3.5 encounters. It would be appropriate for any divine caster, I think. If anyone sees any glaring holes, I'm sure you'll speak up ;-)
New Feat
Healing Circle [Divine]Prerequisite
Divine Caster Level 1+Benefit
For each full, uninterrupted minute that a number of participants
engage in prayer with the you, each receives 1 hit point per caster
level in healing (not to exceed each participant's maximum hit
points.) The maximum number of people that can participate in this
prayer circle is CL + (WIS or CHA modifier, whichever is higher) + 2.
Each participant must be within 10' of the caster and in physical
contact as the healing energies flow from the caster to each
participant.This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to your WIS
or CHA modifier, whichever is higher.
Now see, I like this but I would like to see the mechanic look more like 5 hp per 10 minutes. Then it is something that could be used but it takes up time so doing it in a dungeon too much would be difficult.
Pathfinder already allows the turn undeads to work as healing bursts(1d6+1d6 per 2 levels in a 30' burst) so this really would be like a last resort thing.|
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Now see, I like this but I would like to see the mechanic look more like 5 hp per 10 minutes. Then it is something that could be used but it takes up time so doing it in a dungeon too much would be difficult.
Pathfinder already allows the turn undeads to work as healing bursts(1d6+1d6 per 2 levels in a 30' burst) so this really would be like a last resort thing.
Thanks, this is great feedback. The whole point of this is to allow for parties to continue adventuring without having to wait a whole day to recover. Changing the duration seems like a reasonable option. If we're talking about an average divine caster with a +3 wisdom or charisma modifier, this would enable them to have four encounters without having to resort to a full day's rest, and the caster will still have all of their other abilities that are more combat-centric such as healing bursts.
All flogging aside...
I read through the reserve points and it does resemble a house-rule I've implemented in the game I'm currently running. It allows the players to heal a small amount of hitpoints if they tend to their wounds after the fight with the condition that if, say, a minotaur smashed you up something wicked and nearly broke your arm then you'd try to get it across that your arm is messed up until some more effective healing can be administered (long term heal checks, magical healing etc). This kind of healing is not as effective as magical healing, since if you strain yourself too much or use a wounded limb for example your efforts may reverse what you gained. So say I dislocate my shoulder and I get healed for 3 hp, my arm is placed in a sling and I avoid using it except for light activity. But soon after we finish bandaging it we get ambushed by ninjas and I grap my greatsword with the dislocated arm and swing it mightily at a ninja then I't propably remove those 3 hp's he just gained since everything they did to fix it is gone. For smaller things it could be just 1 point of damage etc.
................
Those rules of yours seemed interesting, would you mind getting into a little more details on how it works? Reading the scene with the fighter pushing the giant from the cliff; how do you deal with "being too hurt, cannot move" and "damn it, my friend is getting smashed, **** the wounds!"?
There has been a lot of mention of action points, how do you people use them? Like Iron Heroes? Unearthed Arcana and Eberron seems to use them also, right? How do they work?
I´m almost afraid to address FakeHealer... a bit delicate.. well, anyway.... gently speaking, I might have misspoken, but my setting is pretty much "standard", there´s just no Cleric in the group (nothing exceptional here), no one with magical healing and scarcely few magical stores, so it´s naturally hard to come by Healing Wands. And even in a high fantasy setting like Forgotten Realms you could easily find yourself without the means for magical healing, the fact that it's a high fantasy world doesn't mean there should be healing wands and potions scattered everywhere. And more important, even if there were magical potions and wands easily available it doesn't mean a fighter shouldn't learn to tend wounds without the sort of thing.
Maybe it´s not the best thing to compare but it works... it´s like in today´s world; even with all the GPS technology explorers still know how to use a compass and a map; you never know when your electronic equipment might fail or you can´t get a signal.. or.. whatever... you got the point.
Sure I'll clarify the "Bandage" system abit, I'll start with an intro to the hitpoint system as I see it with the bandage system added into it.
I think the best way to look at it is to imagine that you have your total hitpoints, a lethal damage pool, a subdual damage pool and then a bandage pool.
Taking damage is treated as normal, it is simply assigned to its proper pool; lethal or subdual. Once your hitpoint pool reaches zero (the sum of your lethal + subdual = Total) you are staggered and close to losing consciousness. Once the total damage you have is equal to more than your total hitpoints you are unconscious and dying.
The way the "Bandaging" works is that you can move points from your lethal damage pool to the bandage pool with a successful heal check, thus excluding it from the "Am I staggered or unconscious?" equation. However, these hitpoints can be fleeting as they are dependent on you artificially reducing what you can do through roleplaying.
The amount of hitpoints you bandage is dependent on how you fix it and how much it will inconvenience you. An example:
A group of level 2 adventurers gets ambushed by a raging orc barbarian. The barbarian jumps on the wizard hitting him in the arm with his maul for 5 damage, bringing the wizards current hitpoints from 7 to 2. The group quickly dispatches the raging orc and looks to their wounded wizard.
Lacking any magical healing the wizard "realizes" that the foul smelling beast has broken his arm! The ranger of the group makes a brace out of some branches and they set the fracture until such a time as they can have it properly checked out. The loss of a limb is pretty severe so it is ruled as a 1d6 bandage roll with a +1 bonus due to their communal heal checks. The wizard manages a 5 and they push on to their goal. However, the wizard must now refrain from using that arm until they can reach a cleric or a more skilled healer, or to wait until the fracture heals itself naturally. However, due to him being bandaged in such a way, he was able to survive when the goblins attacked them. He refrained from using his arm and made do with one arm. He received 2 points of lethal damage and 2 points of subdual damage in the goblin encounter. His current hitpoints stand then at 1, he has 4 lethal damage, 2 subudal damage and 5 bandaged hitpoints. If he were to armwrestle with the fighter now using his broken arm, the pain it would cause him would very likely make him pass out, and it might even cause internal bleeding. The same would apply if he were to use his broken arm for anything than the lightest of activities. The amount of bandaged "reversal" is entirely dependent on the activity performed but it will never exceed the amount in his bandage pool (so you don't hurt yourself more than you bandaged for, for fairness sake).
Ok, that's an example of how the system works. As I said before, this particular system I always just intended for my own games. I prefer low level play, and the lack of a healer in the group didn't help things so I came up with an alternative. I've got no experience using this system in a game with hitpoints above 50, but I imagine the die total increases. It's also worth noting you can't bandage for more than your damage total, any excess bandaged hitpoints are wasted.
If the player wants to take an action that'll compromise his bandaged state, I'll point it out to him and if applicable I'll add a penalty to the roll (a man with a broken leg jumping off a moving wagon for instance).
But I think what prevents this particular incarnation of the Bandage system from being a widely applicable rule is that I think I run my combats abit differently. Personally I love running combat scenes, I usually stand up and act the scenes out and ask my players to do the same if they want to do something specific. I find it synergizes everyone and brings them more into what is going on rather than if I'd do something like "The orc attacks with a sword *roll* he hits *roll* for 5 damage, John it's your turn".
Instead it's more like "The slavering orc spits out a curse in orcish as he lunges at you with his sword *DM lunges at the player and rolls* and his sword slices into your shoulder for 5 damage. John what do you want to do, that beast almost hacked your friends arm off!"
The difference I think lies in that I tend to assign damage to locations or give reasons for it atleast. As we all realize the hitpoint system is an abstraction, so not all damage is actual "damage" it could mean alot of things but for the hits that take you down by a large portion of your HP I'll most likely assign a hit location, either just what makes sense from the combat or from a hit location table.
As I said, my players tend to use the rule if they need to push on for more than just the combat they got damaged in and for my particular group it works well. I also changed how negative hitpoints work. You now die once your hitpoints reach -10 + Your Level, the Toughness feat adds its 3 hitpoints to the "Death hitpoints" as well.
So a level 1 character normally dies at -11 but with toughness dies at -14, it finally made the feat worthwhile to take and I'll definitely import this rule into the PFRPG.
I'd love to see a system for mundane healing that is not dependant on the DM or players to work (as I think mine is).
Any more thoughts or questions?
This is something I've come up with and used. I wouldn't consider it self healing but just a way of saying that a certain amount of damage taken in one hit actually represent a physical wound. All other damage is fatigue, luck etc. that hit points encompass. That all comes back to you at the end of combat.
Wound Threshold
Anytime a character takes damage equal to 1/3 of their hit points in one shot they take a wound. Wounds can only be healed quickly through magic. Otherwise the character must rest.
Wounds also have some negative effects:
1st 1/3 = Battered
Effect: May only take a Standard and Move action during a round.
2nd 1/3 = Badly Injured
Effect: Movement is reduced by 10'.
3rd 1/3 = Incapacitated
Effect: Movement is reduced to 0. No actions can be taken by the character. Character is unconscious.
All other damage taken during the encounter goes away at the end of combat.
Dreihadar, you sure have to play low level with this system, although very "gritty" and realistic, it involves a lot bookeeping, but its something, this "Bandage pool" seemed a good idea, the would is healed as long as its stays treated/untouched/somehow kept, etc... should the bandage come off the wound "comes back", something like that right? You allow for some decent healing throughout the game without sounding "Om I´m cool, let´s go", you have to watch for your bandages.
Naszir, I´ve tried something a little similar, you´d get penalties as your hp gets too low, no matter where it came from (that is, doesn´t have to be 1 attack1. So at 50% you get some penalties, at 25% more penalties, at 10% even more. The problem with that is that players start to get paranoid as their hp goes down, with your method they´d be more tense only during combat scenes, and I personally thought these are a bit harsh, partial actions only, right after the first 1/3? isn't it a bit too much? ...But anyway, how did it work for you? Too much bookeeping?
Has anyone seen Iron Heroes method? You get reserve points equal to your total HP, and you can trade on a 1:1 rate, but it takes 1 minute for each point, so, when you´re down, you can sit down an rest a while and get some hp back. It´s pretty simple, allows for some decent healing while also limiting the amount and the rate.
Know Remorse, I agree wholeheartedly. Copying 4E defeats the purpose of Paizo staying with 3.5. If I wanted to play a game like that I would go by WOTC's version. A fighter suddenly healing himself is not what D&D is or ever was, about. When they changed that and other stuff like that, I decided to drop out. Paizo takes the torch and does the same thing?!? That would be a really bad and idiotic move. The OP should be flogged for suggesting it.
QFT
FH pretty much covered my thoughts although I don't think I'd advocate flogging anyone.
What happens between two concenting adults and a man in a leather hood is hardly my business. Who are we to judge?
My question is: What the hell is wrong with healing potions, and curing wands? Give me a break! In the last part of AoW my wife DMed one of our players flaked, and our group went forward without a cleric and we did just fine (At least until my Lamia got vaporized but that was bad dice rolls). The Point being is if every character can heal, then the role of a cleric is diminished. The other classes don't need a healing ability because they have wands and potions that do the same freakin thing! Healing surges were one of the stupider ideas put forth in 4E (And that's saying alot!)
...The Point being is if every character can heal, then the role of a cleric is diminished. The other classes don't need a healing ability because they have wands and potions that do the same freakin thing! Healing surges were one of the stupider ideas put forth in 4E (And that's saying alot!)
I completely agree with you Blackdragon, if every class could produce an effective like a healing spell the classes that're based around healing will become less important, perhaps even obsolete.
This is why I think any self-healing mechanism has to be less effective than a healing spell. My approach means that you penalize yourself and you risk having the "healed" damage returned to you if you do too much. Magical healing is still much better with this system.I'd love to have perhaps a more polished self healing system than my own that does not replace the cleric/druid or even the Bard...but still makes it possible to go on without them (and in a setting or level range that has low amounts of wands and potions).
There was a question about action points before. They basically work in such a way that each level you have a certain amount of Action points. You can spend an action point to add a d6 to any d20 roll (skill check, attack roll, save). You can also spend 1 or more points to get special effects like another use of a 1/day ability or to auto-stabilize etc.
You only get that set amount of points per level. Once you level your action point pool resets and becomes larger at set intervals.
I think it's a great addition and it allows the players to "push" their characters in times of need. For further information about Action Points, their special rules, feats etc I'd really recommend the Eberron Campaign Setting Book. It's chock-full of cool things I've cannibalized for my own homebrew campaign (mmm...warforged! =D)
The Point being is if every character can heal, then the role of a cleric is diminished.
Oh, absolutely, but it was never meant to replace the healing abilities of a cleric, magical healing is sure to be a lot more powerful. The Self Healing stuffs we are talking about is just a little bit of "Wound Mending", or "Catching a breath after a battle". Just something to help so that if you get hit badly by accident (DM got a hell of a lucky roll) you´d still have a little to go on.
Really, consider the first fight of a party yet in the morning right after they woke up, the DM gets lucky and takes away 80% of the fighter´s HP. Now, they just slept, spells practically full (may have spent a little something on the battle), haven´t done anything important yet... and guess what, they can´t go on ´cause they don´t have a cleric or a healing potion. You might say "Oh, but what kind of party does´t have a cleric or a stock of healing potions.. they should have.. etc.."; well, maybe they did have potions and used up now, too long on the road (dungeon), or they´re somewhere where Healing Potions (and wands) are not sold at the next block´s market (you know, even in the all-magical Forgotten Realms it´s not everywhere they are common house items). A scene like that is not all that uncommon to happen, and takes away a lot of fun, either they rest again or the DM has to take it easy the rest of the day; but still, they are unmotivated now. And again, why can´t the group, with a little care, tend to the fighter´s wound a little? A character with a good heal skill would have the knowledge to clean it up, sow it, get some bandages, etc. And after that, a short 10 minutes rest and a good talk to raise the spirit (and thus some HP). Again, what is wrong with that?
We are not talking about fully healing the man in 6 seconds, but getting back that 20-30% in half-hour just to keep the mood to keep going.
This is why I think any self-healing mechanism has to be less effective than a healing spell. My approach means that you penalize yourself and you risk having the "healed" damage returned to you if you do too much. Magical healing is still much better with this system.
This Bandage system is interesting. I'll have to think on implementing something similar for a future d20 Wheel of Time game I'm planning on running.
I'd love to have perhaps a more polished self healing system than my own that does not replace the cleric/druid or even the Bard...but still makes it possible to go on without them (and in a setting or level range that has low amounts of wands and potions).
One thing I just thought of while reading this thread (that I'm also adding to my WoT game) is another use for action points.
I thought it might work to allow action points to mitigate damage from an attack. Basically, when the 2nd level party rogue gets hit for 10 points of damage, he can immediately spend an action point to mitigate 1d6 points of damage. Note, he can't invoke this later; it must be as the damage happens. Thus, it's not "healing" per se, but just an expression of luck. Now, this viewpoint is based in the concept of the Wheel of Time world, where fate and chance (around ta'veren, at least) plays a big part in things.
Example: Had you not been distracted and turned to look at the giggling child, you would have been dead in the sights of the assassin's arrow; by pure chance you turned at the right moment, and it was off-mark by 2 inches, becoming only a glancing blow.
The cleric has access to healing spells,but they do not comprise the majority of its spell list. I think that the cleric has been pigeonholed into the healing toolbox role and that is a somewhat limited view of its overall capabilities. There are so many other things a cleric could excel at, and i don't deny they are the most efficient healers by design. But i don't see some limited resurgence ability as stealing too much of the clerics thunder.
But on the other hand i don't like the new healing surge mechanic as it is being presented in 4th e. Geez designing games is hard. Hats off to the Paizo staff and anyone brave enough to try it.
I thought it might work to allow action points to mitigate damage from an attack. Basically, when the 2nd level party rogue gets hit for 10 points of damage, he can immediately spend an action point to mitigate 1d6 points of damage. Note, he can't invoke this later; it must be as the damage happens. Thus, it's not "healing" per se, but just an expression of luck.
Pretty good idea Owl, this sounds nice too. Though I don´t use action points, maybe I´d have something like once/day every 2 levels, or something else, doesn´t matter. But the idea is interesting. It´s the contrary of the "after battle" healing.
The cleric has access to healing spells,but they do not comprise the majority of its spell list. I think that the cleric has been pigeonholed into the healing toolbox role and that is a somewhat limited view of its overall capabilities. There are so many other things a cleric could excel at, and i don't deny they are the most efficient healers by design. But i don't see some limited resurgence ability as stealing too much of the clerics thunder.
Perfect.
Although Cleric is not one of my favorites, I can see how people have put him in a "healer" role too much, forgetting that a cleric could be a mighty party supporter, a good fighter and even some good damage-dealing caster. Giving other characters a small chance to care for themselves a little bit, takes away the responsibility of the cleric having to do nothing but keep an eye on the rest of the group waiting to heal someone and letting him do other stuff (and for that, letting the player actually cast a different spell than Cure X Wounds or Heal). And even so, the Cleric would be the main source for healing that requires Restoration or Remove Disease/Poison/Curse/Fear/etc... The fighter could mend his wounds a little, but he can´t recover from a Disease or poison as easily on his own; and there´s still the fearsome level/ability drains. So, even with all the small self-healing stuff, the cleric would still be an important figure of healing.
The new 4th ed introduced in D&D an idea for characters to heal themselves a bit without the need of a Cleric or potions/wands, etc.. This is a concept with witch I have toyed a while at my game table in different forms: Characters making Con tests to heal a little bit after battle, Fortitude saves, Heal skill checks, some magical energy that heals them once in a while, etc...
Anyway, I thought this improved my gaming a lot, it actually gave the character a lot more of a "battle-hard-hero-struggling-to-go-on" look; taking a time to catch a breath and tending to the fresh wounds after a strenuous battle; or just getting themselves motivated, inspired to go on again (and in that way a little HP back), or just a magical energy in the place that healed them once in a while; all that made the game flow much more briskly. They didn't have to stop the course of game only coz one of them got hit too badly, and since they went on for longer, it made the sorcerer plan a lot more on its spells.
So, personally, from my playtesting, I´d really like to see Paizo add something like that to their Pathfinder RPG, it would make me consider it a lot better. Second Winds, Heal checks, Con tests, Fort checks, Action Points, etc... whatever sounds better, that can be discussed. The point is that the ability for characters to heal up a bit by themselves should be in the game in some way... at least for me...
Monte Cooks Book of Experimental Might also uses a system similar to 4th but more attuned to 3.5. It's actually a 2 part system, making use of something called Grace points, which divide up your hit points into grace and actual health points. It then gives you the option durning a turn to take a break and recover your grace points and thereby heal.
I really like class interdependence. The fighter takes damage, the rogue has all the useful skills, the Wizard deals damage, and the cleric heals them all. If you dilute the abilities of one, then it isn't as fun a class for the player to play. I feel the same way about skills, what if you removed class skills mechanic and gave everyone the same amount of skill points as the rogue?