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I've never played a minstrel bard. I've played a lorekeeper and an orator. Generally, I pump perform (oratory) with ranks. He takes to the field as a marshal would, calling out speeches and chants that are imbued with his mystical energy. I think Unearthed Arcana actually has a warrior skald and a loremaster as bard variants. I didn't use the variants to make my characters, but the outcome was similar.
As an aside, I've noticed that some people really get stuck into limiting what it means to be of a particular class. I've enjoyed pushing the envelope on how far we can carry a class without having to make up a new one.
Another option I've enjoyed is multiclassing to meet my character type.
I do hope that Pathfinder RPG will be set up (and include) variants for the classes. Paizo did wonders with that in its Dragon days and I'd like to see the company continue with this theme.
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I've never played a minstrel bard. I've played a lorekeeper and an orator. Generally, I pump perform (oratory) with ranks. He takes to the field as a marshal would, calling out speeches and chants that are imbued with his mystical energy. I think Unearthed Arcana actually has a warrior skald and a loremaster as bard variants. I didn't use the variants to make my characters, but the outcome was similar.
As an aside, I've noticed that some people really get stuck into limiting what it means to be of a particular class. I've enjoyed pushing the envelope on how far we can carry a class without having to make up a new one.
Another option I've enjoyed is multiclassing to meet my character type.
I do hope that Pathfinder RPG will be set up (and include) variants for the classes. Paizo did wonders with that in its Dragon days and I'd like to see the company continue with this theme.
I know what you mean. The cleric & paladin classes are my two favorite classes and the two I play most frequently, but I've never played the stereotypical evangelizing priest or knight in shining armor.
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Heh. One of my favorite paladins was a duergar who allied with the dwarves of Citadel Felbarr and helped wage war on the orcs in the hills and the duergar from the underdark. He had a habit of rushing in blindly. Still alive when the campaign died.
My favorite cleric started out as my wife's ONLY character and I adopted her. A female elven cleric who took up ranger levels later on. Not a preacher by any means. Solid in her faith and dedicated to following the quest through all perils without flinching. Not much of a sense of humor though.
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Heh. One of my favorite paladins was a duergar who allied with the dwarves of Citadel Felbarr and helped wage war on the orcs in the hills and the duergar from the underdark. He had a habit of rushing in blindly. Still alive when the campaign died.
My favorite cleric started out as my wife's ONLY character and I adopted her. A female elven cleric who took up ranger levels later on. Not a preacher by any means. Solid in her faith and dedicated to following the quest through all perils without flinching. Not much of a sense of humor though.
My most recent paladin was a grim, guilt-ridden, angry person with amazing reserves of self control and who held his own life to be of trivial importance is his death achieved something worthwhile. I still can't believe he survived. There were a number of times where he waded into seemingly-unsurmountable odds and walked out again. He also had one of the most brutally-effective fighting styles of any character I've ever played, though, and I mean that from a roleplaying standpoint rather than a mechanical one. Rather than some sort of "high swordsmanship" he used tactics that would be more at home in the repretoire of a person trained in Krav Maga, Systema, Juijutsu or even just a veteran street fighter. He took cheap shots (groin kicks, eye gouges, crushed the windpipe of downed foes with his boot, etc.), used improvised weapons, and fought with his bare hands when he had to. He used a flail because of the tactical options it gave him. (In the alpha rules, he'd almost certainly have power attack, improved unarmed strike, razor sharp chair leg and two-weapon fighting) He was definitely lawful good, but when it came time to kill someone, by golly, he killed them dead. He often used his smites are part of a coup de grace.
My most recent cleric had a skill set more akin to that of a spy than an evangelist. As a character in a gestalt game, he had access to a second class's worth of abilities at each level, so I gave him levels of rogue and swordsage to up his social and stealth abilities. Unlike the guy above, he was laid-back and friendly, but unless you saw him in the actual act of spellcasting, you'd never guess the guy in a gray overcoat with golden runes around the (black) cuffs and toting a rifle over his shoulder was a cleric. He was devoted to a protector celestial lord of some power, and did a lot of small, covert acts of goodness. Much more cautious and FAR less angst-ridden than the paladin, he was a refreshing change of pace after playing such a tormented character.
I know I won't make me friends here, but I say screw the bard and the Paladin and replace them with an improved Multiclass System.
A bard is just a rogue multiclassing in any one spellcasting class.
And the Paladin is just a Fighter/cleric.
Make all those classes customizable enough to rebuild those classes easly via multiclassing and it's perfect.
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I know I won't make me friends here, but I say screw the bard and the Paladin and replace them with an improved Multiclass System.
A bard is just a rogue multiclassing in any one spellcasting class.
And the Paladin is just a Fighter/cleric.
No, it's not. And, for that matter, a ranger is not a fighter/druid. Just because there are certain thematic similarities does not make it so. Fighters are pure warriors. Clerics are representatives of one specific deity, good or evil. Paladins are walking pillars of righteousness. Druids are the priests of the natural world. Rangers are trackers and bounty hunters. Bards are keepers of lore and inspiration. Rogues are scouts, thieves, and investigators. If you're denied access to ranger, paladin, and bard, you can, in a pinch, SIMULATE them with the mixes you propose, but it's not the same. You can cut the bard, ranger, and paladin from your home game if you want to, but I get annoyed when you try to force that on me.
I'm a fan of keeping classes as distinct as possible, and think the alpha release 1, and the barbarian spoilers from alpha 2 are a great example of this. Having a points-based system for rage, with different powers costing different amounts of points gives the barbarian a unique 'feel' while playing it. Similarly, the rogue's ability to pick from a list of powers unique to the rogue, with some having prerequisites mirrors feat progression, but keeps the majority of the rogue's powers in the hands of the rogue class.
Along similar lines, I'd love to see a perform-based powers system for bards. Elsewhere, it's been stated that perform is an almost-completely useless skill for other classes, other than its role-playing value. 3.x pretty much guaranteed that bards would keep perform maxed in order to gain new bard powers at the level which they became available, but didn't really give a compelling reason for a bard to branch out into multiple sub-skills of perform.
My friend (the other DM of our gaming group) and I had a long discussion about revamping the bard class recently. We both agreed that the bard class needs a better definition of 'scope' as it were. (Sorry, we're both IT developer geeks) Bards have been called 'jacks of all trades, masters of none', but truly, they aren't even _good_ at many things other than combat support and social encounters.
The SRD bard is obviously meant to fulfill a 'support' role in the party, but does so only adequately. The Inspire <X> bardic music powers are a good start, and the bard's spell list supports them well, but it is certainly possible to play a buffing-oriented transmuter or cleric who provides much more combat support to the rest of the party in terms of sheer bonus number potential. In fact, it could be argued that the cleric is the true 'support' class of D&D when healing is grouped under 'support'.
The other role where the current bard excels is as the party face. No other SRD class save the rogue has class-skill access to all three of the social skills (diplomacy, bluff, sense motive) and the skill points to keep all at effective levels. And rare is the rogue with enough charisma to match a bard. Combined with available enchantments and the fascinate/suggestion bardic music abilities, there's no one who can swing a non-combat encounter in a party's favor like the bard from a game-mechanics perspective.
Both of us are huge fans of the beguiler class from the PHB2 from a flavor/role standpoint. However, our experience playing/running for a beguiler fell far short of expectations. By throwing all of its eggs in one basket spell-wise (illusion + enchantment...will save magic), the beguiler ended up being almost completely useless in any encounter featuring opponents unaffected by illusions or enchantments. Considering the campaign in question was the Savage Tide, the character ended up being a poor excuse for a rogue in almost half of the encounters in the first 2 adventures (undead, enchantment-immune savage template, etc).
The same problem would exist with a bard class designed with enchantment/mind affecting abilities as its focus. Hence, the party face/charm bard would fall short anywhere except social encounters. Again, this relegates the bard shining in a a certain subset of adventure types, namely socially-driven campaigns. In my experience with those, however, a given player's ability to role-play often outweighs the ranks in the diplomacy skill. A 10-charisma wizard played by a well-spoken and intelligent player will often have more of an impact on a role-playing encounter than the 18-charisma bard played by an introvert who grabs a die and says 'Diplomacy check'. Such is the nature of mimicking real world social interaction in an imaginary environment.
Taking all this into account, we sought to redefine the bard as the ultimate social animal and group buffing class. This would ensure that the bard would have its moments to shine in non-combat encounters, but still pull its own weight when swords (or lutes) are drawn. The actual execution of this would be a two-part task. First, to revamp bardic music to a deeper and more unique system which would reward high perform-check rolls rather than just ranks in the skill (fulfilling a requirement of making the class unique and compelling to play mechanically). Second, to revise the bard's spell list, or replace its spell-casting with more bardic music powers which fit the redefined class's role.
Our conversation never went beyond the mental masturbation stage, and we didn't get into specific powers or design, but here are some of the ideas we had based on the current state of the alpha rules:
-Increase bardic music uses per day at lower levels. In keeping with the idea of at-will abilities for specialist wizards and cleric turning-based healing, the bard's music should not limit him to a 15-minute adventuring day. Is the +1 damage from Inspire Courage so much better than Bless that it, and a few 0 level spells per day are a fair trade-off in comparison to a 1st level cleric?
-Replace the standard action requirement with a move action to continue certain bardic music abilities with a move action.
-Scale the effects of bardic music based on a target DC for a perform check similar to the new grapple rules. At +N over the target DC the effect is increased, or harder to resist (higher save DC for the target), or affects a greater area or number of targets, etc. The target DC should remain low enough that a bard built with the standard array should rarely 'fail' the check entirely.
-Allow for re-rolls on the perform check to increase the effect if the original result was not to the bard's liking, but with the danger of a failed check ending the ability early.
For example, consider the following redefinition of bardic music and the Inspire Courage and Fascinate abilities:
Bardic Performance
Beginning at first level, a bard can use his Perform skill to produce magical effects on those around him (usually including himself, if desired). These abilities fall under the category of bardic performance, and represent the bard reciting poetry, chanting, singing lyrical songs, singing melodies, whistling, playing an instrument, or dancing to produce the effect. Each ability requires a minimum bard level and a Perform check to activate.
A bard begins play with a number of daily uses of Bardic Music equal to two, plus his charisma modifier (if positive). For every class level gained, the bard gains an additional two uses of bardic music per day. Higher level bardic music abilities may require more than one use of the ability to activate.
Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action which does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Some bardic music abilities are considered ongoing performances, which means the bard may devote a move-equivalent each turn, declared at the beginning of his turn, to maintain an ongoing effect. While performing, the bard may not cast spells that require verbal and/or somatic components, nor activate items by spell-trigger, spell-completion, nor spells requiring a command word.
Just as for casting a spell with a verbal component, a deaf bard has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use bardic music. If he fails, the attempt still counts against his daily limit.
Any subsequent use of bardic performance after a given performance ends requires another standard action to activate and consumes more uses per day equal to the cost of the performance being activated.
Level 1 Bardic Performance: Inspire Courage (Su) (DC 10)
By spending one use of bardic performance, a bard can begin a performance designed to inspire courage in his allies (including himself), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. This ability affects the bard, and all allies within 30 feet who are able to hear or view the bard's performance. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. For every 8 points by which the check exceeds the target DC, the bonus increases by 1 (to a maximum of +5). A bard may continue this performance on subsequent turns (see above). He may choose to use a standard action to re-roll the Perform check each round as desired, altering the bonus provided based on the new check's result. However, the bard must abide by the result of the new Perform check, even if it is lower. The performance and bonuses provided end immediately when the bard fails a Perform check, or chooses not to continue the performance.
Level 2 Bardic Performance: Fascinate (Sp) (DC 13)
By spending one use of bardic performance, a bard can begin a performance designed to fascinate one or more creatures within 90 feet, and able to perceive the performance. With a successful Perform check, the bard causes the targets to make a Will save against a DC equal to the result of the Perform check, or remain fascinated (as the condition) with the bard's performance until the performance ends, or until the condition is broken (see definition). The total HD of creatures fascinated must be less than or equal to the bard's class level. For every 5 points by which the check succeeds, the bard may affect an additional four HD of creatures. The bard may choose as many eligible targets as are in range before the Perform check is made. Creatures targeted with the fewest HD are affected first. Among creatures with equal HD, those who are closest to the bard are affected first. Hit Dice that are not sufficient to affect a creature are wasted. A creature succeeding in its will save against this ability is to any further Fascinate attempts by that bard for 24 hours. Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability.
I know I won't make me friends here, but I say screw the bard and the Paladin and replace them with an improved Multiclass System.
A bard is just a rogue multiclassing in any one spellcasting class.
And the Paladin is just a Fighter/cleric.Make all those classes customizable enough to rebuild those classes easly via multiclassing and it's perfect.
I would rather see those classes easily rebuilt using options within the main four classes of Fighter, Wizard, Rogue and Cleric than having to bring in multiclassing. But then i think it is obvious from other threads that i have a problem with viewing multiclassing as required for most concepts. Either have those concepts possible in the core classes or presented as easily accessed 5-level prestige classes.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
Bardic Music really, really wants to *not* give a rnadom bonus. It wants to be the same bonus everytime, so players know what it means when the bard says "I inspire" -- and we want easily resolved actions anyway. The math on that proposal is ugly.
I have no problem with the support-bard -- I think it's a fun character to play and it's a style that suits me well. It's not quite what I'm looking for from the bard conceptually.
The problem is that a D&D jack fo all trades doesn't work the ay a fictional one does. Fictional dabblers are always jumping into the middle of whaever's going on, getting themselves in over thier head. They have a tendency to be protagonists and have the action revolve around them. But in D&D, if your abilities are super-powerful, you're pretty much relegated to a support role. Offensive magic, for instance, is only useful if you concentrate most of your character resources on it, while defensive and utility magic are always good.
I like to think of the bard as the quintessential hero -- not a trained soldier, but proficient in a sword, able to sneak around, proficient with mnor magic. An inspiring, charismatic leader who more specialized types rally around
If we want to simulate the plucky young hero/ daring rogue/ jack of all trades dynamic, we'd need abilities to encourage the bard to jump into the thick of things. For instance, inspire courage shouldn't be some aura he projects by standing around singing -- it should be an ability that activates automatically when he melees.