Mechanics of Religion

[LilithsThrall]

Onion 316 wrote:

Unfortunately, as history has proven over and over again, every group of people (ethnic, national, religious or otherwise) has been both an oppressor and a victim. I certainly don't pretend that this reality doesn't exist.

Not true. Though there are a large number of people who try to excuse away the problems of their own group by saying "well, everyone does it". Like the current pope who blaimed child pederasty in the church on the world outside the church.

Onion 316 wrote:

I am not asking anyone to submit to my own religious beliefs (that would actually be contrary to those very beliefs). I AM asking that the Pathfinder RPG take a step back from wording that DOES require a religious world-view in its mechanics for divine magic.

This, I agree with. DnD needs a better grasp of religion. It currently looks like it was written by a parochial grade schooler.

Monotheism is just one of the many areas where it falls apart.

[Loose Bones]

LilithsThrall wrote:

DnD needs a better grasp of religion. It currently looks like it was written by a parochial grade schooler.

Monotheism is just one of the many areas where it falls apart.

I've just been looking at Deities and Demigods, which says a bit more about domains and portfolios in pantheon design, but reads mainly as a vehicle for making gods opponents in epic combat encounters (not very interesting, IMHO).

It does make it clear that gods in the game are not omniscient and omnipotent, giving non-OGL rules for their limits. Maybe equivalent would be useful in Pathfinder, if it's going to go epic levels.

It's take on monotheism is okay, but does mean cutting back on domains. I'd say if people want one omnipotent god granting contradictory domains, remember the Old Testament presents Satan more as a lieutenant to God, under His control but employed to challenge the faithful.

The book also has a good take on animism, which really allows for lots of gods (e.g. one per forest glade), and therefore non-campaign-breaking encounters with them. It would be good leave scope for developing this further.

I'd like to mix these up in a campaign. Druids can draw power from gods in the material plane (as animists or pantheists), whilst the monotheist clerics honour the only true god from their point of view. Like the Eberron Church of the Silver Flame, their faith is the only one that matters to their local culture. They ultimately find their god on an outer plane, effectively keeping her fingers in her ears to maintain she is the unique supreme power over all that really matters.

[DudeMonkey]

Loose Bones wrote:

I've just been looking at Deities and Demigods, which says a bit more about domains and portfolios in pantheon design, but reads mainly as a vehicle for making gods opponents in epic combat encounters (not very interesting, IMHO).

Interestingly, I just finished a campaign with a Divine Rank 0 monster vs 21st level characters (I used the stat block for Kyuss in Age of Worms). It was a fun, exciting encounter that really stretched both the players and their characters. In the end, they were able to defeat the demigod through a combination of good tactics and tenacity.

This isn't the kind of thing that I'm going to whip out in every campaign, but for this one it was very effective.

[Chris Mortika]

Whether your nomenclature is:

• one remote god, good and evil angels with porfolios

or

• good and evil gods with portfolios,

...we haven't touched on the idea of one active, Yahwistic god. Even if you allow for an Adversary, I'm not sure that would work in D&D without a drastic overhaul of the way clerics work.

First, because there'd only be one good-aligned church. If such a god's as active and communicative as most D&D gods are (through divination spells, oracles, and the like) there wouldn't be well-meaning heresies, there wouldn't be schisms. If the Pope and Martin Luther have a question, they summon an angel and get a ruling.

Second, because an all-powrful god always wins. Someone mentioned above that Aaron's stick-to-snake serpents ate all of Pharaoh's magicians' serpents. With the rules as written, that would needs be the case.

The only way I can see things working is that each divine spell would require some sort of a faith roll. It might be a skill roll or a Will save, but --given evidence from the Bible, that powerful capable people aren't all that better at following God's will and acting as the conduit for miracles-- I'd probably make it a straight Wisdom check.

That way, something like, say, exorcising a demon doesn't pits the monotheistic D&D god's strength against the possessing demon's strength --the god's omnipotent-- but the exorcism does depend on the faith of the cleric making the attempt.

So, if anybody wants to write the OGL Age of the Apostles RPG, we've got a mechanic here.

[hogarth]

Chris Mortika wrote:

Second, because an all-powrful god always wins. Someone mentioned above that Aaron's stick-to-snake serpents ate all of Pharaoh's magicians' serpents. With the rules as written, that would needs be the case.

I don't see that this needs to be the case at all. It looks like you're implying that a benevolent deity wouldn't allow bad things (e.g. evil magic) to happen. The problem of evil has been studied at length; there are plenty of justifications to choose from.

[Chris Mortika]

hogarth wrote:

I don't see that this needs to be the case at all. It looks like you're implying that a benevolent deity wouldn't allow bad things (e.g. evil magic) to happen. The problem of evil has been studied at length; there are plenty of justifications to choose from.

In the real world, you bet there are, Hogarth. But I wasn't being clear.

In the campaign background I was exploring, I was imagining that when a cleric was casting spells, the all-powerful, benevolent deity wasn't just testing people / allowing free choice / seeing what happens. It was willfully manifesting its power. And the only way I could imagine its will being thwarted was through the failure of the intercessor (in this case, the cleric).

Put another way, if the cleric were thoroughly capable of invoking the power of the god, for example in a turning attempt, there wouldn't have to be a resisted roll. No evil undead could be powerful enough to "win" a contest against the almighty.

I remember an old Dr. Strange comic where he uses the power of Order and Chaos against their servant. "No creature, real or imagined, has power against its creator."

I imagine it'd be possible to build a campaign background where a single still-active god is not particularly all-good (or, even better, where none of creation is all good, and the god has trouble recognizing shades of gray...) or all-powerful.

Thanks for posting your thoughts.