According to the SRD of 3.5, "Unlike arcane spells, divine spells draw power from a divine source. Clerics gain spell power from deities or from divine forces."
This is further explained in the Alpha 1 Release, "Each deity has a number of spheres of influence, ideals and concepts that they represent and champion. Their followers can draw upon these domains for additional powers and abilities. Each cleric chooses two of the
domains granted by their deity upon taking their first level."
I have a radical question: Why is it mechanically necessary to explain divine magic in terms of a polytheistic world view?
I ask this because of the roots of our modern concept of Fantasy. Both Beowulf and La Mort de Arthur were written from a Christian perspective. C.S. Lewis allowed his own Christianity to heavily influence the Narnia chronicals. J.R.R. Tolkien was a devout Catholic and, to a less obvious degree, allowed his beliefs to shape his story telling (if you don't believe me, a friend of mine got his Masters of Theology by showing how much of the Old Testament shows up in Tolkien).
Given these roots, shouldn't there be a mechanical option for those who wish to honor these roots, or to reflect them in their games?
I realize that conceptually it is difficult to explain how God, given that He is good, would ever grant the Evil Domain to an evil cleric and allow this guy to go around using divine energies, power, etc. disobeying His commandments. Thus, there is the apparant need for divine powers that support such activities.
However, one of the most fundamental concepts of Christianity holds that the created world was called "very good" by God. Thus, when it comes to whether something in creation is good or evil, it doesn't matter WHAT something is, but rather how it is USED. Thus, no matter how difficult it may seem, it is possible to use the Evil Domain for good.
Keeping this concept in mind, isn't it possible to understand the ability to use divine magic as a gift from God to be used and developed in the same manner as, say, musical ability? The potential is there, but it still needs to be harnessed, and trained in order to take full advantage. This way, each character who has the ability to cast divine magic is completely free to use the gift in the manner in which she chooses (reflecting another Christian concept, free will).
Thus, it is theoretically possible for someone to be given the Evil Domain and through free will use it to obey God's commands.
So, in the name of universality and in honor of folks like Tolkien and Lewis, would it be possible for the Pathfinder guys to do a little editing and open the door to this kind of mechanic?
Well, one simple reason for this.
Monotheism grows out of panthiesm. The jewish faith was polythistic until relatively recently, when Yahweh worship came to dominate it. Christianity is in many forms, still a polytheistic religion.
Humans are by nature polytheists.
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According to the SRD of 3.5, "Unlike arcane spells, divine spells draw power from a divine source. Clerics gain spell power from deities or from divine forces."
This is further explained in the Alpha 1 Release, "Each deity has a number of spheres of influence, ideals and concepts that they represent and champion. Their followers can draw upon these domains for additional powers and abilities. Each cleric chooses two of the
domains granted by their deity upon taking their first level."I have a radical question: Why is it mechanically necessary to explain divine magic in terms of a polytheistic world view?
I ask this because of the roots of our modern concept of Fantasy. Both Beowulf and La Mort de Arthur were written from a Christian perspective. C.S. Lewis allowed his own Christianity to heavily influence the Narnia chronicals. J.R.R. Tolkien was a devout Catholic and, to a less obvious degree, allowed his beliefs to shape his story telling (if you don't believe me, a friend of mine got his Masters of Theology by showing how much of the Old Testament shows up in Tolkien).
Given these roots, shouldn't there be a mechanical option for those who wish to honor these roots, or to reflect them in their games?
I realize that conceptually it is difficult to explain how God, given that He is good, would ever grant the Evil Domain to an evil cleric and allow this guy to go around using divine energies, power, etc. disobeying His commandments. Thus, there is the apparant need for divine powers that support such activities.
However, one of the most fundamental concepts of Christianity holds that the created world was called "very good" by God. Thus, when it comes to whether something in creation is good or evil, it doesn't matter WHAT something is, but rather how it is USED. Thus, no matter how difficult it may seem, it is possible to use the Evil Domain for good.
Keeping this concept in mind, isn't it possible to understand the ability to use divine magic as a gift from God to be used and developed...
That's a kettle of fish that I would not want in my products.
Better you tailor your games yourself than make other peole have to remove this work.
I wouldn't give God every domain. I'd give him only a few. Like Good, Law, Protection, ect. He's the God of everything, yes but there's only a few things that fit him enough to actually be domains.
In the PHB, it says you don't have to be dedicated to a deity as a cleric. It gives the option of being dedicated to "a cause or source of divine power". In a monotheistic world, this could reflect worshippers of "Asmodeus" (or whatever you want to call him in your world). I would only allow followers of "Jehovah" (or whatever name you want to use) to cast from certain domains that reflected the intentions of the god. If you expect the good creator of the universe to grant spells that desecrate an area or create horrible undead abominations, then it doesn't seem like you are really getting the feel you want- but that's my opinion. There are rules about monotheism in the 3.0 book Deities and Demigods.
If you think about it, the FR presented a monotheistic world view. The only deity with any real power was Ao; he could give or strip power from any member of any pantheon at will. In fact, the way they are always elevated in power, usually from the mortal races, has made me think of the majority of FR deities as ascended saints, rather than gods.
A monotheistic setting would require the single deity to be a force of great neutrality, or to take a step back and not interfere (thereby severely limiting, or even eliminating, divine magic). In a fantasy roleplaying game, it's simply easier and more conducive to play, in my opinion, to have a number of deities, each with their own agendas and spheres of influence, allowing the races to ally themselves with divine powers possessing a similar mindset.
If you want a Christian God (as described in the testaments and in Church) in your campaign, then you're opening the door for all that entails:
1. No other gods. Remove divine ranks from all of them, so that they're the equivalent of demon lords. Clerics of anyone else are merely deluded Commoners or Experts or Aristocrats, not Clerics.
2. Great Wheel is ended. There are only 3-4 planes: Earth, Heaven, Hell; maybe purgatory.
3. "Law" and "Chaos" as an alignment axis are abolished.
4. Wizards, sorcerers, and druids have no spells or other supernatural or spell-like abilities, because miracles are purportedly the sole province of God. If your campaign is pre-Christ and you allow them some spells (a la some parts of the Old Testament), then clerics of God have unbeatable SR against the powers of infidels.
5. You can no longer go into dungeons and kill things and take their treasure in order to get better equipment. Instead, God empowers your stuff at will and de-powers it similarly.
6. For a Narnia-like vibe, abolish XP. 10-year-olds instantly become 20th level Paladins if God wants them to. Trained fighters fall before them easily; EL as a concept is meaningless.
7. Instead of XP, you'd need some sort of "piety points" to track your saintliness in the service of God. These would increase as you make more and more difficult Will saves to avoid earthly temptation.
Maybe that would be an enjoyable game for some, but I'd hate to see it become core rules (a "Left Behind" RPG might be a better venue, if that's what you're after).
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Obviously real-world religions, from Christianity to ancient mythology to Buddhism have had an undeniable impact on literature and culture throughout human history. It is nearly inevitable that a religion or faith which occupies a person or a society would have an influence on all types of things. To say that Lord of the Rings is on par with Narnia in terms of religious allegory is pushing it a little far, in my opinion. Is it that you're offended by the idea of pretending that, in a fantasy world, there is a pantheon of gods as there was in Greek or Norse mythology? I am a very devout Christian, but have never felt the need to incorporate my beliefs into the game and can't imagine a D&D that didn't include the polytheistic aspect. I just wouldn't' run a game with less open-minded people in a church social group.
Actually, some of those points are wrong - if you want a medieval Christian setting. Hermetic magic was practiced by Christian priests. St. Francis of Assissi is close enough to being a Druid to make a go of it.
Good point. But by citing only Christian users of spells, you've bolstered the main gist of #4, rather than refuting it -- you'd be able to have those classes, but not if the character worships any other god.
Killing others and taking their stuff is a strong tradition in medieval Christianity. Actually, it's safer -not- to have a Christian faith in DnD, because if you made it accurate, it'd upset a lot of Christians.
Some of them are perpetually upset enough as is; I'd prefer to let that one lie.
The only difference in Monotheism in my POV is the reduction of available deities to worship (usually one ;)?)
But you have several options to use:
1) You could use Satan/Shaitan/Lucifer or whatever as Gods cosmic counterpart, granting those nasty domains as Evil, Chaos, and what not.
2) Instead of worshipping God, you could use Saints or Archangels (or Heretics and Greater Demons respectivly) as "deities" (in rule terms) and assign domains to them.
This way you still got different clerics, but they are all part of the (more or less) same church.
I wouldn't say a christian setting would eliminate wizards, druids and the like.
Just keep in mind, that the Inquisition was not only "used" to hunt down heretics (Clerics of Satan) but also vile Sorcerers and Witches (with the false evidence that they are in bond with Satan)
The thing about the Christian/Cathlic church wasn't their superior God but their huge worldly Power with the roman (and the later) empires.
Through this power they just wiped out all other faiths (like the poor druids) in their range of influence.
I think it might really be fun to play a fantasy(!) campaign, based on our world and add true magic and the like.
Arcane Spellcasters and non-catholic diviners must hide or keep their gifts secret while the allseeing Holy Roman Church is dictating everymans daylife. Confiscating and banning the knowledge, that was discovered by wizards and druids a long time ago.
Making the people uneducated, superstitious and dependend of them.
This might sound black painted, but if you be honest, it was really similar to this.
The thing about the Christian/Cathlic church wasn't their superior God but their huge worldly Power with the roman (and the later) empires. Through this power they just wiped out all other faiths (like the poor druids) in their range of influence.
I've used campaign worlds like that, and they were a lot of fun, in a "Golden Compass" sort of way... but you're pre-supposing that the "One True God" in that setting is not all-wise, all-benevolent, and all-powerful. In short, the people practice monotheism, but the setting itself does not assume that there actually is a single omnipotent God in charge of the entire game world and everything in it -- and it seemed like the OP wanted the latter. Narnia, rather than Golden Compass, if you will.
Yeah sure, but were's this to be any interesting -
IF you don't put any evil influence into.
If there is one omnipotent God ONLY, he is either
1) Neutral and propably not granting divine magic but let them research and develop this on their own.
2) Good and then it's really a hard time to make anything interesting, since without the presence/influence of a greater Evil, there's not much to do, right?
3) Evil. Well that one might be interesting but end's in something like Ravenloft and Darksun and Midnight all-in-one.
Know what I mean?
I once ran a homebrew with only one god (called Athos). The church was VERY loosely based on the Catholic church with different church orders having access to different domains (typically two).
A cleric could also choose a patron saint, taking the saint's domain instead of one from the character's order.
Players could also choose to be hermit priest, picking any two domains. These priest were not part of the church and could be considered heretics.
Evil clerics gained power from devil worship (I actually combinded demons and devils into one group).
Yeah sure, but... Know what I mean?
Draco, I'm with you, but I think they'd argue that the omni benevolent One True God allows free will, which in turn allows many people to be deluded and evil, which in turn means that God needs soldiers (ones that He can give all kinds of invincible buffs to) so they can oppose those benighted demon-worshipping slaves of darkness (you know, secular humanists and people like that). ;-)
The question really is, do you want a monotheistic model that will work in D&D, or do you want a Christian/Narnia model that D&D is not really modelled to support.
I believe there actually is a 3e campaign setting based on Christianity. I'm wanting to say it's called Babylon, but I never went looking for it. Check out Christian bookstores like Omega Bookstore and you should be able to find it. Thanks, OGL!
Several companies have published rpgs based on New and Old Testament settings. Most have bombed terribly, even with players who are christian. THat to me says polytheist settings and systems are the preference. If you want such a setting try one of those or create your own. The core rule book and setting need broad appeal which means not taking a monotheist or duotheist approach to either.
That said, our own world is heavily polytheist. Why should a fantasy setting be any different?
As to Tolkien, his world of Arda is not a monotheistic one. The "overgod" (Iluvatar) is a distant being. The deities that actually do anything are the Valar and number 14 (15 if you count Melkor) and their servants the Maiar.
Which brings me to another thing, why leave out RE Howard when mentioning the founders of mondern fantasy? The Conan stories were publishing 5 years before the Hobbit. Mind you, most of the deities in the Conan stories that were not outright malevolent were often very indifferent.
Personally, I like a polytheist world since I find a monotheist and duotheist world and world view monumentally tedious.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
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Uh, guys, rather than lobbying this radical change to Pathfinder, why not just go pick up Testament and the Medieval Player's Guide by Green Ronin? They can probably be had pretty cheap these days and speaking as one who owns both books, they're excellent. There's also Relics & Rituals: Excalibur which gets pretty close to monotheism. (And I like that they call the "prime evil" simply "The Adversary")
Hey Onion,
I'm actually working on a monotheistic campaign setting right now that actually incorporates some of your suggestions. While I enjoy playing in the traditional D&D setting, as a Christian who actually has a bachelors degree in Bible Science (yes, and I enjoy D&D and play in a group with 5+ Christians who also mostly have Bible degrees), I tend to want to explore a fantasy setting that's based on the Christian world view and since I have yet to find a setting that actually does it justice and seems like it would be fun to play, I decided to work on my own. I did run a monotheistic game with my friends a couple years ago with great success that is still talked about today, however it was very specialized (based in a desert continent and the PCs faced mostly undead) and I wanted to make something more broad and capable of supporting multiple parties and varying adventures.
Currently the way I have it set up is that God, who in this setting is known as Allfather (Have not come up with a proper name yet), is obviously the only supreme, true deity in the world. However, among His people there are various Creeds which have differing understandings of Him. Like our own modern denominations in Protestantism, monetarily speaking, some are "worth" more than others. The Harmonians are strict and focused on the letter of the law (lawful good). They are often legalists. Their qualities include the care of the poor and sick and their intense study and knowledge of the holy documents, however their legalistic mindset often steps in the way which causes them to lose sight of the larger picture. There are also the Freedans who see strict adherence to the law as pure legalism which detracts from the freedom that Allfather has bestowed upon the races of the world. They see the law simply as guidelines to behavior, rather than a literal "you must do this or you are being unfaithful." Characters in the Freedan Creed are Chaotic Good and are able to choose the Paladin of Freedom alternate class found in Unearthed Arcana.
There are other Creeds I am working on, mostly based on real world denominations, even including such groups as the Amish which translates to a Creed that lives in the wilderness, separating themselves from civilization and living entirely off the land. To be a player character in this particular Creed would allow you to visit cities and towns, however you could never stay there long term. Being a resident of Lancaster County, PA, I can tell you that even traditional Amish have no qualms riding in cars, trucks, or even heavy machinery, so long as they themselves do not operate them. They can be quite the legalists themselves, although I think I would leave this aspect to the Harmonians since technology is very low in fantasy settings.
As far as domains go, I am restricting Evil, Destruction, and Death from Clerics of Allfather, however every other domain is available so long as your particular Creed lays hold to it. In other words, Clerics of the Freedan Creed cannot take Law as a domain, for example.
There are other so-called gods and goddesses that are worshiped in the world, however they are in reality fallen angels that present themselves as gods. The reason why they fell was because they sought to deify themselves, jealous of the worship that Allfather declared was reserved for Him only. Allfather permits them to retain their abilities and powers, capable of granting them to mortals, however they will be ultimately accountable for their use of them at the Great Culmination (end of time). This means that these fallen angels are anything but good, or even neutral for that matter, though I haven’t decided yet.
So how do you as the DM work this campaign with an all-powerful, all-knowing divine force capable of doing whatever He wills?
Well, again, I am a Christian and so I believe that there is an omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-benevolent God in this real world of ours. Some pretty awful things happen to even people we consider good, moral individuals even in this world with an all powerful and all good God. It is what has been called the problem of evil, an apparent contradiction which appears when God who is understood to be all-powerful, does not obliterate evil in the world. I’m not going to get into theology on here, but it really comes down to God’s sovereignty – that He is ultimately in control of all things and has even ordained certain things to take place in order to accomplish His will which is always good. An example would be Joseph in the Old T. whose brothers sold him into slavery. The Old Testament specifically states that this occurred in order to save many lives. It was an evil act which the brothers are accountable for which they fully chose to do, however it was ordained by God to occur according to His will, for a ultimately good purpose. In other words there is no contradiction when it is understood that God has a morally sufficient reason for the evil that exists in the world. That hardly does it justice, but at least gives you an idea, and I'm not going to debate on here with anyone about it.
There is another way of doing this that doesn’t require a theology degree, and that is to essentially play in a type of silent years period. After the Old Testament canon was essentially closed, there were 400 years known as the silent years before the coming of Christ. They were called such because no new revelation was coming from God---He wasn’t directly interacting with His people or revealing any new prophecy. This would be a good time for an RPG setting where Clerics are still receiving their spells from God, however He is not directly interacting with the world.
I'm still working on it and there are many things to iron out, but since I found your thread I thought I'd post my ideas to see if that would help you out at all. Granted I understand this is in the context of Pathfinder, I know I will not be using the Pathfinder pantheon when I run the modules, and if you are just using the Pathfinder RPG ruleset, you can easily adapt it to a monotheistic setting like mine.
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Actually, it's safer -not- to have a Christian faith in DnD, because if you made it accurate, it'd upset a lot of Christians.
Well, that last bit really got me LOLing.
Look, if you tried to fit literal Christian GOD into D&D, it wouldn't work. It's like putting a country called Russia into Khorvare. It's stupid. Instead, you make up a country called Karrnath, thats big, cold, and full of gloomy people.
I would certainly find a Church of Om situation far more likely and entertaining, in which a god makes his beleivers think that he's the ONLY god, and the all rest are evil Djinns. They'd certainly be a popular bunch, wouldnt they?
If you want to put a omnipotent, benevolent deity into your game, despite the logistical problems, go ahead. you can make a campaign where your players go on a bloody rampage through a polytheistic fantasy world, "converting" the heathens through...um, kindness and argument. Yep, no swords at all.
But it sounds like a can of worms that should not be opened, and it's not going to be in pathfinder. Honestly, the shining example of Pathfinder (based on it's Perfect Little Town, Sandpoint) seems decidedly un-christian. I mean, they tolerate fortune-telling gypsies, a homosexual couple, a god of Banking (damn, that's really, really funny), and a Planned Parenthood.
Is it that you're offended by the idea of pretending that, in a fantasy world, there is a pantheon of gods as there was in Greek or Norse mythology?
Absolutely not, especially if your setting is actively attempting to to be analogous to Ancient Greece or medieval Scandinavia (but please note, the people who they went viking against were primarily Christian).
Let me turn the question around, are you offended by the idea of pretending , in a fantasy world, there is only one God as there was in most of Europe from the 4th century on?
I am simply asking that the core rules reflect this possibility. I am not asking that they change the system in a radical way. All it requires is that rewriting of a phrase so that the system doesn't REQUIRE a polytheistic world view.
I am a very devout Christian, but have never felt the need to incorporate my beliefs into the game and can't imagine a D&D that didn't include the polytheistic aspect.
How sad. For all of you who struggle with this, let me try to sketch out how a Christian world view might look like in a D&D world:
1) God created everything. This includes all of the varioius planes of existence. He called them all good.
2) Satan and his angels rebelled through pride. Yes, this means that God created the devil and allows him to exist and work in the world. Why? To coerce His own creation into following Him limits our freedom, does not reflect a loving God, nor does it allow us to exist in His image and likeness.
3) Humanity rebelled against God. This free choice has brought sin, evil, suffering, and death into the world. God is not responsible for evil — we are. Death is a consequence of our separation from God, just as a burn is a consequence of touching a hot burner.
4) There are plenty of things to fight in the fallen world. The devil and his minions are constantly warring against humanity. In the antidiluvian world, the Nephalim bred with humanity to produce all manner of unnatural creature. Why can't a fantasy world reflect a reality where God chose not to wipe them out with a flood? Why can't these beings be responsible for occupying and shaping all the various planes of existence?
5) Since God created everything, ALL domains are available to Clerics. For the purposes of your campaign, you will want a means of controlling how a Cleric receives her domains. See my first post to begin to understand that the Evil Domain, the Chaos Domain, etc. can all be gifts from God and used to do His will. Grant it, using the Evil Domain for good would be difficult, almost a handicap. However, this reflects, it its own way, that God creates each of us with our own flaws and weaknesses. In doing His will, these can become our strengths.
I am asking that this possibility be more accessible for the public at large by making the core rules more universal and allowing for the POSSIBILITY of a monotheistic reality and not REQUIRE polytheism. It wouldn't take much, just a small edit in the explaination of the Domains.
Hey Onion,
I'm actually working on a monotheistic campaign setting right now that actually incorporates some of your suggestions.
Cool. The mechanic of Creeds is something I hadn't thought of. Wow, that opens up a whole bunch of possibilities for a D&D campaign, especially if you know the history of Christianity and its internal struggles to express its own dogma. I can envision Creeds for various analogies for groups like the Gnostics (who believed creation was evil — there is your Evil, Chaos, Necromancy, etc.), Arians, Nestorians, Monophysites, etc.
Thanks for the post! What a great idea!
This only proves my suggestion for an edit of the core rules should reflect this possibility if they are to have any claim at universality.
The core book, while usable in any D&D setting, is obviously designed to support the Pathfinder setting. Which means a polytheist default setting. This is pretty much how most core books of most game system are designed. It is not necessary to include a monotheist option in the core rules. That is the domain of house rules, other settings or supplements that alter how clerics and divine magic work.
As someone suggested, Green Ronin has published a couple of settings that are Judeo-Christian in basis. Perhaps try those instead of attempting to demand that Paizo include monotheism in the core book.
I have yet to see a claim to be a universal system from anyone at Paizo.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
This only proves my suggestion for an edit of the core rules should reflect this possibility if they are to have any claim at universality.
Well, I don't personally see how they would incorporate a monotheistic setting along with a henotheistic setting, which is what D&D actually encompasses. That is, the worship of one particular deity despite there being several actual deities.
I don't think Paizo must make this an option because they are going to do what they feel would be most profitable, and I don't think a monotheistic setting is something that most people want to run or play in. I think if it were done well, however, that many people would want to try it. Unfortunately I don't think there is enough "demand" per se of folks who want this type of setting in order for there to produce a quality monotheistic RPG product.
I pretty much feel it's up to you to houserule that if you desire, which is what I'm doing, because I personally don't think they could do it in a manner that I would find to my liking.
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Hi Onion 3:16.
Are you offended by the idea of pretending , in a fantasy world, there is only one God as there was in most of Europe from the 4th century on?
Well, I'm not, but I know that a number of my friends would be. They'd consider the idea of actually introducing the Lord God into a game to be blasphemous. It's one thing to pretend to be a make-believe god like Thor or Demeter. It's another thing to try to (a) stat up and then (b) role-play Yahweh.
I ... have never felt the need to incorporate my beliefs into the game and can't imagine a D&D that didn't include the polytheistic aspect.
How sad.
I'm trying to read that in any way that <i>doesn't</i> come across as condescending. It may be my biases, keeping me from hearing your intended tone of voice.
More generally, people, Onion 316 has a perfectly reasonable thesis here.
The classic "Why is there Evil" trope of Judaism suggests that one of the following must be wrong:
- God is all-good.
- God is all-wise and all-knowing.
- God is all-powerful.
So, we could set up the "Job campaign". We pre-suppose a Yahwistic deity who has been tricked / argued into allowing evil into the game world for some testing / strengthening / free will establishing / wheat-versus-chaff seperating reason. She has voluntarily recinded her omnipotence, perhaps permanently or perhaps for an extended Age.
Or the Deistic argument that God is busy elsewhere and has lost interest. (Maybe that's why they're called the Forgotten Realms. Or... maybe not.)
So there can certainly exist a struggle between the forces that seek to demonstrate that mortals can be corrupted, versus those which struggle for mortals' salvation. There's no practical difference between calling Asmodeus a "fallen angel" or a "god", between calling the forces of good "gods", "angels" or ... Maiar?
If we wish to use Tolkein as an example of a vaguely Christian-esque cosmology, I'd note, from Wikipedia's commentary on the Silmarillon:
"Before the creation of Eä (the universe), Eru created the Ainur. The universe was created with Arda (the world) at its centre through the Music of the Ainur, or Ainulindalë.
"After the music was corrupted by the greatest Ainu, Melkor, several of the most powerful Ainur entered Arda. Eru declined to interfere with Arda in any way and as such the further shaping and governing of Arda was left to these Ainur."
So, good gods, bad gods. The Creator being off somewhere, declining to interfere.
Actually, some of those points are wrong - if you want a medieval Christian setting. Hermetic magic was practiced by Christian priests. St. Francis of Assissi is close enough to being a Druid to make a go of it.Good point. But by citing only Christian users of spells, you've bolstered the main gist of #4, rather than refuting it -- you'd be able to have those classes, but not if the character worships any other god.
Just to play devil's advocate... :)
Exodus 7:10-11 -- "And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments."
(Non-God worshipping wizards and sorcerers? Check.)
Exodus 22:18 -- "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
(Witches that offend God? Check.)
I have yet to see a claim to be a universal system from anyone at Paizo.
I think our current plan is to make the book as open (as in, OGC) as possible. The more world-specific stuff we put in, the more we have to clamp down on as IP. :\
Finally, world neutrality is our goal. :)
To my mind, "world neutrality" is a synonym for "universality." If Pathfinder RPG is to be 3.5 only better, it cannot be better and be limited to a single world.
To demonstrate how innocuous my request is, I would like to point out that the Rules Cyclopedia states, "The D&D game does not deal with the ethical and theological beliefs the characters in the game." This opens the door to all kinds of interpretations, including monotheism.
The Alpha 1 Release states:
"Each deity has a number of spheres of influence, ideals and concepts that they represent and champion. Their followers can draw upon these domains for additional powers and abilities. Each cleric chooses two of the domains granted by their deity upon taking their first level."
Word Count = 45
"Clerics have access to two domains chosen at first level. These domains reflect the influence, ideals and conepts of various religions, creeds, or causes. The examples below of dieties and their domains are representative of the Pathfinder Universe."
Word Count = 38
The latter is far more "world neutral" and allows those of you who wish to play in a polytheistic world do so. It also acknowledges the possibility of a monotheistic reality.
Hi Onion 3:16.
Hi Chris.
How sad.
I'm trying to read that in any way that doesn't come across as condescending. It may be my biases, keeping me from hearing your intended tone of voice.
Oops. Sorry if I offended. I did not intend to be condescending. However, I obviously have. Again, apologies.
By the by, I don't normally comment on spelling, but there's something I think you'd want to know. The word is "antediluvian" (that is, "before the flood") not "antidiluvian" (which would mean, presumably, "against the flood").
Thank you. I stand corrected.
More generally, people, Onion 316 has a perfectly reasonable thesis here.
Again, thank you. I am simply asking for everyone to acknowledge this simple idea and have it reflected in a set of core rules.
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Perhaps I should remove myself from more religious discussions and try and remain neutral, since no one will ever see completely eye-to-eye on that issue.
I have no qualms about someone running a game with their own homebrew deity(ies). While I personally feel that the game would suffer with a more limited pantheon and wouldn't use one in my own game, there are obviously people who would. I think the issue is that placing mechanics for running this in a core book is going to open a can of worms. When creating a system to closely resembles a real-world religion, it is difficult for players to disassociate their own beliefs from the game, and I can't think of a single system that would make everyone happy, and it would be in any publisher's best interest to avoid the issue altogether. There seem to have been enough good suggestions offered on this board alone to make me believe than any polytheistic system can be adapted on a game-by-game basis to replicate a monotheistic world with little trouble without making one system for doing so the official standard.
Exodus 7:10-11 -- "And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent. Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments."
Heh. I thought of that one first; it's Old Testament, which I did later allow for. And especially keep reading: (12) "For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods." That's what I was getting at with the unbeatable SR vs. false believers, etc. Find me Biblical infidel wizards/druids/whatever whose powers are as great as one of God's chosen -- but I'll spare you the effort: there aren't any. THAT's the main thrust. Aaron doesn't need to make a dispelling check or compare caster levels. In a true Christian-worldview campaign, the power of God's servants would come directly from the allmighty, which means infinite caster level, which to me isn't much fun at all.
I've nothing against a monotheistic setting, but one in which success or failure is determined specifically by patron deity, rather than level or dice rolls, would get to be kind of dull.
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Is it that you're offended by the idea of pretending that, in a fantasy world, there is a pantheon of gods as there was in Greek or Norse mythology?Absolutely not, especially if your setting is actively attempting to to be analogous to Ancient Greece or medieval Scandinavia (but please note, the people who they went viking against were primarily Christian).
And most of the people the Christians burned at the stake were primarily pagan. and most of the people the Christians crusaded against were primarily Muslim, although that didnt stop them from killing alot of jews and the odd christian or two. Mostly, they killed everyone; it's just that they did all the killing in a place with alot of Musilms. And most of the people the Musilms warred against were all sorts, but they didnt actually take it personally until recently. It was just secular conquering.
Sorry, but if you're going to dump on the vikings for raiding christians, Ive got news for you; everyone raids everyone; and everyone thinks they're right. What, did you expect the vikings to say "oh, wait, these guys have the one right religion. lets turn the longboat around and go back without any swag."
Exodus 7:10-11 -- "And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments."
(Non-God worshipping wizards and sorcerers? Check.)
Excellent quote and point. Makes me wish the old 2e spell Sticks to Snakes still existed. :D Too bad that was a divine spell the pharoah's sorcerers were duplicating. I would conceed that evil clerics get their spells from another source, like Theophile wrote and I alluded to earlier. Also, one of the kings in the Old Testament (can't remember who now- Joshua?) did visit a diviner who called up a dead spirit to foretell the results of an upcoming battle. Clearly this is something that Jehovah would not allow or condone.
Exodus 22:18 -- "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
(Witches that offend God? Check.)
Close- That's the King James version that King James altered because he was on an anti-witch kick. The original text translates closer to "Thou shalt not suffer a heretic to live. Regardless, it's generally accepted that any spellcasting that isn't from God comes from a sinister source.
Considering some of the flaming I've seen on message boards, it's good to see people keeping it pretty civil here. Kudos to everyone! Thanks to the OP for bringing up a thought-provoking topic and also to Theophile for sharing your CS with us.
Hey Onion,
I'm actually working on a monotheistic campaign setting right now that actually incorporates some of your suggestions. <snip>
And having re-read your post I realize you've already made the suggestions that I've reccomended. Aww, shucks. [URL=smurf][/URL]
Still, Wizardry as an atheistic practice (or, I suppose more correctly, a non-theistic practice, in that it has no relevance to whether one is any form of theist or none at all) I think has a good deal of merit.
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Wizardry as a non-theistic practice, I think has a good deal of merit.
This is the D&D default. There might be a promethean "god of magic" that either taught magic to the peoples of the world, or otherwise functions as "patron saint" of arcane magic, but casting arcane spells has always been seen as the exercise of a non-sentient power source. Wizards, as spell casters, no more worship the god of magic than fighters, as fighters, worship the gods of strength or combat.
It could be different. I recently played a character whose powers came from immediate short-term pacts with supernatural powers, a la Dr. Strange. (And yes, those pacts were usually framed in rhyming verse.)
It would be doable as a Sha'ir-type caster, who, say, negotiated with Maya to cast ilusions, or petitioned Thor to cast bull's strength. No worship, no devotion, just one-time appeals.
(Oh, and, FeranEldritchKnight? It was Saul, consulting the witch at Endor in I Samuel 28.)
Ok, now I completly lost the aim of this thread.
I will just come back to the initial post.
I think the domain rules are completly usuable for poly- and monotheistic religions.
Just decide which domains are granted by "the one God" and let clerics choose as normal.
As for the "standard" D&D "pantheon", me too would like to see some chances.
I think the Eberron (or Ebberon, I can't remember that) setting is a good way. Combining several single deities into a number of pantheon's and let the player choose wether to worship the pantheon (and choose any two domains from all corresponding deities) or worship one single deity alone.
What ever he chooses, he is always worshipping the other gods of the pantheon for a certain degree.
SIDENOTE: I would like to see the deities of magic and (wild) natur be deleted - why?
1) Since all deities can grant magical abilities, magic seems not be a force under the control of only one specific deity, but a raw and natural energy flowing through all the multivers.
2) Since we already have druids who (in my POV should) worship the raw forces of nature (and no deity!), there shouldn't be clerics of the wild to clear the difference between clerics and druids.
Right? Right! ;)
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I have to agree with most of the others that while if this was to be done as a house rule or by a third party or the like, I see no issue with it and wish the players all the best.
However, one of the points that hasn't been brought up is that while the pathfinder RPG is going to be an expansion and revision of the 3.5 srd, its also going to have its default setting be in Golarion. So the core book is going to base its fluff information around the deities that are found in that setting.
In the same way that someone who was playing 3.5 could decide that they wanted to ditch pelor and the rest and go for a forgotten realms or an eberron feel, a group can choose to lean towards a monotheistic world as well. Its just not how the core setting works, so it doesn't make much sense to have it in the core book(beyond a similar disclaimer to that in 3.5 where they point out its a sample setting and feel free to integrate or make your own).
-Tarlane
(Oh, and, FeranEldritchKnight? It was Saul, consulting the witch at Endor in I Samuel 28.)
Thanks for the assist there. You would think a Star Wars nerd could remember the witch of Endor, but I always hated Ewoks. :P I was thinking Saul, then second-guessed it because of the "Road to Demascus" Saul/Paul guy.
The classic "Why is there Evil" trope of Judaism suggests that one of the following must be wrong:
- God is all-good.
- God is all-wise and all-knowing.
- God is all-powerful.
I prefer it stated as follows (imagine this on a sign on the wall of God's Office):
Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnibenevolent. Pick two.
Firstly, let me say as a devout Gnostic I find this entire thread relatively hilarious.
As a Militant Agnostic (I don't know and you don't either), I agree with you. :)
The way I would handle it is this - first, nix the undeath focus. Monotheist worlds won't really have much (or possibly not any) undead. If you're dealing with a faith similar in theosophy to Zoroasterianism, where there are functionally two gods, then you might have some undead running around, but I doubt it would be the focus of the faith. Instead, either replace turning with some other useful ability or give them the ability to turn members of enemy alignment and rebuke members of friendly alignment.
Disagree strongly. The entire concept of undead turning comes from the alleged ability of Christian holy relics, crosses, et cetera to ward off vampires.
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3) Evil. Well that one might be interesting but end's in something like Ravenloft and Darksun and Midnight all-in-one.
I've tinkered with a monotheistic cosmology for a few years where an evil god creates the material universe in an act of selfish loneliness. As mortal creatures die, he calls their souls to him. After a while, some mortals turn their attention away from the god and worship other things or nothing at all. This displeases the god and his displeasure is felt as a constant malaise throughout the universe. The god transforms some of the souls around him into servants - devils - whose job it is to MAKE mortals worship him through fear, bribery, deceit, whatever it takes (demons are rogue servants who just destroy). At some point, some of the devils discover that they can shield each other from the god's displeasure by taking it upon themselves. Sacrifice, and thus Good is born. These rebel devils (aka - angels) go on to protect mortals and try to teach them to not to worship the evil god. Kind of a reverse Fall of Satan.
Somebody already suggested it, but here you've got one 'god,' but he's not really a player in the world, like the idiot gods at the end of the universe in Lovecraft. The main agents are the archfiends and their minions vs. the archangels and their allies. In effect, they're the gods and it is they who grant clerical powers.
(The fun thing about the reverse Fall is that it makes it REALLY important for everybody to put their faith in the angelic host. By not aiding Good, anybody worshiping false gods or nature or whatever really is putting the whole world in danger. Talk about a motive to do missionary work ...)
Sorry, but if you're going to dump on the vikings for raiding christians, Ive got news for you; everyone raids everyone; and everyone thinks they're right. What, did you expect the vikings to say "oh, wait, these guys have the one right religion. lets turn the longboat around and go back without any swag."
My intention was never to "dump on the vikings." I have ancestry from that part of the world. I was simply trying to point out that even in a campaign analogous to Scandinavia, the need to acknowledge/have a mechanic for a monotheistic/Christian religion still exists if you are going to be historically accurate.
Unfortunately, as history has proven over and over again, every group of people (ethnic, national, religious or otherwise) has been both an oppressor and a victim. I certainly don't pretend that this reality doesn't exist.
I am not asking anyone to submit to my own religious beliefs (that would actually be contrary to those very beliefs). I AM asking that the Pathfinder RPG take a step back from wording that DOES require a religious world-view in its mechanics for divine magic.