I had a chance to run a small playtest this past Saturday. The party consisted of three 10th level characters, a half-orc cleric, a human fighter, and an elven rogue (build as a ranger).
This post will relate specifically to the combat and magic. I will post the impressions on feats and classes in their respective forums.
The playtest consisted of 6 encounters built using the pathfinder Encounter system. Four of the encounters were of average difficulty. The last one was the equivalent of a hard/epic by the creature’s CRs. The encounters were:
APL –3: Chain devil and two shambling mounds
APL –2: Two red slaad in rough terrain
APL –1: Two mind flayers
APL: Bone devil
APL +2 : 11th level lich cleric of Urgathoa, two specters, and one dust wight (MM3)
Average Party Level: 9th (3 10th level characters)
ENCOUNTER 1
The Chain devil and shambling mounds were little more than a speed bump. One shambling mound managed to get a hold result on the fighter. With the shambler’s reach, I ruled that the fighter could close on it, but if he did so he would not be able to move away. That was fine, as he manage to kill the creature on his turn.
This was the first encounter that included grappling. The Shambling Mounds had a CMB of 14 [6 (BAB) + 5 (Strength) + 1 (Large size) + 2 (for treating the improved grab ability as the Improved Grapple feat)]. Compared to the Fighter’s CMB of 16 [10 (BAB) + 2 (Strength) + 4 (Defensive Combat Training feat), this meant that the shamblers still had a chance to grapple, but not as great a chance as they would against a creature of their CR. I had ruled they could constrict on a "grabbed" result, but that never came into play. Overall, the grapple rules worked here.
ENCOUNTER 2
The two red slaad were quickly reduced to one when the cleric succeeded with a dismissal. This left the fighter trading blows with the remaining slaad for a couple of rounds. The rough terrain and cave walls slowed the cleric down a bit and the rogue had a hard time lining up a clear shot with his bow.
The slaad did manage to successfully stun the rogue and fighter with its croak at one point, but died from the cleric’s great axe the following round.
ENCOUNTER 3
The two mindflayers surprised the party as they were recovering from the slaad fight, and promptly mind blasted them. The Fighter and Rogue were stunned for 5 rounds. The cleric lost initiative and failed a save against a suggestion to leave. As it was pointed out the suggestion was to leave and not to leave and not come back, the cleric exited the cave and then ran back in to try and save the other characters.
This should have been a TPK. It wasn’t. A couple of things worked in their favor. The characters were still in rough terrain, so the Illitihids were not quick to get to the rogue. The Fighter was not so lucky. It was at this point the new grapple rules broke.
Stunned characters are not helpless, so the flayer made for tentacle attacks. Two hit. It them tried to grapple. Under the 3.5 rules, a stunned character cannot make an opposed grapple check. The pathfinder system does not use an opposed check, so the Fighter’s CMB was still 16. I did impose a –2 penalty (the AC penalty from being stunned) to the CMB, so it became a 14. A mind flayer has a base CMB of 9 [6 (BAB) + 1 (Strength) + 2 (for treating the improved grab ability as the Improved Grapple feat)]. It gets an extra +2 for every tentacle that hits, so in this case the modified CMB was 13. The Mind flayer could not succeed unless it rolled a 16 or better (DC 29), and that only got a “held” result. Even with the +5 each round from the fighter being unable to escape, the best the flayer could do would be a slow climb up the grapple chart.
Round 1: A roll of 16+ gets a “held” result.
Round 2: A roll of 16+ improves to a “grabbed” result. A roll of 11-15 keeps the “held” result. A lower roll and you loose the hold.
Round 3: A roll of 16+ improves to a “grappled” result and the flayer has reached the brain. A roll of 11–15 and you keep the “grabbed” result, a roll of 6–12 and to drop to “held.”
Round 4: If the flayer has rolled 16+ for three straight rounds (without being killed by someone else), a roll of 11+ this round gets the brain.
In all honesty, the mind flayer should have had a nice meal. However, since the Pathfinder grappling system dose not currently address stunned opponents, going strictly by the RAW, the stunned fighter managed to fight off the mind flayer long enough for the cleric to kill both of the mind flayers by himself.
Now during this time, the mind flayer did make additional tentacle attacks to try and upgrade his grapple check and I continued to deal damage from the tentacles that had already hit (without new attack rols), but a series of bad attacks rolls prevented any success before the cleric killed him (Mind Flayer’s have low HP).
However, 4 rounds is a long time in combat. That was more than enough time for the cleric to kill both mind flayers.
So, while the new grapple system tends to work, some issues need to be clarified, such as how Stun affects CMB. I probably should have also allowed the mind flayer to use its Dexterity instead of Strength for its CMB, but this would have increased the chances by one.
ENCOUNTER 4
The bone devil was a straight up fight. Good use of sneak attack by the rogue and the cleric’s great axe made the difference. The Fighter failed the fear save and was out of the fight. Both the cleric and fighter took 6 points of Strength damage from the poison, which drug the fight out some. This encounter was a good challenge for three 10th level characters.
ENCOUNTER 5
This encounter took place in an open graveyard. For this battle, I gave the dust wight a 25% resistance to sneak attacks and the Lich a 50% resistance. The specters kept their undead immunity to sneak attack. The PCs were also fully healed and rested. They knew they were facing undead, but not what types.
The Specters engaged the PCs first but a turn attempt sent them fleeing (and out of the fight). The cleric next engaged the dust wight as the rogue used gravestones to set up a ranged sneak attack. The fighter moved toward the lich. The lich advanced and hit the party with a rebuke (which completely healed the dust wight and hurt the cleric and fighter, though both saved for half damage). The fighter engaged the lich on the next round. The lich counter attacked with its touch attack backed up by a bleeding touch from the death domain. This prompted another turn attempt, this healed the fighter (ending the bleed damage) and caused the dust wight to flee (though it was killed by the rogue’s sneak attacks a few rounds later). The Lich was unharmed due to turn resistance (+4 to the save and 8 points of positive energy resistance). The Lich responded by casting flame strike the rogue and cleric, but it was too little, too late. Without defenders, the battle went downhill for the lich.
An 11th level lich, under the Pathfinder rules, is only a CR 11 [(Class level –2) +2 for the template]. The specters and dust wight are all CR 7. This should have been between a hard and an epic encounter, but it was only marginally more challenging than the bone devil. With the two specters being removed from the battle by the cleric’s turning, the remaining encounter (a dust wight and lich) became a more balanced fight.
Overall the encounter level system seemed to work well. The fear effects of turn can seriously affect and encounter though. The lich encounter also did not devolve into the cleric and lich trading turn and rebuke for damage/healing. I was a fraid it would and was very pleased it did not.
Great Post - this is what we need to see more of. I'm curious how you chose the various encounters? Were they just things you thought would be interesting?
Great Post - this is what we need to see more of. I'm curious how you chose the various encounters? Were they just things you thought would be interesting?
In part, yes. I was testing out the encounter creation system and mostly picked monsters that looked interesting. The shamblers and mind flayers were the exception. A lot of questions have popped up regarding the grapple rules. In general they work, but larger creatures tend to be hard to escape from (which is not the case with shambling mounds). Mind flayers have a low CMB, and I wanted to see if they were still scary.
In all honesty, the fighter was built to avoid grapples (with the Defensive Combat Training feat). The rogue or cleric, would likely have been flayer food in two rounds (The rogue had a CMB of 9 and the cleric had a CMB of 12).
Still, many of the condition effects need to be addressed in how they interact with the CMB.
Some the condition effects that affected grapple are:
Dazed, nauseated, and Stun - Under 3.5 such effects prevented the opposed grapple check allowing an automatic grapple.
Dazzled, entangled, shakened, sickened - Under 3.5, the attack penalties would have applied to the opposed grapple checks.
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An interesting post, and I like the focus on the Encounter Creation/Encounter Level rules.
It seems that character choice still makes EL very subjective: ie the Turn Undead decreased the threat level of the undead encounter, but I wonder how much of a threat some of the others would have been with a Wizard in the party.
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Some the condition effects that affected grapple are:
Dazed, nauseated, and Stun - Under 3.5 such effects prevented the opposed grapple check allowing an automatic grapple.
According to what rule?
Those conditions prevent actions. They do not prevent making reactive rolls, even contested checks, that are non-actions.
Some the condition effects that affected grapple are:
Dazed, nauseated, and Stun - Under 3.5 such effects prevented the opposed grapple check allowing an automatic grapple.
According to what rule?
Those conditions prevent actions. They do not prevent making reactive rolls, even contested checks, that are non-actions.
I would presume that if a condition prevents a character from taking any actions (or any action but moving in the case of nauseated), then the target could not oppose a grapple.
However, I see you point and will check the rules compendium when I get home. Regardless, it should be easier to grapple a stuned, dazed, or nauseated opponent.
Even if grappling is not affected, other actions may be. Under 3.5 Entangled and Shaken impose a penalty to attack rolls. This would have affect the opposed attack rolls for Disarm attempts under 3.5. The Pathfinder system uses BAB and not opposed rolls. The penalties should be applied.
The point being that the conditions need to be revised as needed. Any rule change can have unexpected effects on other rules.
Edited for clarity.
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I would presume that if a condition prevents a character from taking any actions (or any action but moving in the case of nauseated), then the target could not oppose a grapple.
However, I see you point and will check the rules compendium when I get home. Regardless, it should be easier to grapple a stuned, dazed, or nauseated opponent.
I checked it.
I checked every source I had.It is mentioned in precisely one place:
Since those articles are not officially official rules for the game, their content is commonly handwaved away. (Hence the silly link name.)
And it is only that article that suggests a modifier for it - treating the relevant stat for the opposed check as a 0 so the person affected has a -5 ability modifier. (Which can wind up being a considerable shift for a fighter type.)
I would not object to that being made official for the PFRPG, but I am always very cautious about bringing up anything in those articles because of "incidents" in other discussions about them.
I checked it.
I checked every source I had.
It is mentioned in precisely one place:Since those articles are not officially official rules for the game, their content is commonly handwaved away. (Hence the silly link name.)
And it is only that article that suggests a modifier for it - treating the relevant stat for the opposed check as a 0 so the person affected has a -5 ability modifier. (Which can wind up being a considerable shift for a fighter type.)I would not object to that being made official for the PFRPG, but I am always very cautious about bringing up anything in those articles because of "incidents" in other discussions about them.
I found the same reference.
I also thought about it some and think any modifiers should only apply to stunned targets. Nausated and dazed targets are still capable of fully defending themselves by the RAW. Applying the -2 AC penalty from stunned to the CMB might be an easy solution. The fact that a stunned/dazed/nauseated target cannot use actions to escape means the a grappling opponent is going to get an automatic +5 to improve the grapple next round anyway.
The purpose of the original pose was to point out how some conditions should affect the CMB. I just did not use the best example, even though that was what caused the discussion during the playtest.
I actually think that encounter 5 would have been more epic had the Rogue had not got his sneak attack chances and that the Lich had not engaged the fighter. Just some observations though.
While the sneak attacks played a part, the big factors were the spectres fleeing the scene and the low hp of the lich. The turn took the spectres out for 10 rounds (five rounds to flee and five round to come back). An 11th level lich has only 71 hit points. I realized afterwards that I should have gave it toughness (for 13 more hp).
I plan to replay this type of encounter again and see where the problem lies. I may have been a fluke of the encounter (I made some really bad rolls on save for the undead) or it may lie in the overall effect of turn undead (damage and fear).
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What spells did the Lich have? The Dust Wight is a beast of an Undead. 120 HP, DR 5/Adamantine, and the rogue took it out with a sneak? What about it's Petrifying Cloud? Did it effect anyone? This creature also looks like it should have really pounded the Player's gear. I don't see any problem with the Spectre's in the encounter. They are really weak undead as compared to others. Turn Resist 2 really doesn't help them either. I'm interested in seeing another playtest for Encounter 5.
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The purpose of the original pose was to point out how some conditions should affect the CMB. I just did not use the best example, even though that was what caused the discussion during the playtest.
Actually, I think your example fits quite well.
Why?How long does it take a mindflayer to extract a brain?
1-4 rounds.
Which, assuming it can get an initial hold, is about how long it will take with an "automatic" +5 upgrade bonus every round from a stunned opponent.
Depending on the success of the initial grapple check, the special ability matches the revised rule.
:)
What spells did the Lich have? The Dust Wight is a beast of an Undead. 120 HP, DR 5/Adamantine, and the rogue took it out with a sneak? What about it's Petrifying Cloud? Did it effect anyone? This creature also looks like it should have really pounded the Player's gear. I don't see any problem with the Spectre's in the encounter. They are really weak undead as compared to others. Turn Resist 2 really doesn't help them either. I'm interested in seeing another playtest for Encounter 5.
The cleric had engaged the dust wight just prior to the fighter engaging the lich and had inflicted some good damage with a power attack using a great axe. The turn undead use was a response to both nearly being petrified and to the fighter suffering bleed damage from the lich. In all honesty, I rolled bad for the dust wight's save.
In the case of the rogue, he was hasted, had rapid shoit, and had hidden 30 feet out behind some tombstones and use ranged sneak attacks to drop the dust wight when it fled. DR 5/admantine is nothing when you are doing 6d6 total damage and have precise shot to use it against targets in melee. He landed 4 hits over 2 rounds for around 80 points of damage. That plus the power attack from the cleric and the turn damage did the dust wight in.
With me not allowing sneak attack to affect the specters, they would have been a bigger threat in the fight.
The purpose of the original pose was to point out how some conditions should affect the CMB. I just did not use the best example, even though that was what caused the discussion during the playtest.Actually, I think your example fits quite well.
Why?
How long does it take a mindflayer to extract a brain?
1-4 rounds.
Which, assuming it can get an initial hold, is about how long it will take with an "automatic" +5 upgrade bonus every round from a stunned opponent.
Depending on the success of the initial grapple check, the special ability matches the revised rule.
:)
True, but I still cannot help but think that the encounter should have been a TPK. Four rounds for a mind flayer just seems long.
While the sneak attacks played a part, the big factors were the spectres fleeing the scene and the low hp of the lich.
I've been giving undead bonus hit points based on their charisma bonus - it definitely toughens them up, but usually not too much. I did have a kobold sorcerer lich that was a bit over the top, but I probably shouldn't have included his enhancement bonus.
That kind of sounds like what they did with Undead in MM3. They have some ability that gives them HP according to their charisma modifier. Unholy toughness was what it was called. I don't think they used it in any other book though. It was a great ability for undead whom are starved for more HP.
It beats the "let us throw in a huge number of extra HD to toughen the undead up" that they did in ht MM3. How was a 7th level 3.5 cleric suppose to turn dust wight (CR7, 16 HD) or a 13th level cleric suppose to turn a charnel hound (CR 13, 21 HD)
The drowned was even worse. It is a CR 8 undead with 20 HD. Yeah, like an 8th level cleric has a chance with that. A 16th level cleric would have a hard time turning them.
Of course the necronaut is CR 14 and 32 HD.
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That kind of sounds like what they did with Undead in MM3. They have some ability that gives them HP according to their charisma modifier. Unholy toughness was what it was called. I don't think they used it in any other book though. It was a great ability for undead whom are starved for more HP.It beats the "let us throw in a huge number of extra HD to toughen the undead up" that they did in ht MM3. How was a 7th level 3.5 cleric suppose to turn dust wight (CR7, 16 HD) or a 13th level cleric suppose to turn a charnel hound (CR 13, 21 HD)
The drowned was even worse. It is a CR 8 undead with 20 HD. Yeah, like an 8th level cleric has a chance with that. A 16th level cleric would have a hard time turning them.
Of course the necronaut is CR 14 and 32 HD.
You just succinctly summed up my problems with the Turning system that I have had w/ 3rd edition for a very long time. With Undead type getting about 3-4 HD per CR - it gets ridiculously hard (impossible) to start turning undead about about 8th level.
I've had a "turning damage" to creatures system in my home games for a long time now. It's nice to see this being established by PF, now.
Thanks for all the summation. You did a great job.
One thing - which is a mechanics/rules issue - I've always understood and believed the rules to be that if such a rogue was hiding among the gravestones to get a sneak attack (sniper shot) only the first of the 3 or 4 arrows that round should have sneak attack applied? Since after the first - his position is officially "revealed." Is this a correct understanding and is this how you were adjudicating things? And did the rogue have to find a new place to hide the next round before being granted more sneak attacks?
I look forward to reading more of your playtesting exploits.
Robert
One thing - which is a mechanics/rules issue - I've always understood and believed the rules to be that if such a rogue was hiding among the gravestones to get a sneak attack (sniper shot) only the first of the 3 or 4 arrows that round should have sneak attack applied? Since after the first - his position is officially "revealed." Is this a correct understanding and is this how you were adjudicating things? And did the rogue have to find a new place to hide the next round before being granted more sneak attacks?
Robert
The Rules Compendium states that precision damage (sneak attack, sudden strike, etc.) applies to multiple attacks made during a full attack. Multiple attacks from anything other than a full-round action (Manyshot, a quickened scorching ray, and so forth) typically apply the precision damage to only the first attack in the group. Some feats (Improved Manyshot) change this.
That kind of sounds like what they did with Undead in MM3. They have some ability that gives them HP according to their charisma modifier. Unholy toughness was what it was called. I don't think they used it in any other book though. It was a great ability for undead whom are starved for more HP.
Necromancer Games had a feat that did the same thing in one of the Tome of Horrors books. Its one of the 3rd party things I tend to use a lot to make sure that undead are "up to snuff," though it obviously only does you any good if you have an undead with a decent charisma.