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Well the 12th Iconic has been spoiled as a fighter/sorcerer so it's only inevitable that we'll see revised multiclassing rules.. we'll just have to wait and see.
I don't think the solution lines in +1 caster levels as a built in feature to classes though... perhaps a feat that gives you +1 caster level, but there'd have to be some limits on it.
Well the 12th Iconic has been spoiled as a fighter/sorcerer so it's only inevitable that we'll see revised multiclassing rules.. we'll just have to wait and see.
Was this spoiled during the latest Paizo chat?
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Here's a feat I cooked up real quick.
Spellcaster Training [General]
Choose a spellcaster class.
Prerequisites: You must have another class in addition to a class with spellcaster levels and have a caster level of atleast 1.
Benefit: You gain +1 level to chosen spellcasting class.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you take this feat you gain additional spells per day and an increase in caster level as if you'd gained a level in that class. You do not however gain any of the other benefits a character would gain from that class. Your spellcasting level may not exceed you character level as a result of this feat or any ability granted by another class.
(Feel free to steal it Paizo. :) )
Feat can be used to multiclass a Ranger into something else, assuming the Ranger gained his spells. It can be used with a fighter who multiclasses as a Wizard or something else.
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Here's a feat I cooked up real quick.
Spellcaster Training [General]
Choose a spellcaster class.
Prerequisites: You must have another class in addition to a class with spellcaster levels and have a caster level of atleast 1.
Benefit: You gain +1 caster level in chosen spellcaster class.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Your caster level may not exceed you character level as a result of this feat or any ability granted by another class.(Feel free to steal it Paizo. :) )
Feat can be used to multiclass a Ranger into something else, assuming the Ranger gained his spells. It can be used with a fighter who multiclasses as a Wizard or something else.
I believe there's a feat similar to this already, called Practiced Spellcasting, which gives you a +4 to your caster level, but does not allow you to exceed your character level, so a 4th level Fighter/4th level Wizard would have CL 8th for his spells.
Now I'm not sure because of the wording, but does your feat also allow spellcasters to earn new levels of spells and learn new spells, etc.? In that case, if it increased you effective spellcaster level, it would be pretty useful, especially if multiclassing into a Fighter or something, since they get a bunch of feats, they could spend their Character Level feats on this.
There is already a feat Practiced Spell Caster that gives you up to 4 caster levels no greater than your character level (WOC Feat)
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I'm not quite sure I agree that there needs to be a "fix" other than perhaps feats (similar to Practiced Spellcaster, or the various feats in the "Complete" books that allow some abilities to stack) or Prestige Classes (such as those you mention). Spellcasting is a big ability, and wanting to mix-and-match with other classes and still progress as a spellcaster is (to me) akin to multiclassing between paladin and barbarian - there's a reason it's not built that way.
What specifically do you have against Mystic Theurge and Eldritch Knight as a way to maximize multi-classing? They seem fairly potent solutions to mixing classes.
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I believe there's a feat similar to this already, called Practiced Spellcasting, which gives you a +4 to your caster level, but does not allow you to exceed your character level, so a 4th level Fighter/4th level Wizard would have CL 8th for his spells.
Oye.. figures, I get lazy and don't type stuff up and I run right into confusion on the intention. I edited it to make it more clear. :P
Now I'm not sure because of the wording, but does your feat also allow spellcasters to earn new levels of spells and learn new spells, etc.?
Yes that was the intent, I just didn't word it proper.
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What specifically do you have against Mystic Theurge and Eldritch Knight as a way to maximize multi-classing? They seem fairly potent solutions to mixing classes.
Why use a prestige class then when you could just be a Duskblade... or even one of the prestige classes in Complete Warrior that is sword & sorcery.
The point, multiclassing gimps your spellcasting ability and there needs to be a work around/trade off.
+1 to one existing class
why not introduce a base cast bonus (BCB) - similar to BAB which replaces caster level. If i remember correctly GRR Thieves World used something like this. Even non-spellcasting classes had a BCB to reduce the gap for multiclassing spellcasters. It was something along the lines:
Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer (true spellcasters): good BCB
Paladin, Ranger: average BCB
Fighter, Rogue, and others: poor BCB
thats not a bad ideal beastman.
What specifically do you have against Mystic Theurge and Eldritch Knight as a way to maximize multi-classing? They seem fairly potent solutions to mixing classes.
But they seem very limited in what they can do. I would like the option to not have to take a prestige class to make a particular class combination useful. I think prestige classes should be more special than, "I combine two other classes and make the combination useful."
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This concept that spellcasters are weaker when multiclassing is directly tied into the classes that don't get abilities throughout their progression.
wizards get new spells and an increased caster level every level while fighters get feats every other level. by providing fighters with something every level they also lose out.
The problem is that melees building block is the BAB but spellcasters rely on CL and while every class provides a BAB only spellcasting classes provide increased CL. Is this a bad thing? I personally don't think so. the Practiced Spellcaster feat is more than adequate for multiclassing purposes.
My only other suggestion for casters to increase their power would be to provide spellcasting levels with the choice to increase other casting levels from other spellcasting classes.
e.g. A 5th level wizard decides to take a level in cleric so has the choice of either gaining the spellcasting of a 1st level cleric or increasing his wizard spellcasting to that of a 6th level wizard.
This is open for abuse as in effect you would now be a wizard with d8 hit dice and average BAB with no penalties to spellcasting so it would have to be limited in some way. perhaps the level transfer can only happen to a maximum of half the class level and not possible at 1st.
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+1 to one existing classwhy not introduce a base cast bonus (BCB) - similar to BAB which replaces caster level. If i remember correctly GRR Thieves World used something like this. Even non-spellcasting classes had a BCB to reduce the gap for multiclassing spellcasters. It was something along the lines:
Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer (true spellcasters): good BCB
Paladin, Ranger: average BCB
Fighter, Rogue, and others: poor BCB
I believe Unearthed Arcana has something like that, seperating out 'strong spellcasting classes' and the like.
It's a nifty idea.
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What specifically do you have against Mystic Theurge and Eldritch Knight as a way to maximize multi-classing? They seem fairly potent solutions to mixing classes.Why use a prestige class then when you could just be a Duskblade... or even one of the prestige classes in Complete Warrior that is sword & sorcery.
The point, multiclassing gimps your spellcasting ability and there needs to be a work around/trade off.
I agree. Practiced Spellcasting isn't quite adequate to cover the problem.
I can see using feats to compensate as a workable solution.
Practiced spellcasting is just caster level, and does nothing to help you cast more spells or learn new spells.
Perhaps a new feat that increases your caster level by 1 or 2, including new spell slots and spell levels?
What specifically do you have against Mystic Theurge and Eldritch Knight as a way to maximize multi-classing? They seem fairly potent solutions to mixing classes.Why use a prestige class then when you could just be a Duskblade... or even one of the prestige classes in Complete Warrior that is sword & sorcery.
Or the battle sorcerer in the SRD.
The point, multiclassing gimps your spellcasting ability and there needs to be a work around/trade off.
Unrestricted multiclassing hurts primary spellcasters; taking more than 1-3 levels in a different class is usually a bad idea. IMO, PrCs like arcane trickster, eldritch knight, and mystic theurge are where the "combo-class" concepts (advancing in two disciplines simultaneously) should be. Whether or not specific PrCs are well designed for that function is a different argument (i.e., no spell progression for arcane archer and d6 HD for eldritch knight).
why not introduce a base cast bonus (BCB) - similar to BAB which replaces caster level.I believe Unearthed Arcana has something like that, seperating out 'strong spellcasting classes' and the like.
Link to SRD: Magic rating variant.
Link to SRD: Magic rating variant.why not introduce a base cast bonus (BCB) - similar to BAB which replaces caster level.I believe Unearthed Arcana has something like that, seperating out 'strong spellcasting classes' and the like.
ah how did i miss this .it will be used.
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The Midnight campaign setting, while restrictive on spellcasting, had spells available to all characters, as it was just a feat required to learn spells of a certain school/power level; caster level was equal to character level.
Unearthed Arcana had the "gestalt" option, which was more akin to 2ed multiclassing, where you progress in both classes at the same time ... check it out, as it may suit your desires.
The Midnight campaign setting, while restrictive on spellcasting, had spells available to all characters
I "hate" if fritz farmer or carl carpenter casts spells. but this is personal taste i guess.
Random Idea: calculate character level like improved monster CRs.
That is, work out which classes are "associated" and which are not. When the character reaches a new character level, he can take either an associated class level or two non-associated class levels.
So a 10th level fighter, for example, could either take one more level of fighter, or he could take two levels of wizard. He'd still be considered an 11th level character (ECL 11) either way, and have a CR of 11 -- just like a CR 10 melee-oriented monster that took either one "associated" level of fighter or two "non-associated" levels of wizard.
At 15th level, the character in question could have ten levels of fighter and ten of wizard; from then on, levels in either would be "associated".
(Yes, this does break in quite interesting ways. A full rule would have to have ways to handle that . . . )
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To fix multiclassing spellcasters, I came up with a house feat to solve the issue...
IMRPOVED PRACTICED SPELLCASTER [GENERAL]
Through dedication and training, your character is able to cast spells as if they had received dedicated training. House Rule
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 8 ranks, Practiced Spellcaster.
Benefit: When you gain this feat, your chosen class for spellcasting in Practiced Spellcaster improves for spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) by 4 levels, up to a maximum casting class level equal to your Hit Dice. However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain Hit Dice in levels of non-spellcasting classes, you might be able to apply the rest of the bonus.
While you are effectively are able to cast spells as if you had 4 additional levels in your chosen spellcasting class, you gain no extra abilities associated with that class, such as turning undead, familiar abilities, or the like.
A character with two or more spellcasting classes (such as a bard/sorcerer or a ranger/druid) must choose which class gains the feat's effect.
Special: You may select this feat multiple times. Each time you choose it, you must apply it to a different spellcasting class. For instance, a 4th-level cleric/5th-level wizard who had selected this feat twice would cast cleric spells as an 8th-level caster and wizard spells as a 9th-level caster.
Move the multi-classer up on the XP Chart
So a single class character with 71k XP would be level 10 while the multiclasser would be lvl 7/7 (strongest features of both class, no cumulative BAB or saves) with a gap of 6k XP till being 8/8.
Just a thought
Edit: Cleaned up grammar a tad
To fix multiclassing spellcasters, I came up with a house feat to solve the issue...
IMRPOVED PRACTICED SPELLCASTER [GENERAL]
<snip>
Well, the big problem is that PS isn't open content, so unavailable to the Pathfinder RPG. But skipping that . . .
Balance-wise, are the hybrid prestige classes still available?
Wiz 3 Ftr 2 still is weaker than Wiz 5 or Ftr 5, so there's still the low-level effectiveness problem. Then Wiz3/Ftr3 with IPS (6th is the first feat level after spellcraft 8) is casting as a Wiz 6 but has a lot more hit points, BAB, and weapon options. Wiz3/Ftr3/EK1 through Wiz3/Ftr3/EK10 keeps you a character with full wizard spellcasting for the character level plus much more BAB, HP, and weapons. Finish out to 20 with wizard levels, and you're still plainly superior to a straight wizard. In epic levels you start to lose some ground, as EKs only get 1 bonus feat/4 levels instead of three, of course.
Balance-wise, are the hybrid prestige classes still available?
The arcane trickster, eldritch knight, and mystic theurge are all in the SRD, as is the battle sorcerer variant, and as such are OGL material. Balance-wise, they can be decent options, although the PrCs are a bit better suited for wizards than sorcerers (wizards can qualify one level earlier). Arcane trickster is a fairly good mix of arcane caster and rogue. Battle sorcerer is superior to eldritch knight for a caster that can also melee occasionally, while wizard 6/fighter 2 (fighter 1/spellsword 1 for a non-OGL version)/eldritch knight 8/archmage 4 is a fairly strong progression for casters that can protect themselves in a pinch (the battle sorcerer gets more hp, but both end up with +15 BAB at 20th level). Mystic theurge is a good choice for a cleric/wizard who worships a deity with the Magic domain.
Some issues:
- Arcane archer should really be a hybrid PrC, also. A spellcasting progression of +1 every other level would probably be balanced.
- Arcane trickster, considering a minimum character level of 8 (rogue 3/wizard 5) or 9 (rogue 3/sorcerer 6) to qualify, should probably have 6 + Int mod skills per level.
- Eldritch knight should have d8 HD instead of d6.
- Mystic theurges should decide which caster (cleric or wizard) to favor and choose a second PrC to round out their progression (either archmage 4 after cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 10 or thaumaturgist 2 after cleric 3/wizard (conjurer?) 3/mystic theurge 4 to finish as cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 10/thaumaturgist 4 are good choices; in both cases, spellcasting progression is at 17th in the primary and 13th in the secondary at 20th level).
Balance-wise, are the hybrid prestige classes still available?The arcane trickster, eldritch knight, and mystic theurge are all in the SRD, as is the battle sorcerer variant, and as such are OGL material.
Er, yes, I understood that. I specifically meant in the context of the campaign of the DM who mentioned the "Improved Practiced Spellcaster" house rule. Thus the quote at the top of my post, and the fact that my post was exploring a specific broken interaction between that feat and the hybrid classes.
What about just combining the two ideas presented: Feats and BCB?
Have a feat that allows a caster to consider levels in a non-spellcasting class (or a spellcasting class of a different tradition: arcane vs. divine) to add 1 spellcaster level for every 3 levels gained. And if the class is of the same tradition, then it adds 1 spellcaster level for every 2 levels in the other class.
Then the feat could be taken a second time (or as an improved version) to change it to 1 for every 2 for non-spellcasting/different style, and 1 for 1 for spellcasting of the same kind.
Something like Magical Cross-Training. So a fighter/sorcerer with the basic feat would count every 3 levels of Fighter as a spellcasting level for sorcerer, or every 2 levels with the improved version.
And a wizard/cleric with the improved version would have half their cleric levels as spellcasting levels as a wizard, and half their wizard levels as spellcasting levels as a cleric.
One of the things I like about what I'm hearing about 4th edition is the paragon and epic level things. I'd like to see Paizo redefine the whole concept of prestige classes to be something along these lines.
The idea would be to strip everything out of the prestige class other than the special abilities gained and have the character advance in the core class in BAB, Saves, and other class specific things such as sneak attack, feats (fighters), rage and other barbarian things, wild shaping and spells for druids, feats and spells for wizards, etc.
When you joined the prestige class, you'd have to specify which of your base classes you're going to continue to progress in while in the prestige class. Or, you could say that every character has to have a "base" class that is they're primary class no matter how many levels of other classes they take or how many prestige class levels they take.
I'm not sure if this would unbalance game play all that much. Paizo could convert the standard prestige classes that are in the SRD and provide guidelines for converting other prestige classes. It's what I'd like to see.
I dislike the duskblade, hexblade, and arcane trickster for the same reasons I dislike paladins, rangers, druids, and barbarians.
Especially with the flexible system Paizo is putting out, why can't you make paladins, rangers, and barbarians off the main fighter template with different feat options and multiclassing to cover the cleric/druid/rogue abilities?
What makes a druid different than a cleric of nature?
Mind you, I'd like to see the difference before condemning the system, but it gave rise to the idea of mixing things up into a new base class. I'm not sure I like that solution; I'd rather multiclass.
That said, multiclassing in general does need a refit; under the current system, what you gain in flexibility does NOT compensate you for the loss of higher end abilities, especially in caster classes. I agree that stacking BAB allows fighter types to proceed with less penalty than FX types. I'll take a look at the 'caster BAB' idea, it sounds like something that's been needed for a while.
But anyway - I'd rather see a system that is flexible enough to meld to the character I want to play, rather than one where I'm picking through an encyclopedia of hundreds of classes, none of which are exactly what I want. Also, if I'm spending a feat to be as cool as class X (who doesn't spend that feat), I'd hope that there was some other area where I'm cooler (even [possibly especially] if class X has a feat choice to cover that).
I've suggested some thing like this before, except they're would be three different ratings, Arcane, Divine and Martial, and the B and C Columns would progress faster.
I'd have Column B be 3/4 lvl and Column C be 1/2 lvl or Column B be 2/3 lvl and Column C be 1/3 lvl perhaps. I'd also have a Martial Rating for Martial special abilities and perhaps certain abilities. For instance if you have levels in a class with Uncanny Dodge, you'd use you're Martial Rating to determine if you'd have it and Improved Uncanny Dodge or not.
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What about just combining the two ideas presented: Feats and BCB?
Have a feat that allows a caster to consider levels in a non-spellcasting class (or a spellcasting class of a different tradition: arcane vs. divine) to add 1 spellcaster level for every 3 levels gained. And if the class is of the same tradition, then it adds 1 spellcaster level for every 2 levels in the other class.
Then the feat could be taken a second time (or as an improved version) to change it to 1 for every 2 for non-spellcasting/different style, and 1 for 1 for spellcasting of the same kind.
Something like Magical Cross-Training. So a fighter/sorcerer with the basic feat would count every 3 levels of Fighter as a spellcasting level for sorcerer, or every 2 levels with the improved version.
And a wizard/cleric with the improved version would have half their cleric levels as spellcasting levels as a wizard, and half their wizard levels as spellcasting levels as a cleric.
I particularly like this. It's a good option! After all, the default of a lot of prestige classes out there is to allow spellcasting advancement at 1/1 or 2/1, so making the default 3/1 is not bad at all!
Nice suggestion!
Personally, I think multi-classing works just fine the way it is. I don't think a Fighter/Wizard should be as good at fighting or casting spells as a fighter or a mage and if you want to be nearly as good then you should take one of the prestige classes mentioned above that allow it.
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First, why does a multi-classing caster have to get something? Versatility has to have a price somewhere along the line.
Second, Why create a whole new subsystem with additional calculations that will inevitably provide the same issues as stacking initial save and BAB bonuses?
Third, if the real problem is further down the line, why not resolve it down the line? If there are combos required for prestige classes that make the characters lousy at 4th-8th levels, change the requirements for the prestige classes.
Instead of a mystic theurge requiring multiple suck levels because they have to multiclass, just change the class requirments to let them be 5th level arcane or divine casters who then start advancing with both types of magic.
Instead of an eldritch knight needing dump levels of fighter or wizard, let them just be single classed and start picking up the other classes abilities.
Fourth, if you just want to have the combination abilities from the start, then the simplest solution will be to create new base classes. That will cut right to the problem rather than trying to rebalance every other class with a new set of multi-classing rules and questions.
Fifth, remember that you simply should not get to do everything two completely different classes do when you multi-class. There has to be something you give up or nobody will ever want to play a regular class. What cost, and it needs to be more than just a single caster level in my estimation, is going to be placed on it?
RPG Superstar 2013
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The current game has plenty of avenues to reward mutliclassed wizards. There are a number of prestige classes that give you combined abilites, and don't take away as much as you'd think. The abjurant champion and raumathari battlemage (FR) are fantastic examples. ALso, if Paizo keeps the current description of specialist abilities as caster level-driven instead of wizard-level driven, multiclassing is very rewarding and something will have ti be done to encourage players to ride wizard or cleric all the way up. As it is now, Eldritch Badass and Exorcist of the Silver Flame are looking perty darn handsome.
Having said that, I do like the feat. It doesn't make the multiclassed caster too powerful, and uses a feat slot. I am not sure I like it if you gain specialist abilities without taking wizard.
I acknowledge that domain abilites ought to go up with caster level instead of cleric level. But I want to take a second look at that, too.
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-> This will hopefully remove partially the need for 'band-aid' Prcs like Eldritch Knight / Mystic Theulage, and allows a fighter/mage hybrid to be more feasible at early levels. But maybe better fixes are possible?
I like those "band aid" PrCs, but I also like your idea. If you slapped them together, you'd probably have the most workable solution. If you want higher BAB/more class features, your idea would work the best. If you wanted raw spellcasting power, the band-aid would work best. If you used both at the same time, the effect would be negligable (assuming you use a 1/3 rate for non-class advancement.) The only problem I see is someone playing a character that advances levels of wizard, cleric, sorcerer, and druid evenly over the course of their career. You'd wind up with someone who could cast as a level 10 wizard, cleric, sorcerer, and druid. Scary.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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I would like to see caster level increase, but not spells per day. One of the main factors nerfing a multi-classes caster isn't the lack of higher level spells, it is the short durations and ease of dispelling. I'd suggest a bump of 1/2 your non-casting level.
Giving out spells per day seems to me to reward dipping far too much (i.e. a 19th level fighter/1st level sorcerer gets an awful lot for neglecting casting, more than a 19th level sorcerer/1st level fighter gets for neglecting fighting).
On a similar note, I wouldn't object to the class level for certain class abilities (turning, smiting, domain spells) getting the same sort of bump. No new abilities, but the ones you have that are level dependent work somewhat better.
Link to SRD: Magic rating variant.ah how did i miss this .it will be used.
I used this in my home-brew game - for anyone unfamiliar Magic Rating is a universal Caster Level rating, but not spells per day as Russ mentioned. It worked extremely well for both a druid/sorcerer/(mystic theurge homebrew) and a druid/wizard.
The druid/wizard made it up to about 6/6 and was still quite pleased with the spell selection, etc. Only 3rd level spells, but cast at 12th level is just about right level of power.
A fighter/wizard suffers a bit more - at 5/5 he would have 2-3 third level spells, at caster level 6. I didn't see one in action, so can't really comment on the balance level. Adjusting the chart to 2/3, 1/3 instead of 1/2, 1/4 might do the job.
In a thread on spell save DC's I mentioned that combining Magic Rating (MR) with making spell DCs = 10 + 1/2 Caster level + Stat mod would basically fix the multi-classing penalty. Weaker spells, but not weaker saves or caster level. Thinking on that further I've been considering that 10 + 1/3 Caster level + stat mod might be better - it would keep pace with the poor saving throws, rather than the good ones.
First, why does a multi-classing caster have to get something? Versatility has to have a price somewhere along the line.
Yeah, I'm not really sure why a spellcaster that takes a level of fighter, or a fighter that dabbles in spellcasting, should be nearly as effective as someone that actually stays in one class their whole career.
I'm played a few Mystic Theurge characters because we've only had a three person party, and I never really expected to be able to hurl Chain Lightnings and Raise Dead spells at easily as if I had stayed a straight sorcerer or cleric.