Lets face it. Even 1st level characters take awhile to make...especially if they are twmplated/Level adjusted/or otherwise not 100% core. Even "normal" Characters can be time consuming to create. That said, a point is soon to be made.
To help "validate" the creation process, as well as the attachment most of us have with our characters, I "created" an...unorthodox houserule.
To help dull the sharp swingy point of sudden death full attack rolls, I allow the party a couple of rounds...determined semi randomly to use a very well rolled heal check to "resuscitate" a technically dead comrade.
I know, I know...it screams abuse and all that, but hear me out. I am a stingy bastard when it comes to gold and loot. Most of my players learn to be content with masterwork quality items until (usually) 7th level. There simply aren't the resources available to raise a character until the magic itself becomes available. The material component is generally VERY painfully felt as well.
To balance this I allowed CPR, or "the breath of life". The first time it happened, when the fighter took a devastating crit from an Orc barbarian, the whole table went quiet. I then explained that the cleric (with healing domain no less) knew of a way to save him, but every second counted. The tactical huddle was awesome. They worked damn hard to get the body away and stall the barbarian long enough to get the fighter back.
Cleric: I need bandages! Tear your cloak!
Sorceror: Uh...ok? What can I do?
Cleric: Hold this bandage...hold it tighter fool!
Sorceror: Why are you pushing on is chest?
Rogue: If this doesn't work, can I...?
Cleric: Do it...pump...pump...and I'll never heal you again.
Rogue: I was just sayin!
The whole aid another mechanic worked out beautifully. The result was a mostly dead fight becoming mostly alive. Mostly, because he was considered exhausted for 24 full hours. No exception. In town, this would be a simple matter of passing time. In the Direwood, it was a good reason to build a fortified camp and care for injured party member.
I realize CPR isn't really keeping with flavor, but it has worked VERY well for our group. The DC is based on the amount of negative HP. Typically, it begins @ 15, +2 for every 5 points of damage below 0. Obviously decapitation of dismemberment will render this technique useless, as will poison or disease without curing the underlying ailment.
Does this sound like a viable houserule? Not for me ;) for PFRPG?
Any thought or opinions will be welcome.
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Lets face it. Even 1st level characters take awhile to make...especially if they are twmplated/Level adjusted/or otherwise not 100% core. Even "normal" Characters can be time consuming to create. That said, a point is soon to be made.
To help "validate" the creation process, as well as the attachment most of us have with our characters, I "created" an...unorthodox houserule.
To help dull the sharp swingy point of sudden death full attack rolls, I allow the party a couple of rounds...determined semi randomly to use a very well rolled heal check to "resuscitate" a technically dead comrade.
I know, I know...it screams abuse and all that, but hear me out. I am a stingy bastard when it comes to gold and loot. Most of my players learn to be content with masterwork quality items until (usually) 7th level. There simply aren't the resources available to raise a character until the magic itself becomes available. The material component is generally VERY painfully felt as well.
To balance this I allowed CPR, or "the breath of life". The first time it happened, when the fighter took a devastating crit from an Orc barbarian, the whole table went quiet. I then explained that the cleric (with healing domain no less) knew of a way to save him, but every second counted. The tactical huddle was awesome. They worked damn hard to get the body away and stall the barbarian long enough to get the fighter back.
Cleric: I need bandages! Tear your cloak!
Sorceror: Uh...ok? What can I do?
Cleric: Hold this bandage...hold it tighter fool!
Sorceror: Why are you pushing on is chest?
Rogue: If this doesn't work, can I...?
Cleric: Do it...pump...pump...and I'll never heal you again.
Rogue: I was just sayin!The whole aid another mechanic worked out beautifully. The result was a mostly dead fight becoming mostly alive. Mostly, because he was considered exhausted for 24 full hours. No exception. In town, this would be a simple matter of passing time. In the Direwood, it was a good reason to...
This could work, but personally, I would like to see some more crunch on this
if it works in you world, I say go for it. In mine Raise Dead and Resurrection are very common (including a semimagical herb that does Raise Dead much cheaper than the spell for low level characters). I know that some people say it takes away from the game, but myself and my players get very attached to their characters. All of us still play with our original characters (and I've been playing almost 20yrs). and I haven't had any problem with it cheapening death. (we play 2E rules so raise dead or resurrection cost a constitution point.)
if it works in you world, I say go for it. In mine Raise Dead and Resurrection are very common (including a semimagical herb that does Raise Dead much cheaper than the spell for low level characters). I know that some people say it takes away from the game, but myself and my players get very attached to their characters. All of us still play with our original characters (and I've been playing almost 20yrs). and I haven't had any problem with it cheapening death. (we play 2E rules so raise dead or resurrection cost a constitution point.)
It's a weird variant, but as I said, it has made for happy players. They at least get a chance to avoid death, and the drama involved in corpse recovery and trying to hit a fairly high DC makes them feel like they have actually accomplished a difficult task.
Peeps still die about 40-60% of the time, but getting dropped by a troll's max damage C/C/B + rend isn't ALWAYS the end of the line. I don't know about you, but I HATE telling players to make a new characters...unless they have earned a messy end, that is.
This subject (death and raising of the dead) is almost certainly going to be the subject of house rules at half the tables in the game, regardless of the version played or rules used. I think PRPG ought to print several alternative rules in a sidebar--this would be a good candidate.
sorry to get off the subject but... Donavon Vig, I think I know you man. You should definately remember who I am, we were room mates at like 3 different locations...anyways how ya been man????? Asuming you are who I think you are :/
sorry to get off the subject but... Donavon Vig, I think I know you man. You should definately remember who I am, we were room mates at like 3 different locations...anyways how ya been man????? Asuming you are who I think you are :/
Lessee...Sioux Falls S.D. mean anything to you?
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Really, it's the issue that you're addressing with this house rule (low-level characters biting it too easily) is the reason for the proposed extra hp in the Alpha rules.
Between extra hp and new methods for healing (see the new Turn Undead, plus the cantrip that allows the cleric to automatically stabilize characters below 0 hp), such a house rule may not be necessary. The telling thing, however, is how often do characters fall below -10 hp with the proposed boost to hp?
Lessee...Sioux Falls S.D. mean anything to you?
I knew it was you right on :P we should figure out a place to go exchange some email addresses!!
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This subject (death and raising of the dead) is almost certainly going to be the subject of house rules at half the tables in the game, regardless of the version played or rules used. I think PRPG ought to print several alternative rules in a sidebar--this would be a good candidate.
I agree. I actually restricted access to Resurrection and such magicks (following the guidelines in an old Dragon Magazine issue), as I prefer to keep a character returning from the dead as an exception, no matter the level or the intricacies of character creation.
Just as for starting HPs, the "sidebar full of options" approach is the best solution.
Back in the early days of 3.0, dragon magazine ran an article about how to make raise and resurrect spells a little less cookie cutter. They proposed actually taking a feat to gain access to those two spells. This only left Reincarnate as a viable option. My players would have rebelled.
This system was a compromise that has worked exceptionally well at my table. It only works about 30-50% of the time due to skill point/DC creep at higher levels. Of course, "resuscitating(sp?)" the fighter after a nasty dragonbreath hit would easily require a DC 50+ heal check. Add that it can only happen out of battle due to the hazards of confronting dragons exhausted, and packing 1hp, plus the short timeframe to implement it (level in rounds).
It works pretty well but it is still just a house rule. Thanks for the feedback, keep it coming!
PS...Smokesalot hit me up at http://www.myspace.com/space_tyrant
message me and we will see who is behind the mask.
In the PF campaign I'm currently in the DM ruled that reaching -10 is not instant death. A character that is knocked to negative 10 or less instead rolls on a percentile chart to see what fate has befallen them. Results range from a permanent loss to an attribute score to losing a limb or eye. On a bad roll the character is truly dead.
We find that this helps cut down on the cheesiness of multiple raised dead spells, but at the same time keep the fear of reaching -10 in place.
In the PF campaign I'm currently in the DM ruled that reaching -10 is not instant death. A character that is knocked to negative 10 or less instead rolls on a percentile chart to see what fate has befallen them. Results range from a permanent loss to an attribute score to losing a limb or eye. On a bad roll the character is truly dead.
We find that this helps cut down on the cheesiness of multiple raised dead spells, but at the same time keep the fear of reaching -10 in place.
Good idea. The plan is to try and keep players alive, but keep the resurrection mill approach to mid-high level play somewhat restrained. Personally, I would rather that Raise cost one attribute point, while resurrection cost a level. Only true resurrection could bring one back whole...hence the pricetag.
This is interesting, but not the way I went at all.
I actually restricted raise dead and ressurection.
Raise dead only works on characters above 5th level and Ressurrection only works on characters above 10th level. Below this you are simply not worthy of the gods notice.
It hasn't really effected my PC's very often. generally below 5th level you can't afford to raise dead anyway. It does allow me to explain how the wealthy NPC can die without being raise.
I think making raise dead easier or harder depends on your stlye of game and your players. The amount of magic and wealth avaliable and the general tone you want to set. I don't think this is something that should be set out in the mechanics. I think this must be handle on a campaign by campaign bases.
Tried that in the beginning, but 90% of our TPK/Permanent character death came between levels 3-5 and 12-15. Past that point it is mainly a question of build, you are either invincible - or not. The upper range has death as an inconvenience only. The lower range has VERY limited options.
Another counterbalance would be to remove the XP loss component. And replace it with an even more costly material one. Problem is, then higher level characters will abuse it...they are swimming in gold.
It's a difficult mechanic to get right. Anyone else have a better houserule for death?
PS...Smokesalot hit me up at http://www.myspace.com/space_tyrant
message me and we will see who is behind the mask.
It wont let me you need to add me as a friend first
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The whole aid another mechanic worked out beautifully. The result was a mostly dead fight becoming mostly alive. Mostly, because he was considered exhausted for 24 full hours. No exception. In town, this would be a simple matter of passing time. In the Direwood, it was a good reason to...
I dont know. Most primitive cultures have taboos about that sort of thing...
"They brought him back from the dead...without a High ranking cleric present!" The gathered peasants were horrified at what they were hearing.
I really like the idea by orcdoubleax of limiting access to resurrection magic to higher level characters. This could really help to explain why NPCs don't tend to get raised. It would help with the verisimilitude of the game world. It might also fit well some of the many PCs who have a murderered parent, lover, or sibling as part of their backstory.
I also like sysane's idea of having other consequences for defeat besides death. I'm imagining something with Fort saves and nasty results similar to some of the stuff in Paizo's crtical hit deck but worse. Maybe an "alternate death and maiming system" would work better as an add on than part of the core mechanics though.
Anyhow, one house rule I've always played with is death at -CON. This can help prevent a lot of low level deaths without raising the power level of the party much or requiring any new game mechanics. I've also sometimes seen DMs let any Cure spell cast within 1 round of a character's "death" save them if it heals them back up above -CON. I guess the idea is that though you've been stabbed through the heart the cleric saves you in the nick of time. I'd probably require a Fort save for this if I allowed it.
A simple system I've come to like is the "Fate and Fame" points one of my DMs uses. Every character starts with 1d4 of each (I'd probably make this 1d3+1 or a flat 3). A fame point allows you to reroll a die. The DM in question allows the fate points to be used as a "get out of jail free" card in various ways, the most important of which is you can avoid death.
problem with fate and hero points is that they tend to get used in clusters at certain points in the campaign. Soon, players tend to feel that they are just crutches to get through the expected tough parts of the adventure, when they should be there to pull off the epic super cool stuff needed to bring down a BBEG.
Here is something I posted elsewhere:
I added a house rule with -10 = death.
On BBEG turn he hits you for massive damage. You go to -23. You have the next initive.. you bleed to -24.. yes you bleed. The party has until your next go to bring you above -10 or you die.
Essentially... this is your death gurgle. Sure... a cure serious will get you fine. But.. is the cleric within 30 feet? Will he survive the attack of opportunity? So far.. I've had.. two or three players continue living because of this rule. But, it really hasn't come in issue too often.
Actually.. one was something around -40ish... and they basically spent the round healing the character. Which gave the baddies a free round... puts them quite the spot.
Essentially, even at lower levels, the party has the next round to heal you to bring you back up no matter what the damage was.
Lets face it. Even 1st level characters take awhile to make...especially if they are twmplated/Level adjusted/or otherwise not 100% core.
I wouldn't say that 1st-level characters take that long - at least not the mechanical part, and the flavour part can't be helped.
I'd say, though, that templated and/or level adjusted characters aren't first-level characters.
I'd say 10 minutes, or 15 in case you have to select spells. And that's a genuine player character. NPCs I'd say 5.
To help dull the sharp swingy point of sudden death full attack rolls, I allow the party a couple of rounds...determined semi randomly to use a very well rolled heal check to "resuscitate" a technically dead comrade.
I don't want it as standard, but it would make a good optional rule.
I'd put a further limit onto it, though. So standard rule is "-10 means dead", so I'd say that you can bring someone back if he's down to no more than -20, or maybe even -30 (i.e twice or three times the death limit).
I'd do this because you just can't bring back a frikkin' goulash. You could also take a less specific approach and say that the body needs to be generally whole, but I think that specific rules will prevent a lot of bad blood and spilled tears on the game table.
I agree that it's not that crazy for characters with high bonuses in heal and proficiency in curative magic to know how to get someone's heart pumping again.
I'd even go as far as creating a relatively low-level spell that grants you a bonus to heal checks to bring someone back to life. Turn your hands into defibrilators. Spark of Life.
Feh! Resurrection should be harder to obtain, not easier. And extra hit points aren't the answer, either, nor are hero points.
A good DM will tailor each encounter for the skill of his players and for the relative power of their characters. Characters by definition are never too weak - but sometimes DMs are. If your PCs are dying too often and can't spend more than 15 minutes in the dungeon, then your encounters are too tough.
It's not precisely the same topic, but I hadn't seen it mentioned yet...
Breath of Life - Clr 5
- Cures 5d8 + level (max 25).
"Breath of life can bring recently slain creatures back to life. If cast upon a creature that has died within 1 round, apply the healing from this spell to the creature. If this healing brings the creature up to –9 or fewer hit points, it comes back to life and stabilizes at its new hit point total."
A good DM will tailor each encounter for the skill of his players and for the relative power of their characters.
Not always, he won't. He'll have difficult and easy encounters as well.
Plus, no matter how bespoke the encounters are, there's always bad luck, and the DM can't/ shouldn't always fumble that away.
An already hurt character might find himself on the blunt end of a critical hit, or fumble on his save against a spell that rolled well, and end up as a corpse even though he didn't behave like an idiot and the DM didn't bury the characters in enemies.
I don't mind if that character has at least a chance to be saved. It wouldn't be automatic, or even easy, but it could work.
Characters by definition are never too weak - but sometimes DMs are. If your PCs are dying too often and can't spend more than 15 minutes in the dungeon, then your encounters are too tough.
Characters can be too weak, and so can players. Sometimes, they die too often because they just behave like idiots, and are spent after 15 minutes because they don't conserve their resources. "A goblin! METEOR SWARM FOLLED BY QUICKENED METEOR SWARM!"