The Rogue Test


Races & Classes

Liberty's Edge

When WotC released a sneak peak at the 4E Rogue, my first thought was some of my all-time favorite Rogue PCs. From what I saw of the 4E Rogue, none of them could be created wth those rules.

So no we have Pathfinder rules, can they be made with these rules.
Yes, they can and they can be made better.

I had to multiclass several of them to create the character I had in mind, but with Pathfider rules, I was able to create them as a single class 10th level Rogue.

I did break one rule though, that Rogue Talents cannot be be selected more than once. I would suggest that Combat Trick, Minor/Major Magic and Weapon Training be available multiple times.

One of my old PCs was a Archer, but more sniper than Legolas. Where I previously had to go Rogue/Fighter or the feats, here I just took 4 Combat Tricks for Archery feats, a few more from the normal feats and Crippling Strike and now we have a very dangerous and stealthy Archer.

Another was the first 3E character I played, a Rogue/ Sorcerer. Here I took the Minor/ Major Magic talents multiple times and combined them with Dispelling Attack and Arcane Strike, and I created a very Grey Mouser-like PC.

Now the next one was one of my all time favorite PCs, an AD&D dual class Human Thief/ Illusionist. The ability to endow his Rapier with Arcane Bond and the Illusion school abilities would make him a very fun swashbuckler to play again.

I have to say that Pathfinder does make me wish I had an active game right now and the time to play. These rules are inspiring, they make me want to start all over again at 1st level.

Dark Archive

Dark Lurker of Psionics wrote:
I did break one rule though, that Rogue Talents cannot be be selected more than once. I would suggest that Combat Trick, Minor/Major Magic and Weapon Training be available multiple times.

Interestingly enough, I feel that Combat Trick and Minor/Major Magic are exactly the talents that should not be available multiple times. Getting combat trick more than once really impinges on the fighter's bonus feats schtick. And having a lot of magic in a straight rogue just doesn't feel right to me. But thats just my opinion on the subject.

Nice to see that you were able to create some interesting characters though!


I share the opinion of TK342 : taking the same rogue talent multiple times really makes the Rogue too strong !!

Liberty's Edge

OK, I went back and re-did the PCs, but this time I multi-classed them; 5/5.

Dropping the Rogue to 5th level, he losses;
2 Rogue Talents
1 Advanced Talent
Improved Uncanny Dodge
+2d6 sneak attack damage
+2 Trapsense
Reduced Reflex save

Taking 5 levels of Fighter gains;
Weapon & Armor Proficiencies
3 bonus feats
Armor Training
Weapon Training
Improved Base Attack Bonus
Improved Fortitude save

So my archer can keep the four archery feats (3 fighter + 1 Combat Trick) and still take another Rogue Talent. So yes, this version is a better warrior, but a much worse Sniper. The +1 to hit/ to damage all the time is good, but since most of his sniper shots will be when Sneak Attack applies (and it now applies to all targets), I would rather have the +2d6 bonus.

The Magical Rogue gains much as a 5th level Wizard;
Arcane Bond
Cantrips
3 School powers
Scribe Scroll
Bonus feat
Improved Will save
Spells: 4/3/2/1

This does not relect the character concept at all. I want a Rogue that could have been a great wizard if given a chance. His magic seeps out with his Minor/major magic talents and his feats. Being able to cast two cantrips twice a day in no match to unlimited casting of cantrips.

Basically what I want here is the ability to touch on an aspect of another class without having to multi-class and then losing out on what your main class offers. I want the two PCs above to be Rogues first and foremost, but rogues with a singular combat expertise or a little magical talent.

I used to have my "Company of Half-Elves", an adventuring party that allowed me to fill any role in a new game that was needed. The Cleric was a priestess of Tymora and to represent her "letting everything go to chance" in battle, she took a level of Barbarian. The Rage was her leaving it to luck, but it did cost her a couple of levels of Cleric (the Uncanny Dodge and Trapsense +1 were also an aspect of Luck).

One complaint many have about 3rd edition is the "need" to multi-class or go to a prestige class. There are many Prestige class options that could be built into the classes as options similar to the Rogue Talents.


Noir le Lotus wrote:
I share the opinion of TK342 : taking the same rogue talent multiple times really makes the Rogue too strong !!

Seriously?

Spending mid and high-level class features to get 1st level spells is a joke.

Considering that fighter feats in general are wildly underpowered, getting one every other level is also a joke, but I understand if people want to give the Fighter class something. The fact that the Rogue is the only usable "warrior" class, he might as well get the option of taking fighter feats.


combat trick I'm not so sure of...Minor/Major magic doesn't seem to be much of a problem.

Really they are zero and first level spells...hell I think they should change them to 1st and 2nd respectively...maybe higher.


Dark Lurker of Psionics wrote:

When WotC released a sneak peak at the 4E Rogue, my first thought was some of my all-time favorite Rogue PCs. From what I saw of the 4E Rogue, none of them could be created wth those rules.

So no we have Pathfinder rules, can they be made with these rules.
Yes, they can and they can be made better.

So you've seen the finished product?


David Jackson 60 wrote:

combat trick I'm not so sure of...Minor/Major magic doesn't seem to be much of a problem.

Really they are zero and first level spells...hell I think they should change them to 1st and 2nd respectively...maybe higher.

Multiple selections of combat trick (1 per 2 levels) plus sneak attack would trump the fighter (who gets 1 feat per 2 levels as his main class ability).

Allowing only one selection of combat trick (and the advance rogue talent of a feat) is better balanced.

Still, I feel that the rogue may be too good. I hope to test this during the playtest I have planned this weakend and see whether my inital judgement is right or wrong.


Thraxus wrote:
David Jackson 60 wrote:

combat trick I'm not so sure of...Minor/Major magic doesn't seem to be much of a problem.

Really they are zero and first level spells...hell I think they should change them to 1st and 2nd respectively...maybe higher.

Multiple selections of combat trick (1 per 2 levels) plus sneak attack would trump the fighter (who gets 1 feat per 2 levels as his main class ability).

Allowing only one selection of combat trick (and the advance rogue talent of a feat) is better balanced.

Still, I feel that the rogue may be too good. I hope to test this during the playtest I have planned this weakend and see whether my inital judgement is right or wrong.

Yea, that's why I said I'm not sure about that one...the rogue has good damage output and ability to his most cases without extra feats on top of what he already has.


I like the idea of the Rogue being able to take those feats multiple times. Sure it may be a little "fighter type", but I feel it goes towards fixing Rogue to be more balanced at higher levels. Overall the power level seems pretty good, you don't have to take magic if you don't want, but if you do you can. Works for me.

Skester

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