Watch Season 6 Episode 9, "Free Hat".
Replace George Lucas and Steven Spielberg with Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast.
Replace "movies" with "D&D 4th Edition".
Replace the melting, soul-dissolving victims with WotC Staff and 4E players.
Discuss here.
OP's NOTE: Was bored, watched a randomly chosen South Park episode with my wife, and me and her quickly related it to 4th Edition about halfway through it. I figured it'd be an interesting discussion. Take into account what the episode is trying to state and discuss, whether you agree or disagree, with such statements in relation to 4th Edition D&D. I personally like the part where they state how "an artform, when given to society, belongs to society and the creator should leave it alone and not mess with it".
"huff, huff... if I can only... just grasp.... those.. straws...." *critical fumble*
But I think if you apply that to things like games you get some inconsitencies. Does that mean that once I've finished work on a game and released it I should never be modified?
Doesn't that mean I can't add to it with new rules in following supplements? Can I send out or even suggest errata?
Isn't then the South Park episode also saying 3.5, 3.0, 2nd edition, and anything else that is not the original was a bad idea too?
I see some points of comparison, but I think it would more appropriate if they were "reprinting" the Original D&D game with modifications that make it so much better. I felt the episode, from my shoddy memory, was talking about trying to take something from the past that was good and trying to make it better by effectively slapping a coat of paint on it and such.
I don't see 4th edition as D&D remastered, I see it more like a remake or a sequel to the previous D&D. It should be better in that they take the things they learned previously and apply them to their new project.
I don't see 4th edition as D&D remastered, I see it more like a remake or a sequel to the previous D&D. It should be better in that they take the things they learned previously and apply them to their new project.
I think the best comparison is to the new StarTrek Movie that they're doing. It has new actors playing clasic characters, story that isn't cannon, and isn't geared toward the diehard fans, but at attracting new fans at the expense of loosing their base. And it will most likely be a miserable failure.
Watch Season 6 Episode 9, "Free Hat".
Replace George Lucas and Steven Spielberg with Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast.
Replace "movies" with "D&D 4th Edition".
Replace the melting, soul-dissolving victims with WotC Staff and 4E players.Discuss here.
OP's NOTE: Was bored, watched a randomly chosen South Park episode with my wife, and me and her quickly related it to 4th Edition about halfway through it. I figured it'd be an interesting discussion. Take into account what the episode is trying to state and discuss, whether you agree or disagree, with such statements in relation to 4th Edition D&D. I personally like the part where they state how "an artform, when given to society, belongs to society and the creator should leave it alone and not mess with it".
Minus the fact that no one at WotC was involved with the creation of D&D from the begining.
But I think if you apply that to things like games you get some inconsitencies. Does that mean that once I've finished work on a game and released it I should never be modified?
Modified, Yes. Scrapped every five years and started over, No!
Doesn't that mean I can't add to it with new rules in following supplements? Can I send out or even suggest errata?
Errata is compatiable with the game system. 4E isn't compatiable with any other version of D&D ever!
Isn't then the South Park episode also saying 3.5, 3.0, 2nd edition, and anything else that is not the original was a bad idea too?
Basic through 2E were all compatiable. 3.0 and 3.5 were compatialbe with a little work. 4E might as well be Rifts or some other game system. WotC has said that they will not release any conversion, because the games are night and day.
I see some points of comparison, but I think it would more appropriate if they were "reprinting" the Original D&D game with modifications that make it so much better. I felt the episode, from my shoddy memory, was talking about trying to take something from the past that was good and trying to make it better by effectively slapping a coat of paint on it and such.
More like burning down a barn, clearing the land, building a tacobell and then telling everyone it's still a barn.
I don't see 4th edition as D&D remastered, I see it more like a remake or a sequel to the previous D&D.
A bad sequel written by a director who never saw the original movie, and then decided that they were going to put their own vision on screen. But with a few little tweeks: Kill off all the main characters, scrap the world and start over. It would be like having Lord of the Rings redone by Tim Burton and then saying that even though it looks nothing like the books, it's really what Mr. Tolkien would have wanted.
The thread that shouldn't live, and yet by unholy power it does! Tremble!
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Basic through 2E were all compatiable. 3.0 and 3.5 were compatialbe with a little work. 4E might as well be Rifts or some other game system. WotC has said that they will not release any conversion, because the games are night and day.
They were semi-compatible. As time passed things were more and more difficult to reconcile.
A bad sequel written by a director who never saw the original movie, and then decided that they were going to put their own vision on screen. But with a few little tweeks: Kill off all the main characters, scrap the world and start over. It would be like having Lord of the Rings redone by Tim Burton and then saying that even though it looks nothing like the books, it's really what Mr. Tolkien would have wanted.
Except for not seeing the original movie, that sounds remarkably like The Two Towers and The Return of the King.
A bad sequel written by a director who never saw the original movie, and then decided that they were going to put their own vision on screen. But with a few little tweeks: Kill off all the main characters, scrap the world and start over. (...)
4E D&D is like the Flash Gordon (2007) Sci Fi Channel version of the iconic space hero Flash Gordon.
Oh yes, I went there.
4E D&D is like the re-imagining of Battlestar Galactica.
:D
You're not still mad that "chick Starbuck" is way more awesome than "dude Starbuck" are you?4E D&D is like the re-imagining of Battlestar Galactica.
:D
Hmph, YES! Katy Sackhoff is no Dirk Benedict! Starbuck is supposed to be a guy! **rabble, rabble!!!***
Heh! =)
(I think the thing is... I wanted to *be* Dirk B's ultra-cool Starbuck, and I'd never even remotely consider dating Katy's Starbuck... so there you go...)
You're not still mad that "chick Starbuck" is way more awesome than "dude Starbuck" are you?4E D&D is like the re-imagining of Battlestar Galactica.
:D
Not mad at all, I like the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica, in the same way I like what I've seen of 4E. It was a jokey rebuttal.
Both Starbucks are awesome.
Both Starbucks are awesome.
But I wouldn't date either of them.
This is true. Katee rather reminds me of an ex. She was blond and scary too.
I think that's one of the strengths of the character (and the actress). She manages to be a strong, interesting, attention-grabbing character without relying on sex appeal. Basically, Katee Sackhoff (and Starbuck) force you to pay attention to her on HER terms, not yours as the male viewer.
QFT
You're not still mad that "chick Starbuck" is way more awesome than "dude Starbuck" are you?4E D&D is like the re-imagining of Battlestar Galactica.
:D
Hmph, YES! Katy Sackhoff is no Dirk Benedict! Starbuck is supposed to be a guy! **rabble, rabble!!!***
Heh! =)
(I think the thing is... I wanted to *be* Dirk B's ultra-cool Starbuck, and I'd never even remotely consider dating Katy's Starbuck... so there you go...)
I read an article by Dirk Benedict about the new Starbuck not long after the new BG aired.
To put it mildly, he was not amused. :)
Modified, Yes. Scrapped every five years and started over, No!
...
What? Huh?
I was arguing just that the South Park episode message doesn't match what is happening to 4th edition.
I am confused why you drove by and starting screaming "4E sucks!" when I wasn't even saying it was good or saying anything of quality?
1.) Modified, Yes. Scrapped every five years and started over, No!
2.) Errata is compatiable with the game system. 4E isn't compatiable with any other version of D&D ever!
Basic through 2E were all compatiable. 3.0 and 3.5 were compatialbe with a little work. 4E might as well be Rifts or some other game system. WotC has said that they will not release any conversion, because the games are night and day.
3.)More like burning down a barn, clearing the land, building a tacobell and then telling everyone it's still a barn.
4.)A bad sequel written by a director who never saw the original movie, and then decided that they were going to put their own vision on screen. But with a few little tweeks: Kill off all the main characters, scrap the world and start over. It would be like having Lord of the Rings redone by Tim Burton and then saying that even though it looks nothing like the books, it's really what Mr. Tolkien would have wanted.
The 4Reasons...dude you nailed it.
Tim Burton doesn't need to do that, Peter Jackson got there first.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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(I think the thing is... I wanted to *be* Dirk B's ultra-cool Starbuck, and I'd never even remotely consider dating Katy's Starbuck... so there you go...)I think that's one of the strengths of the character (and the actress). She manages to be a strong, interesting, attention-grabbing character without relying on sex appeal. Basically, Katee Sackhoff (and Starbuck) force you to pay attention to her on HER terms, not yours as the male viewer.
Contrast that to Tricia Helfer (Six) or Grace Park (Sharon), both of whom just radiate sex appeal. When Grace Park is in the scene, my brain turns to mush and I don't really catch what's going on because of her.
I can't believe I'm hearing this... Katee Sackhoff is the hottest thing about new BSG!!! Heathens, the lot of you!
Sharon, I'm not seeing at all. Six, of course yes. Starbuck, sexy as hell. And Katee Sackhoff's version isn't too bad either. ;D
Modified, Yes. Scrapped every five years and started over, No!
...What? Huh?
I was arguing just that the South Park episode message doesn't match what is happening to 4th edition.
I am confused why you drove by and starting screaming "4E sucks!" when I wasn't even saying it was good or saying anything of quality?
There are tons of similarities. D&D 1E through 3E evolved not only in rules, but it's story and setting. 3rd Edition designers did the smart thing and kept practically 90% of previous editions history and lore and mechanics and KEPT it in 3rd Edition, meshing it with the new rules system. Which, I believe, they have done almost perfectly.
4th Edition is scrapping Gygaxian D&D and starting D&D from scratch and still calling it D&D (and the Forgotten Realms, too). That's no different than taking what they did with Star Wars or taking, say, Lord of the Rings and making all the characters do Matrix-stunts during their battles and talking in hip-hop ebonics just to attract a new generation of people for the money.
D&D is an artform, and a different perspective of that art in every D&D gaming group out there. For WotC to screw with that ideal is purely sound business decision, but destroyed what D&D is really about and corrupted the spirit of the game entirely.
Sigh. You have Pathfinder now. Quit ragging on 4E and relax.
Sigh. You have Pathfinder now. Quit ragging on 4E and relax.
Don't sweat it Fabes. The best revenge is to play 4E and love it! ;)
Cheers! :)
4th Edition is scrapping Gygaxian D&D and starting D&D from scratch and still calling it D&D (and the Forgotten Realms, too). That's no different than taking what they did with Star Wars or taking, say, Lord of the Rings and making all the characters do Matrix-stunts during their battles and talking in hip-hop ebonics just to attract a new generation of people for the money.
But the South Park episode was dealing with taking the original movies and updating them with new graphics not the sequels.
Whatever. Believe what you want.
I just realized that I am literally sitting here debating whether to just fold the triangle on the Paizo 4e board until Keep on the Shadowfell comes out, or to start a new thread examining how Bugs Bunny, on the other hand, endorses the idea that 4e might not be all bad.
Time to go do something not Internet related, I think. ;)
Sigh. You have Pathfinder now. Quit ragging on 4E and relax.
You have this misunderstanding that just because Paizo is doing Pathfinder, that we're not still pissed about what WotC is doing with 4E. I'm glad that you're happy to hop on the 4E bandwagon and ride it over whatever cliff Hasbro wants to take it over, but many of us aren't going to sit quietly by and watch it go. I have 20 yrs of my life invested in this game, and I'm pissed that their changing the core world and FR. And for is great as Pathfinder is, I haven't spent years reading over a hundred and fifty books comming to love FR. So if you don't want to listen to people rage about 4E, here's a suggestion, avoid any post labled "4E is a bad idea"!
You can keep playing 3.5e. Indeed many people still play 1e and 2e and decry 3.0 and 3.5 as exactly the sort of thing you see in 4e. A visit to Dragonsfoot could prove illuminating.
It's so hard round here to have a civil conversation; it's just bile heaped on insult when there could be discussion.
Sigh. You have Pathfinder now. Quit ragging on 4E and relax.You have this misunderstanding that just because Paizo is doing Pathfinder, that we're not still pissed about what WotC is doing with 4E. I'm glad that you're happy to hop on the 4E bandwagon and ride it over whatever cliff Hasbro wants to take it over, but many of us aren't going to sit quietly by and watch it go. I have 20 yrs of my life invested in this game, and I'm pissed that their changing the core world and FR. And for is great as Pathfinder is, I haven't spent years reading over a hundred and fifty books comming to love FR. So if you don't want to listen to people rage about 4E, here's a suggestion, avoid any post labled "4E is a bad idea"!
Except, you're one of the few that thinks its a bad idea. I dont think that Wizards is riding anything over a cliff.
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Ahhh the everpresent -new edition- debates . . . .
I remember attempting to "fight the good fight" for 2nd edition when third edition came out. Doomed.
Nevertheless I eventually converted to 3.5 when it came out as it fixed many things which were "broken" with WotC's professed panacea to 2nd edition ills. I too have invested 20 years into this game ... since I was 8. Passed on from Cousin down unto cousin until the d20 rolled into my hands.
I digress.
The 4th edition fanboys can tar and feather me for this, I suppose, but there was at least strengths to the reasoning for d20 system's creation, and I could see that even in my fury over the lack of respect for customers that I felt the reloads were.
There is almost no redeeming quality to Hasbro's push for 4th edition. I remember overhearing a conversation about a plan to make a "newer" edition every decade or so from a regional manager back when I worked at the Wizards of the Coast store.
Welcome to the scam people. I've been waiting for this since the Hasbro acquisition years ago. I also predicted they would run the stores into the ground and close them out. This is exactly what happened, depriving gamers across the country of an excellent environment of customer-friendly service and RPGA-compliant events.
They scrapped the LANs, they Scrapped the RPGs, and then they even stopped selling CCG's & Warhammer, until the whole complex had to shut down. This I predicted the second I heard of the Hasbro acquisition, and thus far, every prediction I have made for the last six years has come true.
My advice? Do what the holdouts from 2nd edition did/do: Convert and cannibalize what you can, continue to run your own games.
Build libraries, establish clubs at local high schools and colleges. D&D as we know it has gone underground before, so this is not the first time. Play Pathfinder. Modify Pathfinder. If Necessity is the mother of Invention, Desperation is the father of Innovation. In the 70's & 80's we as gamers had to fear persecution for our hobby due to misguided parental zeal and hysteria. Now, the enemy is the Imperialist Soulless Corporate Juggernaut. Now, as then, the solution lies in your own hands. Unite, organize, publish your own works. As the late Mr. Gygax has and would say, "Your imagination holds the keys to many doors. You have but to turn them"
Slainte.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Wow, you're going to be a dick about 4e even after Paizo stays 3.5 in order to drive away the remaining people who are ambivalent about 4e and/or thinking about staying with 3.paizo and 4e. Great work trying to cement Paizo's reputation as the unfriendly anti-4e grognard community.
Way to stay classy 4e-haters.
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Wow, you're going to be a dick about 4e even after Paizo stays 3.5 in order to drive away the remaining people who are ambivalent about 4e and/or thinking about staying with 3.paizo and 4e. Great work trying to cement Paizo's reputation as the unfriendly anti-4e grognard community.
Way to stay classy 4e-haters.
At least I refrained from actual sophomoric insults.
Talk to me about classy when you can follow this board's policies.Actually what I provided is a reasoned and well-considered response of what those who are frustrated by 4E can do instead of flaming or engaging in these infantile arguments.
But then, it's very clear you actually READ what I wrote and didn't ascribe tones and your own baggage where none was intended or present.
Bravo, you are a shining example of your peer group.
And DudeMonkey, I will simply say thus: If that is "The Way things go" these days, it is only because we as Consumers and fans ALLOW it to be so. It is not necessarily how the the way things SHOULD be.
RPGs are NOT Operating Systems, Wizards is not Microsoft, and EVERY gamer out there can continue to function with existing product. The problem with constant updates and new publications and frankly, sheer GREED is that the Publisher (wizards) MAKES these systems overly clunky, rather than developing Settings. The result is the same as TSR, just inversely. In the TSR days, an overabundance of settings cost the company, and led to detriment of the hobby. Now, an overabundance of SYSTEMS leads to a detriment to the consumer, and the hobby is becoming very expensive indeed. Needlessly so.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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At least I refrained from actual sophomoric insults.
Talk to me about classy when you can follow this board's policies.Actually what I provided is a reasoned and well-considered response of what those who are frustrated by 4E can do instead of flaming or engaging in these infantile arguments.
But then, it's very clear you actually READ what I wrote and didn't ascribe tones and your own baggage where none was intended or present.
Bravo, you are a shining example of your peer group.
I don't even know who you are much less what you said. I could read it, but I don't really care enough to do so anymore. But thanks for the shout out.
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I don't even know who you are much less what you said. I could read it, but I don't really care enough to do so anymore. But thanks for the shout out.
At least I refrained from actual sophomoric insults.
Talk to me about classy when you can follow this board's policies.Actually what I provided is a reasoned and well-considered response of what those who are frustrated by 4E can do instead of flaming or engaging in these infantile arguments.
But then, it's very clear you actually READ what I wrote and didn't ascribe tones and your own baggage where none was intended or present.
Bravo, you are a shining example of your peer group.
Then you recognize you are not keeping up with the topic and are probably pouring oil on an otherwise dying fire?
Just wanted you to be clear if counterproductivity was your goal.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Then you recognize you are not keeping up with the topic and are probably pouring oil on an otherwise dying fire?Just wanted you to be clear if counterproductivity was your goal.
Sure, why not. That was my goal. I am duly shamed and will henceforth post only non-inflammatory comments.
Oh wait...no I won't...
Having just been through almost a year of my primary web community tearing itself apart over 4e, I guess I'm just a little over sensitive about getting the hate threads going again, particularly by the same old cast of characters. But thanks for chiming in, I'm sure I'll grow to ignore your posts in time too.
Nevermind the growing to ignore them, I'll just start right now. I'm done with you. Go get an avatar if you're going to be part of the community. Or just go away. I'm fairly indifferent between the two.
I think it's time you two stopped arguing, manned up and got into the Butter Vat of Gore!
Two men enter!
Two men *leave!
*although decidedly glossier and more edible smelling.
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I think it's time you two stopped arguing, manned up and got into the Butter Vat of Gore!
Two men enter!
Two men *leave!
*although decidedly glossier and more edible smelling.
LOL
I like that. Sounds like I plan. I'm not going to get worked up over a messageboard posting. Thanks for the Comic-Relief Jade.
Sebastian, so we're clear, no hard feelings. Ignore my posts if you like, but try not to be so sensitive to the 4E bashing that you fail to see there are reconcilers and "high-road" walkers on both sides.
My goal is to empathize and foster acceptance and productive discussion. Not rhetoric and flaming. I will be happy to work with you and very much can see your side. Can you meet me halfway here, as I speak with my "like minded".
By all means, it might help if you read what it was that I wrote. I have seen the "armed camps" mentality before, and it is never productive to EITHER side, which was more or less my point.
I am very much looking forwards to stripping what I need from 4E for my own purposes, much as I did with 3.0 and 2nd. The Gorgeous (then new) Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting was a bonus, as were all the maps and articles. I will say this, as much as I ethically disapprove of methods in which these things occur, I certainly enjoy reaping some fringe-benefits while I am at it. Heck, we are even starting plot lines to bridge the cosmology and deific pantheon changes in our running 3.5 games... it's alot of fun!
Let's be better than civil . . . I am sure we have more common ground than you realize.
"Rage, Rage against the dying of the light..."
I've heard it all before - 2nd Edition, D20, 3.5, yadda yadda. IMO, Hackmaster is the true successor to D&D. All other incarnations of the game, since AD&D, have been devolutions.
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"Rage, Rage against the dying of the light..."
I've heard it all before - 2nd Edition, D20, 3.5, yadda yadda. IMO, Hackmaster is the true successor to D&D. All other incarnations of the game, since AD&D, have been devolutions.
LOL Spoken like Teflon Billy Himself, SH.
But do you have -ALL- those mammoth monstrous compendiums? LOL
I tried to lift all of my monstrous compendiums once.
Once.
::rolls himself away on a wheeled TV tray.::
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...Does [sic] that mean I can't add to it with new rules in following supplements? Can I send out or even suggest errata?...
I think the real problem many have with 4e is that it's virtually a completely different game from v3.5 and back. From what I've seen, it's so different form 'traditional' D&D that WotC could have branded it under a different name and successfully marketed it as an alternative game to D&D.
Just my opinion.
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...Does [sic] that mean I can't add to it with new rules in following supplements? Can I send out or even suggest errata?...I think the real problem many have with 4e is that it's virtually a completely different game from v3.5 and back. From what I've seen, it's so different form 'traditional' D&D that WotC could have branded it under a different name and successfully marketed it as an alternative game to D&D.
Just my opinion.
Ahh but then not as many people would buy it!!! ;-) Therein lies the hook..
I am hoping my fears are wrong and I am just being a prematurely old curmudgeon at my whole 27 years of youth. I am hoping 4th edition is somewhat more compatible with 3.5 than we've been given to believe.
I also hope for world peace and a cease of unrest abroad, and a dramatic improvement in our economy.
Andrew, you summed up my number one concern right there. There's a reason Playstation 3's and Xbox 360's tout backwards-compatibility. No one wants to hear that their often numerous and expense investments have been callously filed away into obsolescence.
Eesh, don't call yourself a curmudgeon, you're younger than me. *grabs pipe and slippers*
Seriously Razz...the more I read your posts the more I want to play 4E just to piss you off.
The same way I enjoy red meat more that I really do because of activist vegetarians.