RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I don't think that Dodge is Lame. +1 to AC is always a good thing and I think the PFRPG treatment is how I always envisioned Dodge to be.
Personally I always thought the old version of Dodge was very Lame and the only time I ever took it was if I needed it for a latter Feat or PrC.
As long as Dodge is not a Combat Feat, (with only one a turn)
a strait up plus 1 to AC is cool really with all the extra feats you will get
I understand it being a combat feat if you go 15 opponents it works on em all. much better then just one.may be a lesser doge feat to keep yall happy
If it's kept a combat feat how about a bigger bonus?
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As long as Dodge is not a Combat Feat, (with only one a turn)
a strait up plus 1 to AC is cool really with all the extra feats you will get
I like it being a combat feat how can you dodge all opponents AND use say mobility or spring attack with out lessening your concentration, I think it is very realistic and simple.
Dodge is lame.
I mean, it's really really terrible.
-Frank
Much of its value comes from it being a pre-requisite for so many good skills later.
Secondly - If it's going to be part of this "one per round" crud, then make it a bonus good against all attacks. It's a useless addition otherwise.
well they did .alpha dodge is a combat feat because the +1 works agisnt all opponent . dont matter if its one or 100 ya get it on all of them.
Much of its value comes from it being a pre-requisite for so many good skills later.
That isn't value. Thats penalizing you for wanting feats that are actually useful. Taking a bad feat for a good reward later on is bad design. Among many other things, it actually hurts your character if you're actually leveling up , and doesn't matter much at all if you're just making a level 15 uber-munchkin from scratch.
Really, if there are first level spells that can replicate the feat (and do it better), it probably isn't a good feat.
Taking a bad feat for a good reward later on is bad design.
I disagree -- what it is, is an inevitable consequence of the lack of "tiered" feats. Because they all cost one (1) slot, but some are better than others, the only way to balance them is by applying near-worthless "gateway" feats. A point-buy system would eliminate this problem, but then we'd be playing GURPS instead of D&D.
Dodge is lame. +1 AC until your next turn is super lame for a Feat. Dodge could also add to your tumble check. In fact, dodge sounds more like turning Tumble into some kind of Feat. Perhaps merging the Feat and the Skill or adding bonuses to both for having them both.
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Taking a bad feat for a good reward later on is bad design.I disagree -- what it is, is an inevitable consequence of the lack of "tiered" feats. Because they all cost one (1) slot, but some are better than others, the only way to balance them is by applying near-worthless "gateway" feats. A point-buy system would eliminate this problem, but then we'd be playing GURPS instead of D&D.
Not at all. It isn't a consequence of not tiering the feats (especially since I'd say they are tiered currently- dodge to mobility to something actually useful, for example, is pretty much the definition of a tier, since you climb up to increasingly better stuff), anymore then its an 'inevitable' consequence.
It is, however, a consequence of making crappy feats and good feats, and not bothering to balance them in any way. And of feat chains, which simply weren't a good idea from the get-go. Its a problem that appears repeatedly through 3rd edition design- you have to pay good stuff later by being crappy now. Probably is, in many campaigns, you never actually get to 'later, when you're good', you just have to deal with being kind of sucky for the duration of the campaign, which odds are, will break up before you get to the 'good' stuff.
Or you can start at high level and never have to deal with being crappy.
Or you can avoid the whole business, be a spellcaster, take one of your spellslots which is probably better than a feat in the first place, and change it around, day by day for whatever you need, and not be saddled with taking up your limited feat slots with something that isn't good.
The FreeholdDM(tm) way of handling dodge- Pick one opponent, as per the normal Dodge feat. You may double your Dexterity modifier to AC when dealing with attacks from this opponent.
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The FreeholdDM(tm) way of handling dodge- Pick one opponent, as per the normal Dodge feat. You may double your Dexterity modifier to AC when dealing with attacks from this opponent.
Oh! Oh! There's a seed for a great idea! Take the Dodge feat, and make it instead of a +1 bonus, a bonus of half your Dex modifier, minimum +1. So a Dex 18 character would get a +2, a Dex 22 would get a +3, and so on!
Double your Dex modifier against one opponent might be a little over the top, as with your option, a Dex 22 person would gain a +12 dodge bonus against one opponent ...
freehold dm good ideal.ya gold add in +1 every 5 levels as well to make it scale but thats just a thought.
I vaguely recall seeing a version of Dodge in some other d20 game that provided a +1 dodge bonus to AC (when not flat-footed) against all targets, and *another* +1 dodge bonus to AC against one specified target.
I kinda liked that one.
I use this version myself. I know feats come a little more often in PFRPG, but I personally wouldn't choose a feat that only gave me a flat +1 to AC. This way, it's a little more palatable.
The FreeholdDM(tm) way of handling dodge- Pick one opponent, as per the normal Dodge feat. You may double your Dexterity modifier to AC when dealing with attacks from this opponent.Oh! Oh! There's a seed for a great idea! Take the Dodge feat, and make it instead of a +1 bonus, a bonus of half your Dex modifier, minimum +1. So a Dex 18 character would get a +2, a Dex 22 would get a +3, and so on!
Double your Dex modifier against one opponent might be a little over the top, as with your option, a Dex 22 person would gain a +12 dodge bonus against one opponent ...
I understand where you're coming from, but in my games, one on one combats are quite rare- it's usually a melee started by the party who seriously outnumbers the other. Still, I've had a few duels in my games, and the dodge feat used has made them into quite the slugfest- although my house rules for critical hits kept the fights from extending long into the night. Oh, and if you have a negative Dexterity modifier, you are increased to a +0, while those with no Dexterity bonus to AC are increased to +1. Forgot to stipulate that earlier.
Taking a bad feat for a good reward later on is bad design.I disagree -- what it is, is an inevitable consequence of the lack of "tiered" feats. Because they all cost one (1) slot, but some are better than others, the only way to balance them is by applying near-worthless "gateway" feats. A point-buy system would eliminate this problem, but then we'd be playing GURPS instead of D&D.
Incorrect. For one thing, requiring a feat to take another feat IS a tier system. For another, they could easily make the requirement "Dexterity 17+" instead of "Feat: Dodge" and similarly restrict the good feat to only people that REALLY want the good feat. For a third, a lot of the dodge-required feats ALSO suck ass. Mobility? Puh-lease. It does nothing for you that a few ranks in Tumble doesn't do better.
I may be in the minority, but I'm sort of a fan of making it like "Epic Dodge"... pick one attack per round... that attack misses.
If you're Inigo Montoya, fighting a giant who refuses to use anything but Overhand Chop, you're set. If you're fighting a bunch of louts with broken bottles, you're not so hot, but it might save you on the bulk discount for stitches.
Either way, you get a concrete use (and GOOD reward)for spending a feat on it, and it affects your play and tactical style. I mean, let's face it... if you've got a character who really doesn't want to get hit, they'll make sure they don't get hit (I just did an almost-TPK, and the only one who survived was the armoured, dodging, tumbling, ring of protection-ed, skirmishing Elf Scout with AC in the high 20s on a bad day).
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dodge is decent and I like the way one game in particular changed it (dungeons and dragons online) they made it +1 to all AC types: Total AC, touch AC. Also there are Class abilities that can let you keep it (uncanny dodge). But I think the AC bonus should increase for each additional feat that branches from the dodge feat (i.e. mobility, spring attack, etc.) by +1. but that is my thought.
Opinions???
Well, I love your user name -- that book was really cool -- but none on your Dodge proposal yet... I'll have to think about it.
Dodge as written (as a Combat Feat) sucks big time. Remove the header "Combat Feat" and you're good to go.
OK,
Just throwing this in as an idea. What if Dodge worked exactly like it does in the alpha but with the following modifiers:
+3 when wearing Light Armor or less
+2 when wearing Medium Armor
+1 when wearing Heavy ArmorOpinions???
JoS
That's an interesting suggestion. But it might just mean that monks & rogues take the feat, while fighters (on the other end) might not bother w/ it. Then again, who cares? Fighters have access to plenty of other feats. And since it takes a while for at least monks to get a decent AC, this would be a great help at earlier levels.
(And yes, that was a great Zelazny book. I actually made up an NPC based on the Jack of Shadows many moons ago...)
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IMHO:
Dodge should simply be: You receive a +1 dodge bonus to AC; this bonus applies anytime your Dex bonus would normally apply.
Done.
This is how it works in my campaign. I figure since Weapon Focus grants you +1 on all your attacks, no matter how many you have and against how many opponents you use it, then its counterpart should
give +1 dodge AC against all attacks.
I agree that +1 dodge bonus to AC whenever your Dex bonus applies is the way to go. Weapon Focus is a great comparison. It also takes the tedium of saying "That one's my Dodge." every turn for the players. Even better for GMs and adventure/supplement writers, it lets you put the bonus right in the stat block, instead of having to remember to apply it during the encounter.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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OK,
Just throwing this in as an idea. What if Dodge worked exactly like it does in the alpha but with the following modifiers:
+3 when wearing Light Armor or less
+2 when wearing Medium Armor
+1 when wearing Heavy ArmorOpinions???
JoS
That's an interesting suggestion. But it might just mean that monks & rogues take the feat, while fighters (on the other end) might not bother w/ it. Then again, who cares? Fighters have access to plenty of other feats. And since it takes a while for at least monks to get a decent AC, this would be a great help at earlier levels.
(And yes, that was a great Zelazny book. I actually made up an NPC based on the Jack of Shadows many moons ago...)
Jack of Shadows: Personally I like dodge the way it is in Alpha (although as part of a once per round Combat Feat Chain is a bit iffy). I do however really like your idea alot, so far it has made more sense to me than all the others.
BenS: I don't see why Fighters wouldn't take it for a couple of reasons:
1. It is still a "Gateway Feat"
2. Fighters don't sleep in their Full Plate (at least smart ones don't), so it is good if you get attacked in camp. Trust me, this has happened to us before... rassum frassum DM and his Giant Spiders and Harpies.
3. When you're on the front lines getting the crap beat out of you +1AC is still +1AC. =)
4. Not all fighters wear Full Plate. I have played a couple of Multi-Class Fighters and even one Single Class Fighter that didn't wear Heavy Armour.
In closing, I really do like Jack's idea and I hope that Jason takes a good look at changing Dodge a little (not necessarily to Jack's idea, just what fits without being over the top/powerful).
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OK,
Just throwing this in as an idea. What if Dodge worked exactly like it does in the alpha but with the following modifiers:
+3 when wearing Light Armor or less
+2 when wearing Medium Armor
+1 when wearing Heavy ArmorOpinions???
JoS
I little broken. Too much of a boost for lighter armor.
I like the idea of dodge being a non-combat feat, so you just get a +1 dodge bonus to AC.
There's another version from races of the wild or something that grants a +2 AC against all attacks, but only if you move 40 feet in a round, and can function as the old dodge feat for pre-reqs. (Expeditious dodge I think? can't recall).
I wouldn't worry too much about monks, isn't their WIS bonus given as a dodge bonus to AC? No stackie, just the larger of the two.
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I little broken. Too much of a boost for lighter armor.
I like the idea of dodge being a non-combat feat, so you just get a +1 dodge bonus to AC.
There's another version from races of the wild or something that grants a +2 AC against all attacks, but only if you move 40 feet in a round, and can function as the old dodge feat for pre-reqs. (Expeditious dodge I think? can't recall).
Yes,
I thought the +3 might be a little too much but then I realized that this is a Combat Feat. In order to get this bonus you have to forgo using any other Combat Feat that round.
Does this balance out? I don't know, I haven't tried it in play. The concept just struck me because it tweaked Dodge a little and threw a bone to the light armored fighters. I suppose it could become an issue when Wizards and Sorcerers start picking it up as their only combat feat. Though even there I have to wonder if they would find it worth the feat slot.
JoS
P.S. Yes, I am a big fan of Roger Zelazny. His passing was quite a blow.
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I wouldn't worry too much about monks, isn't their WIS bonus given as a dodge bonus to AC? No stackie, just the larger of the two.
Actually, Dodge is one of the few Bonus Types that does stack.
My first thought on Alpha Dodge is that it should apply when you are using Mobility or Spring Attack, which is equivalent to it always applying when you're not Flat-Footed.
I completely agree that Dodge should *not* be a "Combat Feat" Dodge becomes next to worthless when turning it on negates your use of your other melee feats for the round. I also find the whole idea of "only one combat feat per round" odious - the problem of melee fighters having few options is not solved by making them choose between the abilities they already had.
Please, sir, remove the restriction on combat feats. I guarantee that if I DM the game, I will not apply it to my players, and it bothers me even now trying to play it. Wait, I can only Dodge OR hit something with my shield this round? Well, crap, guess I'll just go back to "hit it with my sword" and keep my AC up...sigh...
I can't use Throw Anything and Shot on the Run in the same round? Huh, guess I'll stand still and throw my sword so I have a chance to hit...sigh, that would have been really cool...
See how this is going?
I agree with the above post, not being able to use more than one combat feat each round does limit players choices.
We start using the new feats this week, so I will be able to see how they work in practice.
Before the play testing, a plus one bonus to AC from dodge as a feat seems poor, BUT as you can only add up to your intelligence bonus to AC at the same time as taking a similar minus to your attack when using combat expertise it seems fairer. If we increase the bonus to dodge we nerf the very poor combat expertise.
OK,
Just throwing this in as an idea. What if Dodge worked exactly like it does in the alpha but with the following modifiers:
+3 when wearing Light Armor or less
+2 when wearing Medium Armor
+1 when wearing Heavy ArmorOpinions???
JoS
How about this: make it a non-combat feat, and change the bonuses thusly:
+3 when wearing no armor
+2 when wearing light armor
+1 when wearing medium armor
This is at least a token nod to realism (i.e., forget about weaving around in combat w/ heavy armor and getting an AC bonus), and really helps out low-level, unarmored characters (like monks and casters). Fighters still get some benefit, and as noted earlier, it's still a "bridge" feat. (While not the feat chain for "tanks".)
If the fear is that, at high levels, it becomes too much for monks, the answer would be to take care of that when redesigning the new monk. Which Paizo hasn't done yet.
Dodge as a +1 dodge to AC (no "targets") is a semi-decent feat, considering it's worth about 2,000 gp as a magic item.
I've considered scaling the Dodge feat so that it is +1, with an additional +1 every 5 levels (maxxing out at +5 at 20th). Not sure if that makes it too good for a feat available from 1st level though.
For now, in my own campaign, I've just made three versions - Dodge, granting +1, Improved Dodge granting +3 and Greater Dodge that grants +5. I'm not sure that really fixes the problem, but it lets you at least attempt to improve the bonus.
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I've considered scaling the Dodge feat so that it is +1, with an additional +1 every 5 levels (maxxing out at +5 at 20th). Not sure if that makes it too good for a feat available from 1st level though.
Since before 3.5 my game has used this homebrew dodge feat. This might have been the first thing in 3.0 we changed, and it's the only thing we changed about 3.0 that didn't get addressed in 3.5.
Dodge [General]
Pre: Dex 13+
Benefit: You receive a +1 Dodge bonus to your AC whenever you are not flat-footed or otherwise denied your Dexterity bonus to AC. This bonus increases by one every five levels (5th level +2, 10th level +3).
If the Pathfinder Dodge feat doesn't scale with level, or provide some other bonus (like a reflex bonus, someone suggested), I agree that Dodge as a combat feat is suspect at best.
I may be in the minority, but I'm sort of a fan of making it like "Epic Dodge"... pick one attack per round... that attack misses.
I find it delightfully humorous that someone would think that making a common 1st level feat the equal of an EPIC feat brings it up to par.
People - a +1 to AC, as someone said, is *always* useful. No matter what else you might care to do, having that as an option is always good, no matter what level you are. AC vs Attack bonus scales *roughly* equally through the levels. A stacking bonus to it available whenever you want it is quite nice.
Also the feats it is a gateway for have been improved. Mobility - 0 attacks of opportunity for moving. None. In other words, Tumble +24 for two feats (move at full speed around opponents).
The comparison with Weapon Focus is quite flawed. That grants a +1 to everyone, who you attack, which is limited. Dodge will provide a +1 to everyone who attacks you, which is not as limited. Universal defensive bonuses are almost always better than universal offensive bonuses.
Scaling it up as you level? ANOTHER +5 to AC to deal with at 20th level? You must be kidding.
Frankly, I can imagine very few classes who *won't* take the new Dodge, as is, for a simple +1 AC they can always use.
Perfect as is, as a Combat Feat.
*Snip*Perfect as is, as a Combat Feat.
I said it earlier in this thread, but I have to re-iterate that it being a "Combat Feat" negates the majority of its usefulness. +1 to AC is good, yes. But if you have a choice between that and all of the neat attacks and other stuff that's included in combat feats every round, it will either never be turned on, or it will always stay on, and make for really really dull combats for its user. The whole point of combat feats is to provide more options in combat, but with so many of the very basic 3.5 feats included in it (Dodge being the Ur-example), it has the opposite effect. Things like Dodge, Precise Shot, etc. should be passive, you should not have to sacrifice your "maneuver" for the round to use them.
Edit: /rant
Speaking of maneuvers from ToB, I've never been a huge fan, but I recognize that they brought a lot more variety and choice to melee than the plain old feat system. Combat Feats are the worst of both worlds, though - think about it. Playing a fighter under this system is like playing a 3.5 sorceror who can only learn 20 spells over the entire course of their levels, all of which either do damage or up AC and have a duration of one round. Nobody would play that class.
I find it delightfully humorous that someone would think that making a common 1st level feat the equal of an EPIC feat brings it up to par.
I'm just saying... it would mean that taking "Dodge" would be useful (and reasonably balanced, considering you can't use any other Combat Feats that round... no Cleave, no Spring Attack). When people take a big hit, they say "I dodge it", the GM says "right, forget that 12 hit points of damage. Now the invisible troll rogue that's been standing behind you makes a full attack and rends, and your dodge is GONE." Instead of having to choose (if you remember to nominate on your turn) who you're dodging, and getting a bonus that might help to avoid a hit (about 5% of the time), it would just mean you get to choose 1 hit a round and ignore it.
Great for one-on-one duellists (and balanced against other duellists with the same feat), but not so handy if you're surrounded. But at least you're doing something useful. Really, would it make the feat that overpowered? Getting to ignore one hit per round? Especially at higher levels, when you're looking at critters like the Thorciasid (one of my pet hates).
Here you go:
Full Attack: 2 forelimbs +36 melee touch (1d4+1 Strength, 1d4+1 Dexterity, 1 Con, all permanent drain, and regain 20 hp per touch) and 2 antennae +30 melee touch (one negative level, grant the Thorciasid +1 Constitution for 24 hours, DC 34 to remove).
CR: 22
In what fractured reality is this even remotely fair or balanced? Show me a CR 22 critter that could even match that?
See, epic feats are really not that useful. IT'S MAKING 4 ATTACKS AS MELEE TOUCHES WITH A +30 OR GREATER BONUS! AAAGH [/fail Sanity check].
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How about this: make it a non-combat feat, and change the bonuses thusly: +3 when wearing no armor
+2 when wearing light armor
+1 when wearing medium armor
It could even be tweaked a little more.
+1 normally.
+1 more if unarmored.
+1 more dedicated to a single combatant in a round, which must be declared.
This would combine the normal effects of Dodge, the declared active bonus against a single opponent, and include the bonus for everyone at all times, as well as a bonus for unarmored fighters.
To further tweak it, the +1 dedicated bonus against a single opponent could change to a +2 bonus against that one foe, but remove the +1 bonus against *all* foes. You dedicate, but it's a sacrifice if another opponent is near enough to become a danger.