wrecan, I really like the work you're doing here; the comparisons are a huge help in the debate. I wonder why a +10 racial bonus, though, instead of +8 as creatures currently get with Climb or Swim? A few sphynxes and devils would drop a maneuverability rating, but otherwise it wouldn't affect much, and would retain consistency with the other racial movement mods.
Excellent suggestion! And thanks for the compliment. (By the by, sphinxes don't get the racial modifiers)
To BM: There is at least one aspect of the Fly skill which does directly relate to competitive flying. If two creatures of equal size collide, they each must make a DC 25 Fly check or fall to the ground. A creature with a decent chance to make that check should always try to collide with a creature less likely to make that check, inflicting massive falling damage (particularly if he lures the creature to or encounters the creature at a nice height).
And a question, are you completely against the idea of dragons being good flyers?
For backwards compatibility purposes, yes, I am against the idea of most dragons being good flyers. Dragons should not be able to hover like a hummingbird or a will-o-the-wisp, make hairpin turns or nose dives to stop on a dime. Dragons are huge majestic creatures that need to soar and swoop, using their breath weapons to keep larger creatures at bay.
To your first post: Sounds like what pregine falcon does... I know it favors the high HD monster, and the only way to do it under the fly skill would to give it less skill points which is less than optimal
My system accommodates it just fine.
1)Dragons could do all those things in the 3.5 by buring feats.
And I thought 3.5 was nonsensical on this point. Red dragons with feats were simultaneously clumsy fliers and able to hover?! Wha-huh?
We are in complete disagreement on the point of whether dragons should fly well or not. Your dragons are ungraceful giants, mine are fast, killing machines that use their years of experience(feats) to outmaneuver their foes in the air, despite their grait.
Under your system every creature is going to have to be individually tailored to fit a preconceived notion. I liked simplifying Skills. Statting a dragon in 3.5 is one of the more annoying chores for a DM.
As for doubling maneuver mods, it's still more complicated than my system (which as far as I can tell you dislike because you have some notion that natural armor means skin as thin as tissue but as tough as steel, rather than big and bulky skin). Another way to look at the natural armor penalty is to think of it as an double armor penalty, just like swimming in physical armor.
Moreover, it basically renders all other modifiers irrelevant. Perfect fliers get a +16. At 1 HD they will make every check. Good fliers get a +8, meaning that the Skill becomes irrelevant for them around 5th level (with typical Dex mods). Clumsy fliers (-16) might as well never use their wings.
The trick for feats that are primarily used to avoid natural hazards (Swim, Jump, Climb) is keeping bonuses in-between -5 and +15. Below that and using the Skill is too treacherous. Above that and the Skill is utterly irrelevant.
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I like the numbers that wrecan has produced. It makes sense to me. While natural armor isn't exactly the most logical penalty to fly, there is a plausible explanation for it. While I want the fly skill to 'emulate reality' (as much as that is possible when talking about dragons and rocs) I also want it to be easy to use. I don't want to calculate vectors, and the coefficient of gravity. I want a simple system that yields the results that we expect.
Under this system an otherwise poor flier should be able to improve via feats. Thus, an exceptional red dragon might end up a poor flyer with this proposed skill system, and the default may not 'max skills' if the new system allows that (which I'm fine with). With some extra feats, though, a creature might differ from their racial norm by developing more flying ability than they might otherwise have with just skill points usage.
I'd like to see it that any creature with natural flight have fly as a class skill, and any creature that does not have a natural flight method should have it as an available cross class skill (assuming those are retained).
A quick footnote on how dragons fly under my set-up.
The Fly Skill does not have anything to do with speed. So dragons are still the swiftest things in the sky. What they cannot do is turn on a dime or remain aloft in case of collision with larger creatures and weather that affects creatures of their size.
But remember that dragons -- once grown -- are some off the biggest creatures in the sky. They grow to gargantuan and colossal in size. So once grown, their lack of a Fly bonus is irrelevant to those issues. They can remain aloft in all but hurricane force winds, and the only collisions they need to avoid are rocs and other ancient dragons.
Otherwise, all this means is that dragons have to approach prey smartly, swooping in low and making broad majestic turns in the sky. They have the Intelligence for it. And there's a reason that dragons have an average Dexterity. They're not intended to be majorly agile.
However, even on my system you can fix that. If you want agile dragons, increase their Dexterity. If you make their Dex match their Str, their Fly bonuses increase by up to +10, moving them from clumsy and poor fliers to good or even perfect fliers (and green dragons become the best fliers in the sky, after air elementals and will-o-the-wisps). And then they can easily turn on a dime, despite their bulk, and do all the maneuvers their massive draconic hearts desire.
Here is the consolidated list, including dragons, which I realize works entirely by size.
So here's the proposed rule:
- Every creature with a Fly speed listed in their monster entry is proficient in Fly.
- Creatures with the air, extraplanar or incorporeal subtypes receive a +8 racial bonus to Fly and can take 10 on Fly checks even when threatened.
- Creatures add their Dex, Size bonus to AC and subtract their Natural Armor bonus to AC.
The "+" after the name means, they are one category better than they were in 3.5. The "-" after the name means they are one category worse than they were in 3.5. (However, ravids and lantern archons are perfect fliers in 3.5, but much worse in this system)
Clumsy (negative)
Darkmantle- (-1), Dragons, non-green Colossal (-4)
Poor (0-4)
Cloaker- (+4), Dragons, non-green Medium through Gargantuan (+4 to +0), Griffon- (+4), Manticore+ (+4), Chimera (+3), Hippogriff- (+3), Ogre mage- (+2), Ravid- (+2), Giant praying mantis (+1), Sphinx, andro/crio (+1), Lammasu- (+0), Sphinx, gyno (+0)
Average (5-9)
Homonculus- (+9), Lantern archon- (+9), Planetar angel- (+9), Succubus demon (+9), Vrock demon (+9), Dragon, green Gargantuan+ (+8), Ghaele- (+8), Grig sprite+ (+8), Mephit, earth/salt (+8), Pixie Sprite+ (+8), Raven (+8), Zelekhut inevitable (+8), Hawk (+7), Owl (+7), Couatl- (+6), Dragonne+ (+6), Dragons, non-green and non-white Tiny (+6), Eagle (+6), Giant bee- (+6), Giant eagle (+6), Giant owl (+6), Nalfeshnee demon+ (+6), Dragons, non-green Small (+5), Gargoyle (+5), Nightmare- (+5), Pegasus (+5), Pseudodragon- (+5), Sphinx, hieraco+ (+5)
Good (10-14)
Belker- (+14), Imp devil- (+14), Mephit, ice- (+14), Dragon, green Huge and smaller+ (+13 to +10), Horned devil (+13), Pit fiend devil (+13), Astral deva angel (+12), Bat swarm (+12), Cockatrice+ (+12), Mephit, fire/magma/steam+ (+12), Nightwing (+12), Trumpet archon (+12), Giant wasp (+12), Harpy+ (+11), Bat (+10), Dragon, white wyrmling+ (+10), Janni- (+10), Mephit, ooze/water- (+10), Roc+ (+10), Stirge+ (+10)
Perfect (15+)
Will-O’-Wisp (+30), Air elemental (between +26 and +14), Arrowhawk (between +23 and +18), Planetar angel+ (+19), Spectre (+19), Wraith (+19), Balor demon+ (+18), Djinni (+18), Invisible Stalker (+18), Efreeti (+17), Erinyes Devil (+17), Allip (+16), Avoral+ (+16), Shadow (+16), Solar angel+ (+16), Quasit demon (+16), Bralani+ (+15), Lillend+ (+15), Mephit, air/dust (+15)
Wow! This thread has grown since last I last posted. Amazing debate and interesting figures!
I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet, but what about a creatures size act as a modifier to the fly skill?
Fine: +8
Diminutive: +4
Tiny: +2
Small: +1
Med: +/- 0
Large: -1
Huge: -2
Gargantuan: -4
Colossal: -8
I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet, but what about a creatures size act as a modifier to the fly skill?
You're about 2 pages behind.