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What to do with skills seems to be one of the most hotly debated topics regarding the Alpha release of the Pathfinder rules. There have literally been hundreds of suggestions regarding what can be changed, and what should be changed. This thread is not designed to support that debate. Rather, this thread is a place to put a complete system for Skills for Paizo to use with their new system. Jason has a thread talking about what he sees as possibilities for the skill system. This thread is a place for you (and me) to expand those possibilities.
What follows is a skill system as complete as I can make it. I have refrained from ‘simplifying’ my explanation in order to show that it is as complete as possible. While I welcome feedback (positive or negative) I humbly ask that you provide it in another thread that I have created at the same time. This thread should only be for posting an example of a complete system like the one I have included below.
Thank you for your cooperation.
With the skill system proposed below I am attempting to create a system that is fairly compatible with the 3.5 system, but makes choosing skills and updating skills simple and quick for both players and Dungeonmasters. I believe the following system achieves these design objectives.
Skills Summary
A character’s skills reprsent a variety of abilities. As a character advances in level, he or she can continue to improve in their ability to use their existing skills, or learn completely new ones.
Getting Skills: A characters gets a base allotment of skill points for each new level, depending on the class to which the level is added. The base number of skills is not multiplied at 1st level or with a creature’s first Hit Die. Humans receive 2 extra skill points at 1st level and each additional level.
All skills cost one skill point to buy one rank in that skill. The maximum number of ranks a character may possess in any skill is equal to his or her character level + 5.
Using Skills:
To make a skill check roll 1d20+skill modifier (skill modifier = skill rank + ability modifier + miscellaneous modifiers)
The higher the roll the more successful the action. For most skills you are attempting to exceed a certain Difficulty Class (DC), or to beat another character’s check result. For instance, to sneak quietly past a guard, Meriel needs to make a Stealth check that exceeds the guard’s Perception check result.
Skill Ranks: A characcter’s number of skill ranks in a skill is based on how many skill points the character has invested in that skill. Many skills can be used even if the character has no ranks; these skills can be attempted untrained.
Ability Modifier: The ability modifier used in a skill check is the modifier for the skill’s key ability (the ability associated with the skill’s use). The key ability of each skill is noted in its description.
Miscellaneous Modifiers: Miscellaneous modifiers include racial bonuses, armor check penalties, bonuses provided by feats, synergy bonuses, and skill bonuses granted by items or spells, among others.
Acquiring Skill Ranks
Ranks indicate how much training or experience your character has with a given skill. Each of his or her skills has a rank, ranging from 0 (for a skill in which your character has no training at all) to a number equal to 5+character level (for a character who has increased a skill to its maximum rank). When making a skill check, you add your character’s skill ranks to the roll as part of the skill modifier, so the more ranks you have, the higher your skill check result will be. A character can add no more than 5 ranks to any one skill when leveling up.
Ranks tell you how proficient you are and reflect your training in a given skill. In general, while anyone can get a lucky roll, a character with 15 ranks has more training and expertise than a character with 10 ranks, even if the character has a higher total skill modifier due to a high ability modifier or a racial ability. While the first character has more practical knowledge of the skill, the other character has more natural talent that may help to overcome the difference in training.
Class Skill Points Per Level
Barbarian 8 + Intelligence Modifier
Bard 10 + Intelligence Modifier
Cleric 6 + Intelligence Modifier
Druid 8 + Intelligence Modifier
Fighter 6 + Intelligence Modifier
Monk 8 + Intelligence Modifier
Paladin 6 + Intelligence Modifier
Ranger 10 + Intelligence Modifier
Rogue 12 + Intelligence Modifier
Sorcerer 6 + Intelligence Modifier
Wizard 8 + Intelligence Modifier
Type Skill Points Per Level
Aberration 5 + Intelligence Modifier
Animal 5 + Intelligence Modifier
Construct 5 + Intelligence Modifier (if Intelligent) or 0
Dragon 15 + Intelligence Modifier
Giant 5 + Intelligence Modifier
Humanoid 5 + Intelligence Modifier
Magical Beast 5 + Intelligence Modifier
Monstrous Humanoid 5+Intelligence Modifier
Ooze 5 + Intelligence Modifier (if Intelligent) or 0
Outsider 15 + Intelligence Modifier
Plant 5 + Intelligence Modifier (if Intelligent) or 0
Undead 10 + Intelligence Modifier (if Intelligent) or 0
Vermin 5 + Intelligence Modifier (if Intelligent) or 0
Skill Untrained Ability
Acrobatics Yes Dex
Appraise Yes Int
Climb Yes Int
Concentration Yes Con
Craft No Int
Deception Yes Cha
Disable Device No Int
Disguise Yes Cha
Escape Artist Yes Dex
Fly No Dex
Handle Animal No Cha
Heal Yes Wis
Knowledge (dungeoneering) No Int
Knowledge (engineering) No Int
Knowledge (geography) No Int
Knowledge (history) No Int
Knowledge (local) No Int
Knowledge (nature) No Int
Knowledge (religion) No Int
Linguistics No Int
Perception Yes Wis
Perform Yes Cha
Persuasion Yes Cha
Profession No Wis
Ride Yes Dex
Sense Motive No Wis
Sleight of Hand No Dex
Spellcraft Yes Int
Stealth Yes Dex
Survival Yes Wis
Swim Yes Str
Use Magic Device No Cha
Acrobatics (Dex; Armor Check Penalty)
As Pathfinder Alpha
Appraise (Int)
As Pathfinder Alpha except that the time to determine an item’s properties should be at least 1 minute, not one action.
Climb (Str)
As PHB 3.5 with one addition. Allow characters to take a -20 penalty to their climb check to retain their dexterity bonus to AC.
Concentration (Con)
This ability works like the 3.5 PHB but also includes Control Shapechange (MM) and Autohypnosis (Psionics Handbook)
Craft (Int, Trained Only)
This should work somewhat like the 3.5 PHB, but rather than converting the price into silver pieces to determine the length of time required to produce an item, it should be a simple formula. Every item that can be created will fall into one of three categories: simple, complex, or difficult to create. A masterwork item is always treated as one category more difficult than the base item. A character can craft an item with a craft DC of 10 or less untrained.
A simple item takes one day to complete. For every 5 points the check exceeds the DC, the item is created one hour earlier. For example, it takes 1 day to create a normal longsword (a DC 15 check). With a DC 35 check, the longsword can be finished in four hours.
A complex item takes one week to complete. For every 5 points the check exceeds the DC, the item is created one day earlier. Examples of complex items include a masterwork longsword or a suit of full plate.
A difficult item takes one month to complete. For every 5 points the check exceeds the DC, the item is created one day earlier. Examples of difficult items include masterwork full plate or a complex mechanical trap.
An item may have a base time to create of longer than one month. In this case it should be treated as composed of a number of components (simple, complex or difficult themselves). After all components are created, a final check is made to combine them.
A craft check is made when the item is begun. A failure indicates that the item takes longer than the base time. Each failed check causes a simple item to take one extra hour, and a complex or difficult item to take one additional day. After the extra time a new check is made. A failure by 5 or more uses up half of the required materials and causes the item to fail, requiring the item to be started anew.
Deception (Cha)
The skill allows a character to tell a lie, feint in combat, or communicate a secret message to an ally.
To successfully tell a lie you must succeed on a deception check that exceeds the sense motive check of your opponent. Failure indicates that the opponent you have attempted to deceive is aware that you’re not telling the full truth, but does not know what the real truth is. Modifiers to this use of the Deception skill as presented in Pathfinder Alpha remain unchanged.
Feinting in combat works exactly as presented in Pathfinder Alpha.
Communicating a secret message works exactly as presented in Pathfinder Alpha.
Disable Device (Int, Trained Only)
This skill would work exactly like the 3.5 PHB skill, but it would also include the 3.5 Open Lock skill. The time to open a lock would work exactly like the time to disable a device. A DC 25+ lock would require 2d4 rounds. I suggest that for every 5 points the DC is exceeded, it takes one round less. For example, Merisel attempts to open a lock with a DC of 20. Her modified Disable Device score is 33. She exceeded the check by 13, so she subtracts 2 rounds from the time required (2d4-2, minimum 1).
Disguise (Cha)
This would work exactly like in the 3.5 PHB, with one clarification of the modifiers. The modifiers as listed do not apply when using magic to create a disguise.
Escape Artist (Dex, Armor Check Penalty)
This skill would work as presented in the 3.5 PHB, but the DC to escape ropes needs to be a static DC – I suggest 25. To escape a grapple, one must succeed at a check equal to the opponents Grapple Combat Modifier. The DC to escape is increased by +5 if you are grabbed, +10 if you are grappled, and +15 if you are pinned. If you are pinned, but succeed on a DC 15 Escape Artist check, you are instead held.
Fly (Dex, Armor Check Penalty, Trained Only)
This skill works as presented in the Pathfnder Alpha RPG.
Handle Animal (Cha, Trained Only)
This works exactly like the 3.5 PHB.
Heal (Wis)
This skill works as the skill in the 3.5 PHB, but once per day a character may be healed of 1d4 hp through the use of the heal skill with a DC 15 Heal check. A character may not use the heal skill to heal himself in this manner.
Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int, Trained Only)
Knowledge (engineering) (Int, Trained Only)
Knowledge (geography) (Int, Trained Only)
Knowledge (history) (Int, Trained Only)
Knowledge (local) (Int, Trained Only)
Knowledge (nature) (Int, Trained Only)
Knowledge (religion) (Int, Trained Only)
These skills collectively work just as the 3.5 PHB, with a few minor changes. The skill knowledge (planes) has been removed and is now included in knowledge (religion). The skill knowledge (nobility) is removed and is included as part of knowledge (local). The skill knowledge (arcana) is removed. Ancient mysteries are included under History, and magic traditions and arcane symbols are part of Spellcraft. Identifying constructs is included knowledge (engineering) while dragons and magical beasts are included under knowledge (nature).
When a knowledge skill is used to identify weaknesses of a monster, the HD or CR of the creature has no bearing. The DC to determine basic or commonly known information about a creature is DC 15, while more esoteric knowledge is a DC 20, 25 or even 30. For example, to determine that a troll is vulnerable to fire is a DC 15, while determining what the amount of DR of a great wyrm red dragon is a 25. For the most part, I expect the DCs and the information available to be included when Paizo provides these monsters.
Linguistics (Int, Trained Only)
This skill works as in Pathfinder Alpha.
Perception (Wis)
This skill works as in Pathfinder Alpha.
Perform (Cha)
This skill works as in the 3.5 PHB but can be attempted untrained.
Persuasion (Cha)
This skill works as Diplomacy as presented in the Pathfinder Alpha, as well as the Intimidate skill as presented in Pathfinder Alpha. Using the Diplomacy aspect of the Persuasion skill takes at least one minute, but using the Intimidate function only requires a standard action.
Profession (Wis)
This skill works as the skill in the 3.5 PHB, but requires that a suitable place to perform one’s trade is available. One can’t work as an apothecary without a shop and access to a garden or other source of herbs. One cannot work as a sailor without setting sail aboard a boat.
Ride (Con)
This skill works like the skill in Pathfinder Alpha, but uses Constitution instead of Dexterity as the key ability and does not include an armor check penalty.
Sense Motive (Wis)
This skill works exactly as the skill presented in the 3.5 PHB.
Sleight of Hand (Dex, Armor Check Penalty, Trained Only)
This skill works exactly as the skill presented in the 3.5 PHB.
Spellcraft
This skill works like the skill as presented in the 3.5 PHB, but also includes the ability to identify an ongoing magical effect as originally included in the knowledge (arcana) skill presented in the 3.5 PHB.
Stealth (Dex, Armor Check Penalty)
This skill works as presented in Pathfinder Alpha.
Survival (Wis)
This skill works as presented in Pathfinder Alpha.
Swim (Str, Armor Check Penalty)
This skill works as the skill presented in the 3.5 PHB, but the check penalty is not multiplied, and additional penalties for additional gear are not included. A character cannot swim if carrying more than a light load, but can walk along the bottom of a lake or ocean.
Use Magic Device (Cha, Trained Only)
This skill works as presented in the 3.5 PHB.
If you’ve made it this far, thank you. What follows is a bit of explanation.
First of all, while eliminating the class skill/cross-class skill distinction may cause some people concern, I do think it is necessary for simplicity. Simply put, skills represent something that anyone can learn with effort. While certain classes are more likely to use some skills compared to others, they are not more capable of learning those skills. The class/cross-class skill is a major element of making assigning skills to an NPC a major hassle, along with determining when each level was taken to determine if the skill were a class or cross-class. All in all, classes will choose a skill that best represents their vision of the character, and most skills have similar usefulness, so there will not be one skill that every character takes (except, perhaps, Perception, but that is probably a good thing, and isn’t one I changed).
As far as skill points go, this system has two effects. It is hard to simply max out a skill. Since you receive more skill points over time, if you attempt to do this, you will begin adding additional skills to be maxed out in. Under this system a rogue with an Int of 10 can have maximum ranks in 9 skills at level 15 (20 ranks each), compared to only 8 for a 3.5 rogue. As far as the skill points, a character begins with less, but quickly equals or exceeds the standard 3.5 progression. A rogue with a 10 intelligence under this system catches up to the 3.5 rogue at 6th level (72 skill points). With an 18 intelligence under this system catches up to a 3.5 rogue at 9th level (144 skill points). A barbarian under this system catches up to the 3.5 equivalent at 3rd level with a 10 Int, or at 10th level assuming an 18 Intelligence (104 skill points in 3.5, 106 under this system). Effectively, this encourages a character to take new skills as they continue adventuring, creating a character that is both organic, but extremely quick for a DM to create.
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Minor correction - The typed text included the appropriate number of skill points for classes, but not for creature types.
Corrections
Type Skill Points Per Level
Aberration 6 + Intelligence Modifier
Animal 4 + Intelligence Modifier
Construct 4 + Intelligence Modifier (if Intelligent) or 0
Dragon 10 + Intelligence Modifier
Giant 6 + Intelligence Modifier
Humanoid 6 + Intelligence Modifier
Magical Beast 6 + Intelligence Modifier
Monstrous Humanoid 5+Intelligence Modifier
Ooze 4 + Intelligence Modifier (if Intelligent) or 0
Outsider 12 + Intelligence Modifier
Plant 4 + Intelligence Modifier (if Intelligent) or 0
Undead 10 + Intelligence Modifier (if Intelligent) or 0
Vermin 4 + Intelligence Modifier (if Intelligent) or 0
It is better to be a fighter or a wizard than a rat as far as skill points go.
man did you make tow of theas or did i lose a post .
This is just the skill list, no class skill lists or synergies, and I will wait to see what Pathfinder does about skill points.
It is mostly the same as the alpha version, the changes are:
A) The Charm/Negotiate skills which switch Bluff’s and Diplomacy’s skill partners. This fixes the point you brought up in the Deception thread about lying and detecting lies. I think the skill pairs fit together more naturally too, IMHO.
B) Decipher Device/Deft Hands. I separated Disable Device’s and Open Locks’ abilities into two categories, those you can solve with physical dexterity like picking a lock or manipulating a trap’s components to disarm it, and those you solve with intelligence, such as how to sabotage an item or how you can bypass a magical trap.
C) The Trickery skill. Disguise as written in the 3.5 PHB is about making a disguise. Making a disuise seems INT-based, you can use Charm or Perform to act in character. So I put Disguise with Forgery in the Trickery Skill.
Acrobatics (DEX) Balance + Jump + Tumble
Arcana (CHA) Use Magic Device
Appraise (INT)
Charm (CHA) or Influence Bluff + Gather Info
Climb (STR) Climb + Use Rope
Decipher Device (INT) Disable Device (mental) + Search
You are skilled at solving puzzles, disarming traps and figuring out where objects are hidden.
Deft Hands (DEX) or Prestidigitation or Legerdemain
Disable Device (physical) + Open Lock + Sleight of Hand
You are skilled at manual dexterity.
Fly (DEX)
Handle Animal (CHA) or Husbandry
You can train animals and influence their actions.
Heal (WIS)
Intimidate (CHA)
Linguistics (INT) Decipher Script + Speak Languages
Negotiate (CHA) Diplomacy + Sense Motive
Perception (WIS) or Awareness or Senses Listen + Spot
Ride (DEX)
You know how to ride and the take care of the basic needs of an animal.
Stealth (DEX) Hide + Move Silently + Escape Artist
Survival (WIS) Survival
Swim (STR)
Trickery (INT) or Chicanery Disguise + Forgery
Vocation Skills
Craft (INT)
Perform (CHA)
Profession (WIS)
Spellcraft (INT) Concentration + Spellcraft
I haven’t done anything with Knowledge checks yet.
I did have:
Vocation Skills: At 1st level characters get max ranks in one Vocation Skill of their choice. Rogues are not limited to Vocation Skills, they can chose any one skill on their skill list.
This represents what your character learned while they were growing up. It’s kind of like the old Secondary Skill in earlier editions.
Sorry, I know you said Complete Skill system, but it is late here and I should be in bed. I have a touch of insomnia, this seems to have helped that.
since there are two posts i am gonna re post in this one what i put there
ok I'M gonna throw mine up there . mine is basically the alpha with one change. every time you get a new skill you add the level modifier starting from the level they get it not total level
lets look at a 6th level charter with lets say climb lets say strength of 17+3
climb 3 str17+3+6 that's +12 at 1st cross would be 3+3+3=+9
2nd 3+3+5=+11 and cross 3+3+2=+8
4th 3+3+3=+9 cross 3+3+1=+7
6th 3+3+1=+7 cross 3+3+0=+6
now I think this system would be easy will not make you as good with a skill you just took as one you have had for ages.
My proposal:
Skills are divided into two groups: Trained o untrained:
Skill Check bonus for trained skills: 1d20 + char lvl. +3 +ability modifier + misc. modifiers.
Skil Check bonus for untrained skills: 1d20+ 1/2 x char lvl. +ability modifier + misc. modifiers.
At 1st level your character selects a number of skills acording to his class (as the table presented in the Pathfinder RPG)
At 2nd level and once every four level after that (6th, 10th, 14th and 18th) your character gains a new skill from the class list of any of the classes that he has.
Skill List:
1. Acrobatics (former: Tumble, Escape Artist, Balance) (DEX) U
2. Appraise (INT) U
3. Athletics (former: Swim, Jump, Climb) (STR) U
4. Deception (former: Bluff, Sense motive) (CHA) U
5. Disguise (CHA) U
6. Diplomacy (former: Diplomacy, Gather Information) (CHA) U
7. Handle Animal (CHA)
8. Heal (WIS) U
9. Intimidate (CHA) U
10. Knowledge(Arcana) (INT)
11. Knowledge(Architecture & Engineering) (INT)
12. Knowledge(Dungeoneering) (INT)
13. Knowledge(Geography) (INT)
14. Knowledge (History) (INT)
15. Knowledge (Local) (INT)
16. Knowledge (Nature) (INT)
17. Knowledge(Nobility) (INT)
18. Knowledge (The Planes) (INT)
19. Knowledge (Religion) (INT)
20. Knowledge (Warfare) (INT)
21. Linguistics (former: Decipher Script, Forgery) (INT)
22. Perception (former: Listen, Spot, Search) (WIS) U
23. Ride (DEX) U
24. Sneak (former: Move Silently, Hide) (DEX) U
25. Spellcraft (former: Spellcraft, , Concentration) (INT)
26. Survival (WIS) U
27. Thievery (former: Sleight Of Hand, Open Lock, Disable Device) (DEX)
28. Use Magic Device (CHA)
29. Vocation (former: Craft, Perform, Profession) (INT)
U : Untrained skill
I also thought that to provide further choices for character skills a feat could be implemented:
Skill Training
You are considered trained in a new skill.
Benefit: Choose one skill. You become trained in that skill.
Special: This feat may be selected multiple times. Each time you take this feat, it applies to a different class skill.
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This ended up in the archive. Because there have been a rash of posts about 'this is the system you should use' I thought I would revive this and renew my request that if you have a system you want to propose, that you put it in an existing thread (like this one). And comment on it in the other thread (comments).
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Here is fairly complete system that reflects my current thinking/feeling about skills in Pathfinder Alpha 1.
It begins with ...
The Epic Meepo Simplified Skill-Point System - the EMSSPS
Use the current 3.5/OGL skill-point system with the following changes:
1) Cost per rank in any skill = 1 skill point
2) Maximum ranks in any skill = character level +3
3) Skill checks:
* (for class skills) = 1d20 + ability modifier + rank
* (for cross-class skills) = 1d20 + ability modifier + rank/2
By shifting the distinction between class and cross-class skills away from cost-per-rank to how skill checks are calculated, old cross-class skills are now automatically upgraded when a skill becomes a class skill.
4) Once a skill becomes a class skill for a character (due to multi-classing or maybe a feat), it remains a class skill even if it is not on the 'class skills list' for the character's current class; i.e., once a class skill, always a class skill.
5) Increases in skill points due to permanent changes in Intelligence (most likely when a character levels up) are applied retroactively. Temporary modifiers like bonuses to Intelligence from spells or magic items and penalties due to Intelligence damage do not affect skill ranks.
Think of it as gaining new insight into something you've known for a while. An ah-ha moment. An epiphany. You're not going back in time and pretending you knew it all along, you're just smart enough now to fill in some of the gaps in what you knew before.
6) Skill synergies are gone (although the Lordzack Synergy Compromise below may revive them in a MUCH less complicated way).
7) Use a consolidated skills list.
With ...
The DeadDMWalking 1st-Level Corollary - the DDW1C
Eliminate the x4 skill points at 1st level in favor of a slightly faster progression overall:
Rogue = 12+Int
Ranger/Bard = 10+Int
Barbarain, Druid, Monk = 8+Int
Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Sorcerer, Wizard = 6+Int
The added value here is that, when creating a high-level NPC, it doesn't matter which class they took levels in first! A Rogue 2/Wizard 6 would have the same number of skill points as a Wizard 6/Rogue 2. In effect, you've got one big pool of skill points to work with, no restrictions, no worries.
Plus ...
The Lordzack Synergy Compromise - the LZSC
Skill synergies could work like Aid Another. You roll the first skill check (using the 'helping' skill) against DC 10 and if you succeed you get a +2 bonus on the second skill check with the main skill. Which skills synergize and under what conditions is up to the DM.
And finally, my consolidated skills list ...
The Mosaic Somewhat Consolidated Skills List - the MSCSL
Acrobatics (Dex) - Balance + Tumble + Fly, no Jump
The Balance and Tumble aspects would function as described in Pathfinder Alpha 1. Acrobatics could also incorporate Fly (as described in Pathfinder Alpha 1) if characters have that ability; like Balance and Tumble, it is a Dex skill that deals with maneuverability.
Appraise (Int)
as in Pathfinder Alpha 1
Climb (Str)
as in 3.5/OGL
Craft (Int)
Sorry, still under construction. One thought though. It seems to me that many characters are going to repair more things than they will create, so the name might not change, but in my mind the skill should probably become more of Craft/Repair than just Craft.
Deception (Cha) - Bluff + Gather Information, no Disguise, no Forgery, no Sense Motive
Deception would work as in Pathfinder for lying, feinting, sending secret messages, etc. Disguise and Sense Motive would remain separate skills, Forgery would become either Craft (forgery) or Profession (forger) and Sense Motive would roll into Perception. Because a person could reasonably use deception to wander around town and ask questions, pretending to be someone they're not or just generally being sly, I would add Gather Information skills to Deception without taking it away from Diplomacy.
Diplomacy (Cha) - Diplomacy + Gather Information
Both function as in Pathfinder Alpha 1, however, being diplomatic isn't the only way to gather information. I would add Gather Information to Deception and Intimidate as well.
Discipline (Wis) - Concentration + new stuff
This would almost be like Will save, the skill. It could represent training or just personal focus. There is a role for Concentration outside of Spellcraft; a skillful mage could still balk under pressure. And rogues or anyone else trying to perform a skill in combat or under pressure should still have to see if their concentration holds. I'd love a trance-like mechanic where a fighter could get 'in the zone' and pick up some benefits, like a +1 to hit or unlock some ability. Finally, Discipline would be a great skill for NPCs to help determine when they break ranks and run or accept brides or do something else against their orders.
Disguise (Cha)
as in 3.5/OGL
Escape Artist (Dex)
as in 3.5/OGL
Handle Animal (Cha)
as in 3.5/OGL
Heal (Wis)
as in 3.5, but characters should be able to actually use Heal to heal a small number of hit points (maybe 1d4 or 1 hp per rank).
Intimidate (Str) - Intimidate + Gather Information
First, change Intimidate to a Str skill; we already have several ways to influence people's behavior based on Cha, now giving someone else a way to influence people. Intimidation is a nice fit for ugly, uncharismatic brutes. I would also add a feat called "Clever Interrogator" that gives a +2 bonus and allows characters to use Int instead of Str (somewhat similar to Intimidating Prowess in Pathfinder Alpha 1). Second, because a person could reasonably use intimidation to wander around town and ask questions, threatening folks or just being a bully, I would add the Gather Information skills to Intimidate without taking it away from Diplomacy. Otherwise, as in 3.5/OGL
Jump (Str)
as in Pathfinder Alpha 1
Knowledge (Int) - Knowledge + Decipher Script
I like the knowledge versus technical skills relationship with Spellcraft. I would assume clerics have something similar between Knowledge (religion) and Spellcraft. Instead of Decipher Script as a separate skill or part of a new skill called "Linguistics," just make "Knowledge (linguistics)" that helps characters identify unknown languages, know who speaks them, and try to decipher them.
The other half of Linguistics - learning languages - has always been a problem for me. It's just too easy to learn languages in 3.5. I would suggest pulling languages out of skills entirely. Characters already have opportunities to learn languages at level one with their Int bonus and if they increase their Int as they advance in levels, they can add more. If people really want to learn a new language, make each language a feat. Feats are a lot closer to the level of commitment required to learn a language than 1 skill point.
Open Locks (Dex)
This is one of rogues' signature skills. With all those skill points, rogues can afford to spend points on both Disable Device and Open Locks. And if someone is cross-classing to get these skills, I don't want them getting both abilities so cheaply.
Perception (Wis)
As in Pathfinder Alpha 1 except I would a little intuition. I think there's room in Perception for a little 6th sense, kind of a tingling Spider-sense that's a little DM initiated ("She tells you her story - roll a d20 - but you get the feeling she's leaving something out.").
Perform (Cha)
as in 3.5
Profession (Int)
Sorry, still under construction. To a certain degree, you could just Profession everything and call it a day; Profession (fighter), Profession (cleric), Profession (wizard), etc. For the adventuring classes, it's worth it to separate out their individual skills, but for a farmer or a baker, it's probably not worth it. One skill, Profession (farmer), contains all the knowledge and the skills needed for a farmer to do whatever farmers do. Nothing else is really needed unless the farmer is good at some un-farmerly things. So maybe Profession stays really general - "everything a __ knows and can do" - and is a cross-class skill for everyone except Experts (Commoners could take profession ranks, but would be slowed way down, as they should be). Because it's mostly non-adventurey stuff, PCs could take a few ranks for flavor, but it wouldn't really help them much in a dungeon.
Ride (Dex)
as in 3.5/OGL
Search (Int)
as in 3.5/OGL. I strongly believe Search needs to stay separate from Perception. Perception seems to me to be mostly passive, what characters notice. But Search is active, "I search the room for clues," or "I search the library for a book on demons." It is also based on Int. A smart person can search well, even if she isn't particularly perceptive, because she can figure out clues and patterns and recognize when things are out of place.
Sense Ruse (Wis) - Sense Motive
As in 3.5/OGL but I would rename it "Sense Ruse" because it doesn't just deal with motives anymore. This is too useful a skill to lump in with Perception or Deception, and not everyone who is good at those things is going to be good at spotting lies or deceit.
Sneak (Dex)
as in Pathfinder Alpha 1
Spellcraft (Int) - Spellcraft, no Concentration
Spellcraft would function as in Pathfinder Alpha 1 but I would keep Concentration separate.
Survival (Wis)
as in Pathfinder Alpha 1. My only other thought is that it would be interesting to see different environments taken into consideration in Survival. Surviving in the arctic is different than surviving in the desert. Maybe with each rank a character could add an environment to their list. They take a -5 penalty when trying to use their survival skills in an unknown environment (kind of like the -5 penalty you take for trying to ride an unsuitable mount).
Swim (Str)
as in 3.5[/b]
Thievery (Dex) - as Theft in Pathfinder, no Open Locks
I just think Thievery sounds better. Open Locks remains a separate skill.
Use/Disable Magical Device (Cha) - Use Magic Device + magical traps
Mostly as in 3.5/OGL. I added the word "Disable" because it seems like in many adventures, PCs have to shut down the eldritch device before it's too late. Mostly they use magic stuff, but sometimes they want to sabotage it as well. If a rogue were trying to disable a magical trap, I would make them use this skill instead of the regular Disable Device. Even if the word "Disable"? isn't in the skill title, I think a bit about disabling in the skill description would be nice. Plus, "Use/Disable" goes nicely with the next one ...
Use/Disable Mechanical Device (Int) - Disable Device - magical traps, no Open Locks
Mostly as in 3.5/OGL. Characters may run into enough complex mechanical devices that a skill check would be useful. Mostly this is a way to expand Disable Device into something more than just foiling traps without adding Open Locks. It includes foiling traps, but also sabotaging clockworks and rigging non-magical machines to malfunction. As noted above in Use/Disable Magical Device, I would pull disabling magical traps out of here and add it there.
OK, I will add my system here too.
The System
1) Every class gets a list of favored skills and a specific number of skill points each level (depending on the number of total skills!)
(NO x4 at first level necessary!)
2) A skill point may be spend in any existing skill to a total maximum of the characters level (on a 1on1 basis).
3) If the character chooses a favored skill (of ANY of his classes!), he immediatly gains a +3 class bonus for that specific skill (class bonuses do NOT stack!).
(+3 chosen for compability. But might be +4 or +5 too)
4) If a non-favored skill later becomes a favored skill due to multiclassing, the character automaticly receaves the +3 class bonus for any of these skills, he got at least one rank in.
(might consider improving one such skill per new level or something)
5) The feat Skill Training may be taken multiple times, granting an additional skill point per character level (retroactive too!)
(Since this could mean one more skill at full level, it's a middle way between the original rules (no additional skills) and the Pathfinders way)
WHAT'S LEFT OPEN
I left the skill list and the number of skill points unclear on purpose,
since there are other threads who still discuss the skill list and I posted my ideas there.
Fact is, the skill points per class should be tailored to the length of the skill list. Every class should basicly be able to buy and max out their true core skills.
I forgot to add one thing:
6) Only permanent improvement of INtelligence grants an additional skill point (retroactive too!)
(While not that realistic, it's just one big thing for simplicity!)
My four-point system:
1) Everything not on this list remains the same as 3.5
2) All skills are class skills for all for all classes.
3) Permanent increases in intelligence grant retroactive skill points equal to (level + 3).
4) Skills no longer have synergies.
So, what are the consequences? A character's total ranks in skills always equal his total skill points. His skill points for every level on his character sheet always equal (class skill points + Int modifier), with ×4 for first level. So the only things you need to know when allocating or double-checking skill ranks are his first class, his current levels, his current Intelligence, and if he's human or not.
Have a Rogue 3/Sorcerer 2/Barbarian 3/Ranger 2/Druid 3 with an Intelligence of 14? Then he has 120 total ranks in skills, with a maximum rank of 16 in any skill. (If he's human, he's got 136 total ranks.) The skills can be whatever's appropriate to the character.
Does this lower differentiation between classes? A tad. The great differentiation betwen a fighter and ranger in skill is still that the latter gets three times as many class-based skill points a level; that the fighter can take Move Silently doesn't change that. Nobody can out-skillmonkey the Rogue with 8/level, and Trapfinding still makes him the go-to guy on traps.
Combining the last 2 posts is what we're now doing in 3.5; it works great. Reducing skill points to take into account combined Pathfinder skill headings might be along the lines of:
Fighter, Cleric, etc.: 2 per level
Barbarian, Monk, Druid: 3 per level
Bard, Ranger: 4 per level
Rogue: 5 per level (they get more mileage out of combos; 6 per level if it tests out that 5 isn't enough).
My issue is that this now makes Int have a disproportionately large effect on skill points, vs. class. Dunno how to ameliorate that.