Thus I vote in favour of DracoDruid's system, and for keeping 3.5 skill points with these improvements.
Seconded.
no skill points need gone there bulky and really unneeded . keep the alpha . rework it if ya most but for the love of the gods please no repainted complex skillpoint system.
If we go back to skill points, all class skills you have from all classes should be considered class skills, cross class skills should cost twice as many skill points, but should have no cap, and multiclassing (if you have a skill that was cross-class for you) and bonuses to intelligence should retroactively give you more skill points.
If the Alpha Release 1 system is kept, cross class skills should have a bonus
calculated like this: 1d20 + character level + ability modifier + racial
modifier, this system should be used, and classes should get new skills/knacks at different rates.
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In this HUGE thread, i thought i would add my own 2 cp.
I like the idea of the Pathfinder RPG system, though i do understand it reduces "character customization." It is simple and easy and tends to flow with most of what my characters do. Pick skills and keep them maxed... they don't throw points around... everyone has exactly the same skills for every rogue, ever wizard, every cleric. On those grounds, the PRPG system works great.
As a DM, making sure my players are calculating skills correctly takes way more time than i would like, especially for new players, or ones that i dont exactly trust. Each time my party levels up, i spend hours just making sure they have the correct number of skills allocated. That bothers me more than creating NPCs. Any new system should simplify things for both players and DMs. Making it easier for DMs to police, as much as for the players to understand.
As an alternative, here is what i do for my groups.
#1. Eliminated all feats that give skill bonuses (to much complication of adding modifiers, and i hate having people that have +15 to a skill at lvl 2-3. At that point, why bother rolling? "aw, i rolled a 3. oh well still got an 18")
#2. Once a skill is a class skill, its always a class skill. (Once you learn to pick a lock or ride a horse, learning it takes no more practice than anything else you know how to do.)
#3. You can never buy more than 5 ranks of a skill at a given time. (keeps a lvl 15 rogue from buying a super high lvl skill from scratch)
#4. Removed Skill synergies (same reason as number 1)
#5. My NPCs have maxed ranks of any skill i feel is important for them. (Granted, this isn't exactly legitimate rule wise, but makes it much simpler to create npcs, and i try to be fair)
Skills are essential to 3.5, that cannot be disputed. But the system needs to be refined.
Damn it I always forget those. So:
1) All skills are bought on a 1on1 basis
2) Cross-class skills are capped at (level+3)/2
3) Multiclass characters tread ALL their classes skills as class skills
4) A permanent IN adjustment changes Skill points retroactively
5) Synergy bonuses are removed for simplicity
I think I got it now...
no skill points need gone there bulky and really unneeded . keep the alpha . rework it if ya most but for the love of the gods please no repainted complex skillpoint system.
Try what's being proposed here, but just max out all the skills: you'll find it's basically identical to the Alpha. The only difference is that you don't have to remember which levels add additional skill selections; instead you remember how many skills you get to bump by +1 each level.
no skill points need gone there bulky and really unneeded . keep the alpha . rework it if ya most but for the love of the gods please no repainted complex skillpoint system.Try what's being proposed here, but just max out all the skills: you'll find it's basically identical to the Alpha. The only difference is that you don't have to remember which levels add additional skill selections; instead you remember how many skills you get to bump by +1 each level.
huh ya lost me just made it sound like you never get new skills only the ones you have go up each level...no thanks
no skill points need gone there bulky and really unneeded . keep the alpha . rework it if ya most but for the love of the gods please no repainted complex skillpoint system.
You know, nobody is going to keep you from using it anyway, no matter what will appear in the final product. You have the Alpha version, you can work it into any other class easily...no need to panic. :) By the way, you do remember how to do "auto-max" with 3.5 skill points, right? Same thing, except characters will have fewer skills than with the Alpha version. Easily adjustable, no math needed. Really, relax. :)
Damn it I always forget those. So:
1) All skills are bought on a 1on1 basis
2) Cross-class skills are capped at (level+3)/2
3) Multiclass characters tread ALL their classes skills as class skills
4) A permanent IN adjustment changes Skill points retroactively
5) Synergy bonuses are removed for simplicityI think I got it now...
If skill points get kept, I could live with this. It really can be simple if you want it to be by just maxing a set number of skills, yet still allows for a diversified character if that is the goal.
The only 'complicated' part left is that it still matters which class you took at first level. I would prefer dropping the x4 skill points at first level and giving a +2 skill points per level boost to all classes but keep the maximum ranks at level+3 and (level+3)/2 for class and cross-class skills.
huh ya lost me just made it sound like you never get new skills only the ones you have go up each level...no thanks
Would you be as keen on Alpha if you only got 1 skill to start, then, so as to balance out skill ranks? I'm wondering if part of its appeal isn't the fact that by starting as a rogue, then multiclassing, by 20th level you're super-awesome at every conceivable skill except maybe Craft and Profession and such. There is NO compatibility in terms of ranks/bonuses between Alpha and 3.5.
P.S. Can I ask you for a favor? I enjoy our correspondence -- it's especially handy for me to see the flaws of the 3.5 system from the POV of a Saga fan -- but it's REALLY hard for me to translate your posts. Use of captials and punctuation would make them a lot easier to read. I know they're a pain in the neck, and I understand you're a guy who likes things to be as easy as possible, so I appreciate that it's a lot to ask. If you don't, that's OK, but I can't promise I'll be as eager to keep reading. Sorry, and thanks for your ideas.
A lot of people have some suggestions on this, so I won't add my opinions. From our last few games playtesting the new skill rules, I had very few issues with upgrading monsters on the fly with the new system. I just had to determine whether they had ranks, increase the ranks to max, and viola. Almost universally, increasing the skills of the monsters to max had no real effect on how the monsters performed because these changes were balanced by the PCs who had Perception vs. the monster's Stealth, and vice-versa.
As to whether the Pathfinder change gave the PCs an unfair edge, all I've noticed is how much more quickly people level up. Knowledge checks usually result in success, people make their skill checks a little more often, but no one is succeeding where they would have failed before. Ultimately, the PCs usually avoid skill checks that could have negative consequences if they fail or take 10 or 20 where possible.
Characters with trained class skills use them to their maximum benefit every time. Characters with trained cross-class skills are less effective using them, but it's not the number-crunching nightmare that it was. Actually training in a cross-class skill is a viable option now for my players that scoffed at taking ranks in something beyond their class's ken.
So, unlike so many, I for one would be sad to see the skills made more complex than they are now under the Pathfinder rules.
Besides my bard player, two of my players are Spycraft fans, and they kind of like the idea of 3 from Jason's original post, i.e. 3.5 for players, modified Pathfinder for DMs, but that's mainly because I found it really easy to stat up NPCs, and because they are used to NPCs having different rules versus PCs. Neither one hates the Pathfinder system, but would prefer skill points of some sort.
My other two players either want to keep the system like 3.5 (since they are already used to it) or they want something really simple that won't take any brainpower to relearn, like Alpha. While some of the new systems are simpler than 3.5, they are still more effort to learn than 3.5 which they already know.
I had kind of warmed up to the Alpha skills, but the more I think about the simplified 3.5 skill system, the more I would rather do a little more work and keep things as "3.5" as possible, than to really do something that deviates a lot from the system itself.
Thinking about this, I really think that the skill system is kind of a microcosm of the 3.5 system itself. By that I mean that, its not a bad system at all, but it could be smoothed out in a few places. What are the biggest headaches about using the 3.5 system as is?
Cross Class Skills: I think the concept needs to stay, but when you have to keep track of what skills are cross class up to a given level when you multi class, and you have to keep track of how many skill points had to be purchased at 2/1 ratio, it slows things down quite a bit.
Which means its a lot simpler to say that cross class skills are just limited to (level +3)/2 than to say that, and that you have to spend the double penalty on them as well. Plus, I don't think that its game breaking to say that once something is a class skill, it remains a class skill. Again, this makes the DMs life easier than 3.5 (if not quite as easy as Alpha), but it shouldn't unbalance anything because you still have to have the skill points to spend on the skill in the first place.
Retroactive Intelligence: If somebody permanently gets smarter, let them have the frigging skill points. Again, it really shouldn't be game breaking, and its not even that hard to picture (there have been many times that I've suddenly felt like something I knew made more sense because I saw for the first time how it related to other facts, and I'd imagine the boost to skill points "in game" to be something like that).
While it wouldn't make things quite as simple as the Alpha method, it sure feels a lot more like 3.5 to me, and it feels like I'm not "cheating" by handwaving the skills that the NPCs have. But it'll be a heck of a lot quicker to figure up.
Also, as far as backwards compatibility goes, its still really easy, under these rules, to see how many ranks you need to qualify for a PrC, and if you still can't boost cross class skills, it still shouldn't change the level at which you qualify for them (but it may allow a PC to pick a few skills other than their prerequisite so that they aren't hobbled by trying to qualify).
Plus, for all of the fans of skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel, this makes it a lot easier to use with that source as well.
I really, really hope that this is the system that makes it into Pathfinder. I didn't mind Alpha, but this would really feel like a streamlined 3.5 instead of a new system bolted onto an old one.
(Just posted this, I know I did. I think the board ate it.)
Actually a PC using the increased number of feats in the Alpha version can have more skill points. Don't forget Open Minded in the Psionics SRD which gives you 5 extra skill points. Although we may want to revise that feat.
Yes — if we go with the Cross-Class cap I say Round Up. It helps stagger the expenditures better. For example a non-human fighter with an Int of 12 could take:
1st (max 4/2cc): Climb 4, Intimidate 4, Acrobatics(cc) 2, Perception(cc) 2
2nd (max 5/3cc): Climb 5, Intimidate 5, Acrobatics(cc) 3, Perception(cc) 2
3rd (max 6/3cc): Climb 6, Intimidate 6, Acrobatics(cc) 3, Perception(cc) 3
If you rounded down...
1st (max 4/2cc): Climb 4, Intimidate 4, Acrobatics(cc) 2, Perception(cc) 2
2nd (max 5/2cc): Climb 5, Intimidate 5, Acrobatics(cc) 2, Perception(cc) 2, Heal(cc) 1
3rd (max 6/3cc): Climb 6, Intimidate 6, Acrobatics(cc) 3, Perception(cc) 2, Heal(cc) 1
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I'm putting these next to each other so we can see what the differences are.
the Epic Meepo System
1) Cost per rank in any skill = 1 skill point
2) Maximum ranks in any skill = character level +3
3) Skill checks:
* (for class skills) = 1d20 + ability modifier + rank
* (for cross-class skills) = 1d20 + ability modifier + rank/2
4) Once a skill becomes a class skill for a character (due to multi-classing or maybe a feat), it remains a class skill, i.e., once a class skill, always a class skill.
5) Increases in skill points due to permanent changes in Intelligence are applied retroactively.
6) Skill synergies are gone.
the DracoDruid System
1) All skills are bought on a 1on1 basis
2) Cross-class skills are capped at (level+3)/2
3) Multiclass characters tread ALL their classes skills as class skills
4) A permanent IN adjustment changes Skill points retroactively
5) Synergy bonuses are removed for simplicity
Agreement on: 1:1 skill points:ranks, cumulative class skills, retroactive intelligence bonuses, no synergies. These points seem to be common to almost every simplified skill point system. There's probably not much point in folks debating these anymore (although they are certainly welcome to).
The current debate seems to focus on how to handle cross-class skills. Epic Meepo has max cross-class skill ranks at level+3 but cross-class skill checks at d20 + ranks/2, while DracoDruid has max cc skills at (level+3)/2 and cc skill checks at d20 + ranks (just like regular class skills). One other way I've seen proposed is to eliminate the ÷2 entirely - ie, no 'ranks/2' in either max ranks or skill checks - but to add a flat bonus (+2, +3 or +4) to all class skills or a flat penalty (-2, -3 or -4) to all cross-class skills.
I'll try to work something up, but what I'd really like to see is one of the many math geniuses on these boards do a comparison of cc skill check = d20 + ranks/2 vs. max cc ranks = (level+3)/2. How do these play out across a couple of levels? Which is closer to 3.5/OGL for backwards compatibility?
huh ya lost me just made it sound like you never get new skills only the ones you have go up each level...no thanksWould you be as keen on Alpha if you only got 1 skill to start, then, so as to balance out skill ranks? I'm wondering if part of its appeal isn't the fact that by starting as a rogue, then multiclassing, by 20th level you're super-awesome at every conceivable skill except maybe Craft and Profession and such. There is NO compatibility in terms of ranks/bonuses between Alpha and 3.5.
P.S. Can I ask you for a favor? I enjoy our correspondence -- it's especially handy for me to see the flaws of the 3.5 system from the POV of a Saga fan -- but it's REALLY hard for me to translate your posts. Use of captials and punctuation would make them a lot easier to read. I know they're a pain in the neck, and I understand you're a guy who likes things to be as easy as possible, so I appreciate that it's a lot to ask. If you don't, that's OK, but I can't promise I'll be as eager to keep reading. Sorry, and thanks for your ideas.
No I just dont get what your saying.I really dont get the changes you keep talking about I want less math not more.There are so may subjected changes I'm lost on to the one ya mean really.I'm not a saga fan really I didn't think I would like the system. But after using it alot I find it a fine system. Now it does need some work.But I find it so much easier then skill points.Now I will give any skill change its fair test but if its just skill points with some paint thew on then it fails as an improvement.
As for how I type well I cant really type and I tend to fire off fast from my head not really thinking about caps and such.I'm A two finger typer really and just takes along while for me to make every thing all pretty.
No offense, but . . . I would much rather roll the d20 and add the bonus than divide the bonus and then add it. What is really gained with the extra step? In the long run I doubt it affects play balance much at all, so why make it more complicated?
Some people are saying that the 1/2 cap should stay and the 1 rank for 2 skill points should go if skill points are used. I'd like to present a dissenting opinion. I believe that the opposite should be true. A cross class skill aught to be able to be raised to the level of a class skill, it should just take more effort.
Some people are saying that the 1/2 cap should stay and the 1 rank for 2 skill points should go if skill points are used. I'd like to present a dissenting opinion. I believe that the opposite should be true. A cross class skill aught to be able to be raised to the level of a class skill, it should just take more effort.
Your proposal beats the snot out of the alternative in terms of logic, I'll give it that. But, we're all bending over backwards here to try and make skill points as easy as possible, so they don't get taken away from us. 1 point for 1 rank is as easy as it gets (outside of abandoning ranks and going Alpha, or simply abandoning skills altogether as a number of poster have suggested: "just roleplay it, man!").
Some people are saying that the 1/2 cap should stay and the 1 rank for 2 skill points should go if skill points are used. I'd like to present a dissenting opinion. I believe that the opposite should be true. A cross class skill aught to be able to be raised to the level of a class skill, it should just take more effort.
I'm not saying that its not logical. I can see the reasoning. But I also think that its counter intuitive to say that sometimes a skill point is worth a rank, and sometimes its worth half a rank. Plus, its just a lot faster to add one point per rank when making something up that is higher level.
I also think that, while there is a logic to what you are saying, there is also a logic to the the idea that someone might practice a skill outside of their normal area of expertise, and then get more time and support in practicing that skill when they take a new class. If you do multi class ever, you just threw out half of the skill ranks you could have spent on a skill that might become useful later, but if you have been trying to spend skill points on a cross class skill before you multi class, it kind of reinforces that you have been working on the concepts of your new class before you took the level.
I think its simpler for players with one point equaling one rank, and its a LOT simpler for DMs. Its not that your idea doesn't have some logic behind it, but its not, to me, the best way to intuitively design the system to work in the game.
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After thinking on things a little more, I think there are a lot of good ideas, but I'd like to throw a couple of new ones into the mix.
Right now I like the Draco Druid system for the most part.
Class skills and cross class skills each cost 1 point.
Retroactive Intelligence bonuses to skill points.
No synergy bonuses.
Rather than class skills max rank = level +3 and cross-class max rank = level+3 divided by 2 (rounded up or down), how about the following.
Class skill: Maximum ranks = Level +5
Cross Class Skill: Maxium rnaks = Level
This works particularly well with some other ideas running around, including eliminating the x4 at 1st level and also allowing characters of lower level to 'master' a skill earlier. There isn't much difference between having a +15 and a +13 in a skill, and since I'm happily in the Up with +5 down with +3 camp, I think this is a good idea.
Of course my idea has the advantage of making cross class skills more effective. Cause at 20th level having a +11 bonus to a skill probably won't help much.
Rounding up does make thing a little easier. But it does kind of go against 3.5's, "Round Down for everything"
It does, but there are plenty of exceptions to that rule. This can easily be one of them.
Right. On a number of threads there are discussions of different skill systems. I wanted to bring up the Otto the Bugbear system here.
Ah, well that makes a lot more sense then. The psot you replied to led me to believe that you were implying that Archon's system was the same as Ottos - glad thats cleared up.
:)
No offense, but . . . I would much rather roll the d20 and add the bonus than divide the bonus and then add it. What is really gained with the extra step? In the long run I doubt it affects play balance much at all, so why make it more complicated?
When you put it that way, I think I agree. It's much easier to just do the one division (to determine cc skill cap) than do it for every cc skill you have ranks in.
There are two main differences I see between the two systems ("max ranks divided by 2 - M/2" vs "bonus divided by 2 - B/2"):
- M/2 results in characters who put ranks in cc skills having more ranks available than under 3.5.
- B/2 results in characters who gain more class skills having a higher bonus than they would under 3.5.
Let me illustrate. Lets say I have a 9th level non-human fighter with no Int bonus, who gains a level and picks up a level of the wizard class. At 9th level he will have 24 skill ranks, increasing to 26 at 10th level. He's a single minded chap and only has two skills that he ever puts ranks in: intimdate & spellcraft.
In 3.5 (the baseline) he will have have 12 ranks in intimidate and 6 in spellcraft. At 10th level this could increase to 13/6 or 12/8 (as Spellcraft is now a class skill and Intimidate is a cc skill).
M/2 means that he will have 12 ranks in intimidate and 6 in spellcraft, leaving him with 6 skill points free to assign to another skill. At 10th level this increases to 13/7 or 12/8, assuming he isn't going to increase the skill(s) he spent his "extra" ranks on.
B/2 means that he will have 12 ranks in intimidate and 12 in spellcraft (for a bonus of +6). At 10th level this increases to 13/13.
And after all that I'm not sure which I prefer... under B/2 the stats/skills of single classed characters will be identical to 3.5. Under M/2 the stats/skills of characters who only put ranks into class skills will be identical to 3.5.
I don't mind multiclassing giving you better skills because IMO it's kind of a weak option under 3.5 and could do with a boost, whereas cc skills tend to be more abused (the old 1 rank in knowledge, 5 ranks in tumble, etc). I guess I'm still slightly in favor of B/2.
Hope that's helpful to people.
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Okay, I don’t think there is any way to show an array of numbers in a post so you’re just going to have to trust me on this, but I calculated out the possible ranks in class and cross-class skills at each level up to 10 for the Epic Meepo system and the DracoDruid system. Then, for each of those possible ranks, I did the skill check formula to figure out what the end result number would be (you know, the little +number you get for each skill to add to the d20). I didn’t do anything with ability modifiers because they should affect both formulas equally.
the Epic Meepo system
Class skills check = d20 + ability modifiers + ranks, max ranks = level+3
Cross-class skills check = d20 + ability modifiers + (ranks)/2, max ranks = level+3
the DracoDruid system
Class skills check = d20 + ability modifiers + ranks, max ranks = level+3
Cross-class skills check = d20 + ability modifiers + ranks, max ranks = (level+3)/2
Obseravation 1 – The Epic Meepo system and the DracoDruid system are identical with regard to class skills. What follows with examine how they differ with regard to cross-class skills (CCs).
Obseravation 2 – When CC ranks are max’ed out, the Epic Meepo system and the DracoDruid system will result in exactly the same numbers. Even when CC ranks are not max’ed out, the numbers you can get as a result of the skill check formulas are within .5 of each other at every level.
Observation 3 – The cost of max’ing out CC ranks in the Epic Meepo system is higher, effectively 2 skill points per 1 rank. However, this is not the same as the gone-forever 2 points per 1 rank in 3.5/SRD because as soon as you multiclass and your CC skill becomes a class skill, you “pop” and get all those ranks back at full capacity without spending any additional points. In effect, the Epic Meepo system allows you to bank away skill points in less-that-optimal CC skills until you activate them later by multiclassing.
Observation 4 – The cost of maxi’ing out CC ranks in the DracoDruid system is lower, 1 skill point per rank. But, because you have a lower cap on CC ranks, and thus more points to spend at any given level, you will have to “waste” them on other skills. This means that, when you get around to multiclassing, there will be no “pop”; you will be able to buy all the ranks you had previously been denied by the lower level cap, but you will not instantly gain them for free.
Analysis – With regard to CC skills, the Epic Meepo system would seem to be better for someone who knew that they were eventually going to multiclass and wanted to store away some points for that class rather than spending them now. The DracoDruid system would seem to be better at each level until you multiclass, or at every level if you never multiclass. The DracoDruid system might also lead to characters with a broader range of skills because they would have to spend their skill points on more skills with points they couldn’t invest in their CC skills.
By the way, just to see how it compared, I also calculated out possible cross-class skill ranks and final modifier numbers for the following cross-class penalty system:
sample cross-class penalty system
Class skills check = d20 + ability modifiers + ranks, max ranks = level+3
Cross-class skills check = d20 + ability modifiers + ranks - 4; max ranks = level+3
Obseravation 6 – At low CC skill ranks, a cross-class penalty system results in much lower numbers (sometimes even negatives!) than the Epic Meepo and the DracoDruid systems.
Obseravation 7 – At max’ed CC skill ranks, a cross-class penalty system results in lower numbers than the Epic Meepo and the DracoDruid systems from levels 1-3, equal numbers at levels 4 and 5, and progressively higher numbers than either the Epic Meepo and the DracoDruid systems starting at level 6. The rate of growth in such a system would be twice as fast as in either the Epic Meepo or the DracoDruid systems.
Obseravation 8: Ability score bonuses will affect a cross-class penalty system considerably; if there were a +4 ability bonus, the player could negate the entire CC penalty.
Analysis – While more severe at lower levels, a cross-class penalty system leads to high modifiers in CC skills than in either the Epic Meepo or DracoDruid systems fairly quickly. At very high levels, the difference between class skills and CC skills would be small.
Nice summary. Actually, you just showed what I was thinking about my DD-system too - that chars tend to (or maybe must) have a broader range of skills, since they (might) have to many skill points left.
On the other hand, I don't really like this "bump" in the EM-System when multiclassing. That just feels not that logical to me.
To be honest, the 3.5 system (with 2for1 costs) are actually the most logical/realistic I fear. But since I think the increased cost is a pain in the ass I don't need, I'm more than happy to sacrife this in the name of the Simplified playing god.
Some time ago I posted another system which just capped all skills to the character level (max rank = level) and gave all class skills a flat +3 bonus when chosen. If multiclassed all new class skills with ranks in would get this bump to (or only one per new level or so).
(Oh and the x4 at first level would be obsolete ofcourse!)
Your numbers mirror my impressions (which weren't really back with numbers) of both systems. My only concern is having a reasonable(rules backed) built in "hand-wave" that allows a DM or Player to just total up skill points and divide them out at a higher level, ignoring when classes were take (save the 1st which isn't so bad).
I know EpicMeepo's system covered this easily, that pre-storage aspect. I'm a little more confident that DracoDruid's system can do this as well, new sheet added to Crazy Human that tries to meet(and does) max ranked skill by 20th level. However I don't feel 100% (or even 90%) safe in saying a DM can just total skill points and divide by the current max rank.
It's why I'd really like a "you can save your skill points" clause added. Not overly realistic and may help min-maxers to some degree, however my rules-interaction-gut is saying that there needs to be a way for DMs to 'bank' those odd ball skill points. At least so there is 100% guaranty that odd ball multiclassed NPCs are legally built. (I need a crazier crazy human, with more detailed skill point target requirements at every level.)
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Proposed modification of the DracoDruid System.
the DracoDruid system
Class skills check = d20 + ability modifiers + ranks, max ranks = level+3
Cross-class skills check = d20 + ability modifiers + ranks, max ranks = (level+3)/2
Proposed Modification
Class skills check = d20 + ability modifiers + ranks, max ranks = level+5
Cross-class skills check = d20 + ability modifiers + ranks, max ranks = level
Explanation - If class skills and cross-class skills should be different, we're not limited in consideration of a level+3/2 cap. Running some quick numbers assuming max ranks in a cross-class skill:
Number of Ranks in maxed cross-class skill 3.5 versus proposed
3.5 Proposed
1st Level 2 1
5th Level 4 5
10th Level 6.5 10
15th Level 9 15
20th Level 11.5 20
Effect: Cross-class skills are more effective at higher levels than they currently are in 3.5. As DCs often scale to the extreme of the spectrum, this makes it more likely that a character who has been purchasing a cross-class skill will have sufficient ranks to have a chance, but against a character with max ranks as a class skill, he will suffer a marked disadvantage.
Under the proposed system after 5th level is where the change becomes most pronounced. Skills tend to become less important for many classes after 8th level due to the frequency of magic use negating their importance. By allowing a higher cap, some skills are more likely to see use because they remain useful at higher levels, even when purchased on a cross-class basis.
This takes all division out of the equation. As simple as it is to divide by 2, making the math easier is a good thing. If we can generally limit ourselves to addition and subtraction (and maybe simple multiplication) we're certainly making things easier.
Note: This system works particularly well with the 'DeadDMWalking Corollary' - eliminate the x4 skill points at 1st level, but grant each class an additional 4 skill points per level over their 3.5 counterparts (12 for rogues, 10 for rangers, 8 for barbarians, 6 for fighters and wizards). Even with a higher cap, most classes will have fewer skill points at 1-3rd level (and with a high Int modifier perhaps as late as 10th level), but each player or DM will have more flexibility in assigning skills. Fewer characters will 'auto max' since that will tend to leave skill points left over, but it is very easy to add skill points at each level (requiring under a minute - seriously) or to assign them at high levels (calculate total skills, divide as you see fit).
This helps to retain the distinction between class and cross-class skills, makes the math easier still, and has one other important effect. In 3.5 there was little difference between a class and cross-class at low levels, but they were very obviously different at high levels. This 'balances' their use at all levels since the gap between class and cross-class remains constant, and does not grow larger over time.
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My only concern is having a reasonable(rules backed) built in "hand-wave" that allows a DM or Player to just total up skill points and divide them out at a higher level, ignoring when classes were take (save the 1st which isn't so bad).
I agree. I think the things we all seem to agree on (1:1 skill points:ranks; once a class skill, always a class skill; retroactive intelligence bonuses; no synergies) get us most of the way there. And because Epic Meepo and DracoDruid diverge after ranks are calculated, neither system gets in the way of totaling skill points and dividing them into max ranks; Epic Meepo affects how ranks are expressed and with DracoDruid you'd have to keep track of max ranks in class skills vs. CC skills, but all ranks are calculated the same in both systems/
Actually, the only thing that does still get in the way of just totaling and dividing is the fact that 1st level is different, so you have to know what level a high-level NPC took 1st and calculate accordingly. That's why I agree with DeadDMWalking about getting rid of x4 at 1st level. I know you saw it Dorje, but for anyone else, I called it the DeadDMWalking Corollary when I put all my ideas together in the Alternative Systems [complete] thread. With 1st level just like every other level you really do get a big pool of undifferentiated points to build high-level NPCs with without needing to let PC who advance one level at a time roll over unused points.
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DeadDMWALKING Proposed Modification
Class skills check = d20 + ability modifiers + ranks, max ranks = level+5
Cross-class skills check = d20 + ability modifiers + ranks, max ranks = level
Interesting. I tried that flat cross-class skills penalty system where I removed the divisor from the skill check formula, but I wonder what removing the divisor from the max ranks will do over lots of levels. I'll take a look for myself if I get a chance today.
In the flat penalty system characters started lower but the rate of increase was much faster (if you graph rank vs. level, the slope of the line for Epic Meepo and DracoDruid is 1/2 and for a flat penalty system it's 1). They tended to catch up when level = penalty. I'm guessing your level cap with no ÷2 would do something similar, but I'm sure there are nuances that I won't see unless I look at the possible skills point spread at all levels. Hmmm ... interesting.
I think we're getting close to something really good here. Now, if only Jason is paying attention ...
Ok but what about my/the other suggestion in capping all skills at character level and only assign a flat bonus (intuitivly +3 for BWC) on class skills.
Any downside on this?
Or we just make all skills class skills for every one and ged rid of it all together. Since classes do get different amounts of skill points and each player will likely by those skills first they might need for their class there is actually no big thread, or am I just blind?
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Ok but what about my/the other suggestion in capping all skills at character level and only assign a flat bonus (intuitivly +3 for BWC) on class skills.
If I read your idea right, it would be very similar to the cross-class penalty system I tried:
sample cross-class penalty system
Class skills check = d20 + ability modifiers + ranks, max ranks = level+3
Cross-class skills check = d20 + ability modifiers + ranks -4; max ranks = level+3
Except it would be:
possible DracoDruid class skill bonus system
Class skills check = d20 + ability modifiers + ranks +3, max ranks = level
Cross-class skills check = d20 + ability modifiers + ranks; max ranks = level
The differences compared to the one I did would be:
1) All die roll modifiers would be higher - 4 higher for CC skill checks and 3 higher for class skills.
2) Because of the lower max rank cap, characters would spread points out across more skills to use them all.
Analysis) This system would seem to eliminate the negative effects of a flat bonus or penalty on lower-level characters (remember that the system I tried was pretty harsh for levels 1-3). It would, however, result in even higher die roll modifiers at high levels (3-4 points). And the rate of growth would still be faster than in 3.5 because the max rank cap is no longer divided by 2. I was already concerned about this upward point creep, even in the flat penalty system. A flat bonus model pushes skill modifiers up too far and too fast for my tastes, but if one is looking for high skills at high levels, then it might work for you.
PATHFINDER & 3.5 gurus; maybe an editor…need some feedback on this one. Been hearing that Flat skills are great for accounting but they suck for customization. I’m working on a middle ground here.
This alternate point-buy method will allow more customization but still has flat base numbers for simplified skill accounting. I’ve been using something like this for a while, but this is a modded from that. I’ve be using it two weeks now and will be for the next few on my new sessions.
There are basically eight skill level categories; four levels of skill (Untrained, Able Trained, Trained, and Expert Trained) and two general categories (Class or Cross-Class)
Use Table 5-1 in the Pathfinder RPG Alpha for conversion.
Skill Choices are converted points (dependent on class). To convert, double the Skill Choices number and label them as points. (for example a Human Rog 1, 14 Int would get 22 points (8+1 human+2 Int mod)
At 1st level a player may spend one or two points on any skill, and up to four on any one skill to be Expert Trained, based on the point buy for Class or Cross-Class listed below. Only one Skill per five levels may be Expert Trained. i.e 1-5 =1 total, 6-10 = 2 total, 11-15 = 3 total.
At 2nd level and every even level thereafter a player gets 2 points to spend on his character. The player can spend only 1 point on any one skill with the exception of spending both points on a Trained skill to make it Expert Trained (whether Class or Cross-Class). (again, limit expert trained to 1 skill per five levels)
If a player multi-classes, any Cross-Class skills purchased to Able, Trained or Expert in their previous class(es) automatically shift to Class Skills for the math (this assumes the character was already ahead of his peers in the previous class and had a working knowledge prior to the new class. Probably taking some time to hone these skills better…another method might be to charge a player 1 pt to get this skill up to par or maybe waiting until level 2 in the new class is reached…DM choice).
Total Point Cost for Skill Levels
0 pts = Untrained
Class or Cross-Class skill
1 pts = Able Trained
Class Skill (1d20 + ½ Character level* + 3 + ability modifier + other** modifiers)
Cross-Class Skill (1d20 + ¼ Character level* + 3+ ability modifier + other** modifiers)
2 pts = Trained
Class Skill (1d20 + Character level* + 3 + ability modifier + other** modifiers)
Cross-Class Skill (1d20 + ½ Character level* + 3 + ability modifier + other** modifiers)
4 pts = Expert
Trained Class Skill (1d20 + 1½ Character level* + 3 + ability modifier + other** modifiers)
Trained Cross-Class Skill (1d20 + Character level* + 3 + ability modifier + other** modifiers)
*always round down
**other modifiers are synergy, race, feat, enhancement, competence etc.
Any Ideas???
Well since it would incorporate the elimination of the x4 at first level, characters would start with the same amount of skills as if they had maxed them out under 3.5
Furthermore class skills would even have the same bonus through all levels.
Again, only cc-skills would be a difference. Since while start with a maximum of one rank at first level, they soon can get nearly as good/high as class skills, since the +3 flat bonus won't be that important at a certain level. But then again, maybe we wan't that?
Think about my other idea of eliminating cross-class mechanic altogether and let players buy what skills they ever want!(?)
We already discussed this methode and (most of us) saw it as no real improvement to an optimized 3.5 skill point system.
Since Pathfinder likes to use side bars, lets just concentrate for now on improving the skill point system.
If this is done, we have at least one finished system that could be incorporated into the next release.
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Besides: The f***ing forum ate my post again!
Ok but what about my/the other suggestion in capping all skills at character level and only assign a flat bonus (intuitivly +3 for BWC) on class skills.
Any downside on this?
Or we just make all skills class skills for every one and ged rid of it all together. Since classes do get different amounts of skill points and each player will likely by those skills first they might need for their class there is actually no big thread, or am I just blind?
I don't hate it, but I'm not sure that it really adds much to the game, other than to change something from the way 3.5 does things. I know there have been people that have worked up how many skill points add up at what level for what system, and that is great, but I'm not sure its the best argument for changing something.
One of the reasons that I like keeping the cap at (level+3)/2 is that its familiar to 3.5 players. It may not matter to a new player, but often its more of a pain for a system to be too similar in some regards and completely different in others than to learn a new system. The "old way" that is attached to that rule keeps popping into mind, like Word trying to tell you how you want to format a paragraph.
I really don't like dropping cross class altogether. It doesn't "feel" 3.5 to me, even if it doesn't change much in practice in the rules. I'd much rather there would be some kind of mechanic to show why fighters aren't good at the same things that rogues are.
pres man's Crazy Pathfinder Skill Idea:
*Use the SAGA skill idea of train or not train (no skill points).
*At first level, character gets number of trained skills based on class.
*There are three levels of training: untrained, semitrained (hd+3)/2, fully trained (hd+3).
*Class skills trained at first level are fully trained, cross-class skills at first level are semi-trained.
*A skill that is semi-trained can be trained again and made a fully trained skill (spend 2 skill choices on it).
*Every Prime Numbered level (2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 11th, 13th, 17th, 19th), the character can semi-train a new skill, at this point whether it is class skill or not doesn't matter, or can upgrade a semi-trained skill to a fully trained skill.
Note: I have intention of playing the Pathfinder version whatever that finally is, so please understand this is merely a mental exercise for me.
Note2: The prime number level things was because at multiples of 4 players get an ability adjustment and at multiples at 3 they get a feat, so I thought I'd hit the levels that were neither for the most part (sorry 10).
EDIT: Boards wouldn't let me in for a bit, but took the post.
My prefered modification to the 3.5 skill system (only changes are mentioned):
1) Cleric, fighter, paladin, sorcerer, and wizard get 4 + Int mod skill points
2) Monk gets 6 + Int mod skill points
3) Class skill lists are revised similar to the Alpha Release
4) Cross-class skills still cost 2 ranks for 1, but do not have a lower rank limit
5) Skill consolidations similar to the Alpha Release (my preferences below)
Acrobatics = Balance + Jump + Tumble
Deception = Bluff + Disguise
Legerdemain = Escape Artist + Sleight of Hand
Linguistics = Decipher Script + Forgery
Mechanics = Disable Device + Open Lock
Perception = Listen + Search + Spot
Stealth = Hide + Move Silently
6) Language (specific) skill with two or three levels of fluency (basic, possibly fluent with accent, and idiomatic) plus literacy (barbarians are not literate in their starting language(s) but can learn at any point) as a class skill for all classes.
7) Include the Maximum Ranks, Limited Choices alternate system as a side-bar; combined with 4) above, "spending" two "skill choices" on a cross-class skill makes it effectively a chosen class skill
8) Feats that allow cross-class skills to be designated as class skills (Knack (<named skill>)) and allow extra skill points (+1 per level, with an extra +3 if taken at 1st level)* for specific skills (Advanced Training (<named skill>))**
*- If using the alternate system in 7), then skills gained by this feat are at -2 on checks (unless gained at 1st level) to simplify things
**- For "meta-skills" (Craft, Knowledge, Perform, Profession), possible variants (Able Crafter, Broad Knowledge, Natural Performer, True Professional) may allow the skill points to be spent on multiple specific Crafts, Knowledges, etc. in the same "meta-skill"
My prefered modification to the 3.5 skill system (only changes are mentioned):
3) Cross-class skills still cost 2 ranks for 1, but do not have a lower rank limit
I think this is the kicker that the proposed skill systems are trying to avoid - because it means that to make up a high level character you need to advance them one level at a time (unless they're single classed).
I think this is the kicker that the proposed skill systems are trying to avoid - because it means that to make up a high level character you need to advance them one level at a time (unless they're single classed).My prefered modification to the 3.5 skill system (only changes are mentioned):
3) Cross-class skills still cost 2 ranks for 1, but do not have a lower rank limit
The alternate system in 7) of my revised post covers this (Multiclass Characters).
The option for "choosing" a cross-class skill twice to effectively gain a class skill is another way of gaining some of the benefit of the Skill Knowledge feat in the alternate system (two class skills can be gained as "extra" choices OR one cross-class skill can be gained as an "extra" class skill choice), but without needing to actually use a feat. My proposals in 8) can work as replacements for the Skill Knowledge feat in the alternate system, treating "extra" skill choices from feats the same as normal skill choices. Granted, my options are less powerful than Skill Knowledge, but I designed them with the skill point system in mind.
When creating high-level multiclass characters using skill points, I usually treat each class as discrete "level blocks" (x levels in 1st class grant x * (s1 + 3) skill points, y levels in 2nd class grant y * s2 skill points, etc.) instead of assigning skills on a per level basis. The only times I usually track skill points each level are if I need to track skill rank prerequisites for a prestige class.
I think this is the kicker that the proposed skill systems are trying to avoid - because it means that to make up a high level character you need to advance them one level at a time (unless they're single classed).My prefered modification to the 3.5 skill system (only changes are mentioned):
3) Cross-class skills still cost 2 ranks for 1, but do not have a lower rank limit
I might also point out that as long as things like Feats have prerequisites based on base attack and/or level, then people are still going to have to level characters up on a level by level basis.
Why isn't this a poll?
My opinion:
Option 1 (Pathfinder): I don't like it at all. Fighter1/Rogue19 versus Rogue1/Fighter19 syndrome.
Option 2 (3.5):I could always go with the old way, which can easily be fine-tuned (consolidated skill lists like we see in Alpha, and a general increase of skill points - maybe 4 across the board)
Option 3 (Combination):, So this is out of the question I'd like to keep things consistent.
Option 4 (Hybrid): Since this doesn't address the problem that classes woudldn't mean anything at later levels, I don't like it, either.
Option 5 (Scaled): Looks promising. I think rogues should still have a slight edge over Bards and Rangers, but I could live with this system.
Option 6 (Scaled Hybrid): Could live with that, too. I guess Skill Focus would be going away, being replaced by something that grants you another skill rank or two?
In summary:
The old 3.5e system could work, or you go with Scaled or Scaled Hybrid.
Actually I think I'll actually test Scaled Hybrid!
The alternate system in 7) of my revised post covers this (Multiclass Characters).
Not entirely - by my reading you still need to figure out the order in which a multiclass character has taken each class, as it will impact on the number of trained skills they have. Admittedly it's a much lesser impact than standard 3.5 skills, but the B/2 system doesn't have this problem.
On reflection, I think the M/2 system might also have the problem that which level a skill becomes a class skill is important. Otherwise a character could allocate more skill points to a skill that later becomes a class skill (essentially not "wasting" skill points as per my previous example).
I.e: Making up a lvl 9 fighter/ lvl 1 wizard would mean that they have 26 skill points and both intimidate & spellcraft would be class skills. A niave approach would be to allocate 13 ranks to each skill, but this would actually be illegal because spellcraft only just became a class skill, meaning the maximum ranks that shoul be allocated to it would be 8 (12/2 = 6 for the 9 levels of fighter +2 for both skill ranks earned at 10th level).
Realising that, I think it's clear that the B/2 system (aka Epic Meepo) should be preferred.
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DeadDMWalking Proposed Modification
Class skills check = d20 + ability modifiers + ranks, max ranks = level+5
Cross-class skills check = d20 + ability modifiers + ranks, max ranks = levelInteresting. I tried that flat cross-class skills penalty system where I removed the divisor from the skill check formula, but I wonder what removing the divisor from the max ranks will do over lots of levels. I'll take a look for myself if I get a chance today.
In the flat penalty system characters started lower but the rate of increase was much faster (if you graph rank vs. level, the slope of the line for Epic Meepo and DracoDruid is 1/2 and for a flat penalty system it's 1). They tended to catch up when level = penalty. I'm guessing your level cap with no ÷2 would do something similar, but I'm sure there are nuances that I won't see unless I look at the possible skills point spread at all levels.
Yeah, I tried the skill point spread at a few levels and the final modifiers got pretty big. Class skill were always better the CC skills, but after a while both got pretty high - higher than in 3.5/OGL and too high for my liking. But like the flat bonus system DracoDruid tried earlier today, if you're looking for high skills at high levels, then it might work for you.
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Okay, some conclusions on my part.
Thus far I have been a big fan of the Epic Meepo system. It was the first simplified skill point system that really brought everything together and grabbed everyone's attention. Bravo. I am still a fan of most aspects of the Epic Meepo system - 1:1 rank:skill point; once a class skill, always a class skill; retroactive Intelligence bonuses; no synergy. At this point, I take these a essential givens for any system.
But after doing the math and looking at some point spreads, I have to admit that I now prefer the way DracoDruid handles cross-class skills. Epic Meepo differentiated between class and cross-class skills by using two different formulas to do skill checks:
Class skills: d20 + ability modifiers + ranks
Cross-class skills: d20 + ability modifiers + (ranks)/2
Whereas DracoDruid did it with the cap on max ranks:
Class skills: max ranks = level+3
Cross-class skills: max ranks = (level+3)/2
Both systems work fine and actually result in the same die modifiers. There are two things about the way the DracoDruid system arrives at these modifiers that I like better.
1) While real ranks cost the same in both systems, effective ranks are twice as expensive in the Epic Meepo system, meaning players have less points to spend if they buy CC skills. I'm fine with that, but as soon as a player multiclasses in Epic Meepo and a CC skill becomes a class skill - POP! - all those suppressed ranks come back all at once. I can justify that as sudden insight into old skills, but I'm already using that to justify the extra skill points gained from retroactive Intelligence bonuses. Don't get me wrong, I could live with it, I just prefer the way DracoDruid's level cap works. It's easier to dabble in CC skills because class and CC skills use the same formula, but you can't get too good at them. And when you multiclass in DracoDruid and can start getting good at your old CC skills, there's no sudden jump; you can buy more ranks now, but at the same rate as before.
2) I like the simplicity of one formula for all skill checks: d20 + ability modifiers + ranks. Plus, there is precedent for the (level+3)/2 as that was the CC level cap in 3.5/SRD, so it should be familiar to most players.
[Someone recently brought up the point that all points are not exactly the same in DracoDruid and one can imagine some high-level builds that could break the rules. I can't see his post right now but I think it was a fighter 9/wizards 1 w/ 26 skill points. Jump and Spellcraft are both class skills so 13 points each, right? Well ... up until 9th level he could only have had Spellcraft 6 and when he added wizard he got 2 more points. Even if he put them both into Spellcraft he should only be able to get up to Spellcraft 8, not 13. Absolutely correct, but how often is a DM going to build an NPC like that? Less often than a player is going to multiclass and "pop" into suddenly being a lot better at a skill in Epic Meepo. So, no, DracoDruid's cross-class system isn't perfect but I prefer it's flaw to others.]
*) Several people have also recently suggested flat bonuses or penalties in the skill check formulas or level caps with flat level+Xs in attempts to simplify and get rid of all the ÷2s. These work fine as well, but the rate at which ranks increase is much faster than in 3.5/SRD and too fast for my liking.
So that's it. Epic Meepo is great in many ways but I prefer how DracoDruid handles cross-class skills - (level+3)/2.