I'm hoping so - I didn't notice any mention of synergies on the new skills, so I am hoping they will be dropped in the pfRPG. While they may be "realistic", they are in truth a pain to remember and track, ending up being one of the things often wrong in NPC stats.
As an aside, will the -6/+4 bonus in Jump due to base movement be lost? That's another annoying obscure rule as well.
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well since there is no way to get 5 ranks in a skill then you have no way to have a synergy bonus. I actually liked synergy bonuses and dislike the overall approach to skills. but this is the Alpha release so it might change as time goes by. That is the best part of this we have a say in how the rules will come out. Perception been using it, acrobatics been using it. fly didn't see a need yet, but then again I have an athletics skill which covers such things including climb and swim too.
I think some of the need for synergies went away with the combination of skills. Jump, balance and tumble are all part of acrobatics now, right?
So I'm not sure about movement rate and jumping. I guess it still makes sense that more speed means more distance. But it should increase your balance.
I always use a spreadsheet that auto calculates bonuses, but it can be a pain to remember. I made a high level Monk for a con run, and I was like wow, did that crazy jump mod come from?! Oh yeah, fast movement.
The spreadsheet was made by someone way more clever than me and has over 4MB of data in it to figure stuff out. It hasn't failed me yet.
Sorry, what's this about a Jump modifier for having Fast Movement? I just checked the PHB and I can't see what you're referring to.
3.5 PHB, page 77, second paragraph under Check: in the Jump skill description.
Or from the SRD Jump Skill;
Your Jump check is modified by your speed. If your speed is 30 feet then no modifier based on speed applies to the check. If your speed is less than 30 feet, you take a -6 penalty for every 10 feet of speed less than 30 feet. If your speed is greater than 30 feet, you gain a +4 bonus for every 10 feet beyond 30 feet.[/url]
I would still allow synergy bonuses to class abilities. So being trained in Knowledge (religion) would give a +2 bonus to turn undead, Knowledge (history) +2 to bardic knowledge, Handle Animal +2 to Wild Empathy and so on.
But skill to skill synergy would be gone and isn't really needed considering how much more generous this system is than the skill point system.
I think skill synergies are nice in theory... that theory being that it takes into account related concepts and is simpler than gurps when it comes to correlating skills.
In practice: it's still too complicated, and where it is used, it's used to minmax, or causes lookups.
I think something more GM-driven would work well. If the DM decides a second skill would help for a given task, you get a synergy bonus. But a static table of bonuses that you have to look up and only makes sense in certain circumstances doesn't do much for me.
Synergy isn't that complicated. It's +2. How is that complicated?
(Cannot believe I didn't know about the Jump modifier for running.)
Because it's not simply a flat +2 if you have 5 ranks in a related skill. A lot of times it's "+2 if you have 5 ranks in a related skill and a specific condition or application is used". For details, see the table in the SRD Wiki and see for yourself how many synergies are pretty specific. That makes it a burden to keep in mind, or look up every time.
Because it's not simply a flat +2 if you have 5 ranks in a related skill. A lot of times it's "+2 if you have 5 ranks in a related skill and a specific condition or application is used". For details, see the table in the SRD Wiki and see for yourself how many synergies are pretty specific. That makes it a burden to keep in mind, or look up every time.Synergy isn't that complicated. It's +2. How is that complicated?
(Cannot believe I didn't know about the Jump modifier for running.)
Um... and soon as you look it up and write/type it on your character sheet the complication ends. Someone could just as easily say that spellcasting and feats are unnecessary complications to the game.
Remembering synergies is like trying to track spell components, not the spells themselves. They're more a pain for DMs than players. Flipping through the book as you make a monster or NPC, trying to remember who gets what synergies when is as annoying as looking up every spell when making an NPC to see if the spell has a long casting time, an expensive component or an XP cost.
I wasn't a fan of synergies... To me, they were just another way to boost Diplomacy up to an insane level and talk enemies into defeat.
EDIT: And, honestly, I don't think any of my players even know about them besides the resident power gamer.
I wasn't a fan of synergies... To me, they were just another way to boost Diplomacy up to an insane level and talk enemies into defeat.
That's another thing:
This effect is pretty much acknowledged so: why let them break the stacking rule?
I think some of the need for synergies went away with the combination of skills. Jump, balance and tumble are all part of acrobatics now, right?
So I'm not sure about movement rate and jumping. I guess it still makes sense that more speed means more distance. But it should increase your balance.
I always use a spreadsheet that auto calculates bonuses, but it can be a pain to remember. I made a high level Monk for a con run, and I was like wow, did that crazy jump mod come from?! Oh yeah, fast movement.
[threadjack]I know! I played a barbarian/monk/druid. The druid level was a variant in phb2, which gives 50ft base speed. So I had speed of 70ft in animal form. Jump modifier was crazy indeed. [/threadjack]
I also think I wouldn't miss skill synergies, but I think fast movement should still affect jump.
Um... and soon as you look it up and write/type it on your character sheet the complication ends. Someone could just as easily say that spellcasting and feats are unnecessary complications to the game.
Yeah, sure, would be nice and easy with a flat +2 bonus to another skill. I don't know what kind of character sheet you use, but mine doesn't have another big column in the skills part to write down the circumstances under which this +2 is granted for many skills. :)
Is why I keep saying, simplify synergy bonuses. I would love to keep them, even the stacking variant, for the simple reason that it keeps people from trying to buy skill enhancers for all and sundry.
I would still allow synergy bonuses to class abilities. So being trained in Knowledge (religion) would give a +2 bonus to turn undead, Knowledge (history) +2 to bardic knowledge, Handle Animal +2 to Wild Empathy and so on.
But skill to skill synergy would be gone and isn't really needed considering how much more generous this system is than the skill point system.
Wild empathy is basically gone. Or training animals as part the handle animal skill is gone. If wild empathy could be used to train animals it might stick around, basically as a free skill to druids and rangers. With this system a handle animal check is d20+ability mod+level. Guess what? That is wild empathy. So much for that class feature.
Synergies are a good idea, my biology suffers because my chemistry sucks. I can agree the conditional makes it difficult, but I rarely bothered with the conditionals. They are mostly from the overcomplicated skills anyway (bluff I am looking at you). Besides I have a pen and plenty of time between sessions.
If this was really bothersome, you will probalby hate the perceptions bonus for taste/sight/smell etc. of all non-humans. And rage. Rage must stink for you. Charging arg what is my damage now? Eagles splendor? why would I want that, the turning tables are too complicated as it is. Soap box? What soap box--ok stepping off now. (though still wishing for wild empathy to get a nod. :)
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Something I suggested elsewhere based on an idea by Lordzack:
The Lordzack Synergy Compromise
Skill synergies could work like Aid Another. You roll the first skill check (using the 'helping' skill) against DC 10 and if you succeed you get a +2 bonus on the second skill check with the main skill. Which skills synergize and under what conditions is up to the DM.
One of the nice things about this "compromise" is that if you don't like it, you can just forget about it and it won't screw up any calculations. It's there for the people who want it and goes away for those who don't.
Good idea, I vote for it.
But only under one permission: No actual list for this. Let players argue/propose their DM and let him decide (and be somewhat generous)
[SNIP]only under one permission: [/SNIP]
I think you meant condition there.
I think Wild Empathy should be like Identify - an add to the skill, rather than an entirely seperate skill or ability. Also, did Animal Handling remain it's own skill? It seems that it shares enough with Ride for them to both be condensed into one skill.
I think there should be limits both to Aid Other and Synergy. I've seen too many INSANE skill mods. I would propose making Synergy
1) a flat bonus, either you have Synergy or you don't, and
2) case-specific, based on what you're doing with the skill (or upon what, or WITH what, in some cases), and
3) CLASS BASED SYNERGY: Fighters should be able to appraise weapons, clerics should be better at diplomacy rolls with followers of their deity, etcetera. This seems more 'real' to me than Know(Arcane) and Know (Divine), which honestly should be Profession(Wizard) and Profession(Cleric).
Oh, I sprained something there in my mind. Now I'm thinking that all classes get a free Profession skill. Ow, ow... wait... not ow... I think I'll actually use that one.
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Something I suggested elsewhere based on an idea by Lordzack:
The Lordzack Synergy Compromise
Skill synergies could work like Aid Another. You roll the first skill check (using the 'helping' skill) against DC 10 and if you succeed you get a +2 bonus on the second skill check with the main skill. Which skills synergize and under what conditions is up to the DM.One of the nice things about this "compromise" is that if you don't like it, you can just forget about it and it won't screw up any calculations. It's there for the people who want it and goes away for those who don't.
I use this system currently. It works quite nicely. Also helps add some more relevance to profession and craft skills.
Adds a tiny bit more rolling, but also prevents weird calculations for skills, makes the players feel like their characters can do a bit more, promotes some creative thinking, and makes my job as DM of building dozens of NPCs much much faster and cleaner.
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Good idea, I vote for it.
But only under one permission: No actual list for this. Let players argue/propose their DM and let him decide (and be somewhat generous)
That works well. I have a lot of seafaring in my campaign, and profession: sailor is more than just making the boat go now. I'll often let some characters snag a temporary synergy bonus to, say, acrobatics while on the deck of a ship.