In a game I'm running one of my PCs may be reaching the end of his life due to enemies he has made and one of his fellow PCs agreeing to sell him out to save his own life. It's just that kind of game and things are brutal.
Originally the three men after the PCs were level 6 fighter/rogues based around dirty tricks and poison and were used against level 7 gestalt PCs as part of a much larger encounter... and now the PCs are level 10, likely 11 before the assassins meet the player in question, and are pumped up.
The PC who is the target of the hit is a Dervish Dancer Bard/Knife Master Rogue/Duelist mix has an AC of 25-low 30s depending on his prep time, but 27-29 is usually standard. He hits quite hard, normally for 1d4+ 10-20ish depending on buffs as well. 15-20 crit range of course.
I'm trying to come up with a group of three to face this PC... and I'm not necessarily saying they have to lose. I want to make it so it is stacked against the player, but not impossible for him to win. With that in mind I'd like some suggestions for how to build this trio.
Some general guidelines:
1. They will engage the player when he is inescapably alone, most likely in a soundproofed basement alchemy lab setup he has. They will likely approach him before attacking as they want him to know fear before they cut him up.
2. Something dirty trick related would be good on at least one as they demonstrated proficiency in that area before.
3. Full casting classes are out, but 6th level casting classes are ok.
4. Levels for the trio are debatable, but probably 8-10 for each. Gestalt optional.
5. Up to PC level wealth is allowed for each.
So how would you do this? Right now I'm considering two as Bounty Hunter Slayers 8 who focus on Dirty Tricks and Shatter Resolve and a Dirty Fighter/Rogue 9 with a the same build but also specializing in trip and disarm. That seems a bit too bland to me though.
For inspiration, I think of the fight scene from Eastern Promises.
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How about ball-o-arms man? No no I kid.
How about an orc dirty fighter net user, built right he could entangle, blind, trip, and other dirty trick goodness.
Could combine well with a Trip focused hunter teamwork combo, maybe some feinting in here too.
Hm not sure about a 3rd though a grappler would be funny.
I recommend a barbarian with savage dirty trick and a cavalier of the order of the hammer who combines a big weapon and unarmed strikes, using the latter to activate his enforcer feat.
The barbarian uses his savage dirty trick (that can't be ended early) to soften the target up and prepare him for his buddy.
The cavalier (doesn't have to be single class) can make free sunder attacks vs the target of his challenge and could use that to make the target's weapon and armor broken. When he uses unarmed strikes (nonlethal) he deals damage as a monk of his level would, working wonders with enforcer.
In the worst case the target is now temporaryly blind, staggered, shaken and weaponless before the third guy even starts doing stuff.
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Brawler/Ninja (Scout) with Pummeling Style is a surprisingly nasty gestalt, and very appropriate thematically. At level 10, they can have Invisible Blade and be even scarier. Makes a very solid primary damage dealer, with decent skills to boot, and poison if he wants it. Can flurry with shuriken if he needs a ranged attack...or just wants to make, like, five attacks with poisoned shuriken.
Slayer (Vanguard)/Investigator is also pretty nasty (+6 each to to-hit and damage at 8th level, make that +8 each at 10th, starting the second round at the latest), and has some very nice thematic synergy as well. With Infusion, he can also be the group's healer, and with sky-high Int and Teamwork Feats he's their leader and mastermind to boot. Toss on Student of Philosophy (and Empiricist if you're skipping poison) and he's their face, too. You could also use the Mastermind Archetype for flavor, if you wished.
For the third, you could go with almost anything. Lore Warden/Tetori is probably the most brutal non-caster I can think of off the top of my head...but that's likely an insta-kill all by itself, and thus excessive.
If you really want a third guy with poison, an Alchemist (Vivisectionist)/Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) would both have that, and be vicious as hell. So maybe go with that. The three together wind up pretty frightening on a number of levels, actually...
Have a smoke-based team of Oracle dipped classes do it. The Waves, Fire, and Winter mysteries all have revelations that allow them to see through Obscuring Mist/Fog Cloud, and if you have them cast Solid Fog, the Rogue is at a heavy disadvantage (his SA won't work in the fog). The Oracles only each need one level in Oracle for that revelation, you can have them do anything else for the rest of their levels.
There are a lot of ways to make a 3 v 1 really unfair, even if the mobs are underleved. Tucker's Kobolds are a classic example of this.
hmm... i like the sound of this, lol. thinking about the encounter backwards- you want the 3 (N)PCs to have a pretty good chance to win against a level 11 gestalt, so level 8 gestalts should be a good fit (level 9 or 10 should almost certainly win, so its up to you how brutal you want to be).
for fighting dirty, i'd suggest a fighter [lore warden/martial master]/monk [maneuver master]. they get free maneuvers in any full attack (even if wearing armor/using non-monk weapons), have probably the best bonuses to maneuvers, and with martial flexibility can grab maneuver feats they don't already have.
for actually incapacitating him, i'd suggest a fighter [mutation fighter]/rogue. they're doing the engaging so mutagen (and other longer duration buffs) will be active. give him an earthbreaker. use his tons of bonus feats for bludgeoner, sap adept/master, and enforcer. whenever you get sneak attack (which should be often with 2 flanking buddies, one of whom is capt maneuvers) you deal like 8d6+16 and demoralize before any of the actual weapon/str/power attack/etc! granted, that's non-lethal damage but once he's unconcious they can execute him (or take everything he owns and leaving a threatening note about what happens next time if he doesn't make things right with their organization).
for a leader, maybe a cavalier [musketeer]/bard? he'd be a solid, well rounded guy who: makes sense as a leader; buffs the others (and himself) even stronger with performance, tactician, and spells; and can open the conversation by shooting the PC in the gut (which is a very 'you pissed off the wrong kind of people' way to start a conversation).
now, all this would make for a truly brutal encounter for the PC, but it sounds like that's what you're looking for ;)
let us know what you settle on and how it works out!
Have a smoke-based team of Oracle dipped classes do it. The Waves, Fire, and Winter mysteries all have revelations that allow them to see through Obscuring Mist/Fog Cloud, and if you have them cast Solid Fog, the Rogue is at a heavy disadvantage (his SA won't work in the fog). The Oracles only each need one level in Oracle for that revelation, you can have them do anything else for the rest of their levels.
There are a lot of ways to make a 3 v 1 really unfair, even if the mobs are underleved. Tucker's Kobolds are a classic example of this.
I suppose ifrits with fire sight would be the best for that if you can't go oracle.
Similar idea-Tieflings with the fiendish sight feat (twice, since it gives you See in Darkness then)
You could have an inquisitor with deeper darkness in there too (hey, there are plenty of gods of murder; at least a few of them might have their own services, or offer some personnel to the local assassins guilds).
Would shadow dancer help? Preferably, it would be [something] x/shadow dancer 1. Getting to shadow dancer 3 and having a shadow going around dealing lethal strength damage would be a problem. You just want to have the ability to use stealth in battle. You can use spring attack with restealthing, right? Maybe with some nice reach weapon?
So many interesting concepts... I definitely need to think about it and thanks for the suggestions so far.
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gestalt heh? three man hit squad? 6th level is okay? Alright, here come the bounty hunter trio:
Male Aasimar Summoner (Synthesist)//Fighter (Martial Master): Use an eidolon which looks like an angel giving him a golden aura/golden glow. A terrifying combatant who adapts to the combat situation.
Male Half-Orc Fighter (Cyber-Soldier)//Vivisectionist (Alchemist): Mixing technology and alchemy with his extensive knowledge of the human body to cut his opponent like butter.
Female Tiefling Mastermind (Investigator)//Bloodrager (Abyssal): While usually calm and collected, forming master plan for her crew, she can enter a bloodrage which reveals her demonic origins and destroy her opponent.
Do you want him dead, a tough fight, or other? There are a number of ways to have your PC dead with his build at that level. Clarification requested.
I'm looking to make a very tough fight, one that has a good possibility of killing him but without making it so hard that I could replace the fight with "just hand me your character sheet so I can rip it." It's like I want him to have the chance to turn it around if he does things right and/or gets lucky, but I don't want him to just walk all over it. The NPCs in question have gotten some hype, so I want them to live up to it. Overall I guess I'm not overly concerned about whether the PC lives or dies so much as I am about wanting it to be close either way.
As side note, if the NPCs win they will probably become business associates with the PC who betrayed this PC to them.
Why a shadow dancer with shadow would be a problem ?
How is it any different than a Mage casting ray of enervation/ vampiric touch etc ?
The shadow automatically comes with a few natural advantages that a caster would need several spells (and maybe some build specific abilities) to replicate. And those would likely require several turns to use.
First, shadows are incorporeal. That means 50% miss chance against most magical weapons. A party could get past that since they would have casters that could theoretically use force damage or channel positive energy against it. This is a duelist/bard-ish type character by themselves, and as such the options are limited. That is not exactly fair, and goes against the 'he should have a chance' rule.
Their physically state also means they can go into the walls or floors without any problems, which allows it to escape even if a large amount of damage is used.
The other main problem here is that the strength damage is actually lethal. The GM can't have some GMPC burst in and save the knocked out PC after he realizes that the scenario was too hard. And as a duelist/bard type character, his strength it probably rather low and he might not have any enhancement items for it. While there are certainly options on the wizard list that can cause a similar scale of problems, this is a non AoO drawing action from a creature that is already hard to hit. You might as well say that the entire party (yes a party of 1, but this is again the problem of solo) is getting a constant 1d6 con damage per round for the danger this presents.
And remember, there are 2-3 other characters in the scenario trapping and smacking this guy around while this is happening. The shadow alone vaguely seems like a level appropriate challenge due to how troublesome its abilities would be for the build.
If you have a magic weapon you just deal half damage; there is no mischance. If you don't have magic weapons you can't affect it.
Incorporeal isn't so much the issue as the other points. Though it would go down fairly easy in a turn or so, the character only has 10 strength. Plus it's already 3v1 so adding the Shadow would just hurt him even more in the action economy department.
I do love Shadows and the party will learn to hate them even more than they already do in time, but I think this particular event wouldn't be good for them to make an appearance.
Right now based on the comments I'm thinking maybe:
1. Ninja/MoMS Monk 2/Full BAB class with Pummeling Style, though I'd probably not give him Invisible Blade, just Vanishing Trick. I see it as the guy dancing around, in and out of invisibility, and delivering sucker punches when the PC least expects it. Perhaps he wouldn't even act every turn, to give the PC a fleeting feeling that he may survive before crushing it.
Order of the Hammer Cavalier also seems like an awesome suggestion for this guy, so perhaps that would fill the Full BAB side.
2. Lore Warden/Maneuver Monk for the Dirty Trick specialist, and hey, why not take disarm and trip too? He would be the one kicking the PC in the side as he tries to crawl to safety and stomping on his blade hand.
3. The Inquisitor/Monk suggestion stands out to me as well, but now I'm thinking maybe go with the Destruction -> Torture domain. I'd see this guy as mocking the PC and wanting to savor the experience of killing him.
Should the PC be knocked unconscious, I imagine this guy would be the one in charge of the off screen bad things that happen after... ever play through the Dark Brotherhood questline in Oblivion? Remember what your boss looked like at the end when the other leaders decided he was a traitor? Yeah...
Not sure how I would do the monk though. Perhaps Martial Artist and give him a weapon? I'd be worried about his to hit against the PC, but he is with two debuffers.
bard/ranger - the tracker
bloodrager/brawler(mutagenic mauler) - the tank\killer
Investigator/Inquisitor - the back up(for both)\healer
If you have a magic weapon you just deal half damage; there is no mischance. If you don't have magic weapons you can't affect it.
Incorporeal isn't so much the issue as the other points. Though it would go down fairly easy in a turn or so, the character only has 10 strength. Plus it's already 3v1 so adding the Shadow would just hurt him even more in the action economy department.
I do love Shadows and the party will learn to hate them even more than they already do in time, but I think this particular event wouldn't be good for them to make an appearance.
Whoops, got my 50% wrong. Too many of those thrown around in a shadow fight for me to keep track (50% damage, 50% chance of corporeal spells working....and no shadow dancer worth their salt fights in sunlight, so you often have lighting to deal with so that means concealment; etc.)
Still, I agree, well played shadows (particular a shadow dancer's, since they are more durable with half its master's hp, and all of their saves and BAB) seem less like the thing to put on a team of skilled thugs to take out nosy interlopers, and they seem more like the thing that the assassin team sent to take out a king or important general might have hiding in the walls as a nasty surprise if they are interrupted.
Something big and kinda finall-y, basically.
So the builds aren't set in stone, but I've been thinking about tactics based on the current idea and wanted some thoughts on how "fair" you would consider this.
So I see it as the assassins will be waiting in the character's lair, essential a basement under an inn that some disreputable people the party killed to take over the inn used as an alchemy lab/torture cellar. Sound proofed obviously.
PC will begin doing his thing when from around the corner he hears the sound of an axe being dragged across stone, and out will walk the first assassin, the Inquisitor/Monk.
From up the stairs, the only exit, he will hear a lock clicking into place, and then behind him he will see the Dirty Trick specialist staring at him, just having broken Invisibility (via gear) and who is now stowing his wand of Arcane Lock (special made with a higher caster level).
They will stare the PC down and wait for him to make the first move or attempt to reason or beg. And then the last assassin, the Ninja/Cavalier Grappler who was invisible will let go of his readied action and begin garroting the PC (really just grappling him, but flavor wise a garrote has to be involved... maybe one with barbs and poison).
Initiative. If the Grappler wins, he will move to pin. The others will walk over and ready to help maintain the grapple (with vicious kicks of course).
From there, with the PC helpless, instead of coup de gracing they will focus on debilitating him, permanently. Taking off most of the fingers on his favorite hand (-2 to attack and damage rolls, +1d6 bleed per round). Stomping him in the face to break his jaw (30% spell fail chance for verbal spells, i.e. all for bard, and a -2 to save DCs). Cumulative minuses per mutilation due to intense pain. Stuff like that. It's beyond the scope of the rules, but if the PC is helpless I see it functioning like a lesser coup de grace.
From there they may let him up, the Ninja going invis and waiting to intervene, while they taunt and fight him, but obviously not fairly. Dirty Tricks from the Dirty Trick guy, breaking his gear, tripping him. Mainly just destroying his ability to carry on a meaningful existence before killing him.
Way I'm seeing it is that this will give the PC more chances (though with diminishing returns) to make something of the situation and turn it around than if I just went for straight HP damage (which is always an option if he gets the upper hand), and it will also be thematically appropriate as these people have a personal grudge against him.
Thoughts?
As long as the player is alright with this. I mean, you're gonna kill his PC, and realistically, his build likely isn't gonna do much of anything about it. (If he was a full caster, maybe, but...)
We're really in the 'cry foul' territory. If you run your table like Call of Cthulhu, that's fine, just make sure the player understands that first.
As long as the player is alright with this. I mean, you're gonna kill his PC, and realistically, his build likely isn't gonna do much of anything about it. (If he was a full caster, maybe, but...)
We're really in the 'cry foul' territory. If you run your table like Call of Cthulhu, that's fine, just make sure the player understands that first.
You make a good point and I wouldn't even consider doing something like this... except we're running Slumbering Tsar. It's meant to be rather deadly and so far in 12 sessions about 7-10 or so PCs have died (though mostly the same player, with the same stupidity). The PC facing the assassins has actually been involved with several of the deaths. He's killed 2 PCs directly, killed one through an ill conceived wish with a demonic force, and led 2 into an ambush that resulted in their deaths. I think he may be a bit disappointed if he dies, but he knows full well he's had it coming lol.
So I ran my hit squad per my previous post. PC died after hilariously giving himself the tools he needed to win and then ruining them.
After a mission he returned to town and met up with a female NPC that likes him and is a high ranking member of a group of ranger-guides, a level 10 ranger/Empyreal sorcerer... he convinces her to come out and check out his new bedroom setup. Ah yeah. Also the PC knew a hit was coming out of game, so he managed to find an in-character reason to have backup for it. I can't fault him there.
They go to his lair, the sound proofed basement of an inn, now turned brothel, and he and his friend start talking. And then they hear the axe being dragged and the lock being turned as the previous post mentioned.
PC gets a poison vial ready in his hand and hides it. It is Tears of Death. He asks the assassins to let the woman go because she isn't part of this and they don't want to anger the rangers. Unsaid, he wants her to get help. The assassin with the axe says they won't kill her, but she isn't going anywhere until their work is done.
PC throws the poison at one on the stairs and the assassin fails, but unfortunately Tears of Death has a minute onset. He then barely escapes being grappled and the fight begins. The grappler and disabler do their thing and the PC is status effect'd up, but his friend cuts off the axe guy by casting Wall of Light to keep him out of the fight.
The joys of having a full caster with you. PC might have been able to pull it off, except for one horrible mistake. He pulled out another poison, Nightmare Vapor. And he threw it out around him. He makes it, the disabler makes it, the man garroting him makes it. His full caster, the one who could have helped him turn the tables, fails it. And continues to do so.
For the next 4 rounds of the fight she keeps on failing and stays confused. She ends up kicking the PC in the face (he looked like some sort of nightmare beast emerging from the ground), hurting herself (Aaah the bugs are burrowing into my skin!), doing nothing (omg where did the bugs go... are they inside me?!), and then hurting herself again (they are in my skin and I have to get them out!). Thank you Nightmare Vapor.
And then the PC went unconscious, but not before nonlethal coup de graces break his jaw and loses him most of the fingers on one hand. They subdued the full caster while she was in no condition to fight them off and knocked her out while they slowly killed the PC and hung him from the ceiling. They left the girl on the bed unharmed mostly with a note saying it was nothing personal against her and the PC was the target.
We rolled out the Tears of Death against the one assassin and came to the conclusion that it killed him, so that's something. Until after the session I looked at the axe man's inquisitor spells known again and realized I gave him Lesser Restoration. And the NPC would know that even if I didn't, so the PC didn't get a retroactive kill after all.
On the bright side he is now super excited about his new character, a psychic warrior/aegis.