As a person who has been strongly pro-4E for a long time, I have to admit that I'm dismayed by this turn of events. Where the pro-3.5 camp has their conflict resolved, I think the conflict for me is just beginning.
Here's the thing - Paizo's decision is the one thing that can make me re-think my decision to go with 4E. I've already downloaded the Pathfinder RPG Alpha file and started looking through it, and I intend to stay a part of this process. I'll also still get the 4E books when they come out. I'll start converting Rise of the Runelords to 4E, but now I'll have to look at it more seriously through these Alpha rules as well. And it'll probably be quite a while before I'll be able to tell what I'm ultimately going to do.
I'm scheduled to run some 4E-intro events at my FLGS over the next few months, and with this announcement, I fully intend to run some introductory Pathfinder RPG events there as well. (Paizo - please make some sort of FLGS support for the release a priority.)
I think I already know what could ultimately make me choose Pathfinder, however. One make-or-break rule-change that would make me embrace the Pathfinder RPG ruleset enthusiastically, and without which I’m afraid I probably won't ever be able to.
If there is any way possible at all, I'd like the Pathfinder ruleset to include quick monster-creation rules, and a simpler write-up that can exclude unnecessary details. You know, what they're claiming they've accomplished for 4E, where you know what abilities to put together for the CR and the type of challenge, and you only create what you need for the encounter in question. I know we don't even know how 4E accomplishes this yet, or how well it will work. But that is the single item that sold me on 4E.
I am NOT saying that this has to be the only way to make monsters and NPCs. But I think it is an essential option. Without something to make the DM's job easier, I just don't think I can go back to playing the game – I’m that burned out on it. So, for what it's worth, that's my wish for the Pathfinder RPG. Make this one happen, and I believe that I'll end up not only joining the Pathfinder RPG crowd, but also bringing my entire gaming group and my local FLGS with me.
NOTE: This is not a "do this or I stop being a customer" scenario. Nobody makes adventures like Paizo, and even if I choose 4E in the end, I strongly believe I'll continue to buy Pathfinder and convert the adventures. This would just turn it into a matter for wholehearted enthusiasm rather than anxious compromise.
Cintra - if you are willing to participate in the process, why not suggest how simple you'd like these to be?
In other words, take a simple creature - say, an orc, and decide how simple you'd want monster creation to be.
For example, how about:
Orc:
1. Choose "to hit" bonus and pick a weapon (See recommended hit bonus per level chart)
2. Set hit points (See recommended HP per level chart)
3. Set special abilities (see special ability chart and adjust for level)
4. Set a desired AC and Save Bonuses (see recommended per level chart), then see chart and choose possible armor/magic combo that matches AC and saves.
Ta-da!
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Another thing that really slows down monster/npc creation are calculating and assigning skill points. I usually ignore this, unless it's going to be a recurring villain. I generally have an idea what a creatures skills will look like in my head, so I just sort of 'wing it'
And on an unrelated note : CINTRA I LOVE YOUR NAME :)
If there is any way possible at all, I'd like the Pathfinder ruleset to include quick monster-creation rules, and a simpler write-up that can exclude unnecessary details. You know, what they're claiming they've accomplished for 4E, where you know what abilities to put together for the CR and the type of challenge, and you only create what you need for the encounter in question. I know we don't even know how 4E accomplishes this yet, or how well it will work. But that is the single item that sold me on 4E.
Pathfinder RPG will be an open game (whereas 4e won't entirely be), so if Paizo doesn't provide such rules...you or someone else can!
Another thing that really slows down monster/npc creation are calculating and assigning skill points. I usually ignore this, unless it's going to be a recurring villain. I generally have an idea what a creatures skills will look like in my head, so I just sort of 'wing it'
Skills:
Skill level for a particular skill = 1/2 creature's HD + ability score mod
Skill level for a particular skill you want them to be skilled in = HD + ability score mod
(If you don't want to worry about ability scores, presume ability score mod is always +3)
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I agree that simplified monster creation would be a tremendous benefit. What about a table-based solution, like the sample NPCs for each class in the DMG? So if you wanted to make an outsider to challenge a 7th level party, you'd look on the outsider table, go down to the 7th row, and read across to see what its expected AC, attack bonus, average damage, saves, etc. would be. This could be combined with a simplified form of templates (maybe also presented in table form to avoid recalculation) so that you could quickly customize the expected stats for your L7 outsider to make it a bruiser or an artillerist.
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If there is any way possible at all, I'd like the Pathfinder ruleset to include quick monster-creation rules, and a simpler write-up that can exclude unnecessary details. You know, what they're claiming they've accomplished for 4E, where you know what abilities to put together for the CR and the type of challenge, and you only create what you need for the encounter in question. I know we don't even know how 4E accomplishes this yet, or how well it will work. But that is the single item that sold me on 4E.
Second.
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Not that this is helpful but You guys are Great after all the "recent unpleasentness" here we have a 4E fan recieving advice and encouragment from these boards that have been descibed as "hostile to 4E fans". I love you guys!
Skills selected by Monster Type should work well, select the 2 or 4 or whatever class skills and as said before HD+ability mod, don't worry too much about synergys or item bonuses since you are just working on a quick monster.
Since I have been playing around with Iron Heroes, I have found the Villian classes to be very Interesting. They allow you to quick create opponents (and one use NPCs) by using their CR as their level. The rules break some of the basic guidelines in the Monster Manual, but it works for a encounter.
Here is an Iron Heroes fan created villian class:
And here are some created for use in D&D:
The great thing about a villian class is that typically it can be dropped on top of a monster. Just adjust the ability scores of the class by the creature's racial modifiers and add the CRs together.
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Since I have been playing around with Iron Heroes, I have found the Villian classes to be very Interesting. They allow you to quick create opponents (and one use NPCs) by using their CR as their level. The rules break some of the basic guidelines in the Monster Manual, but it works for a encounter.
Here is an Iron Heroes fan created villian class:
And here are some created for use in D&D:
The great thing about a villian class is that typically it can be dropped on top of a monster. Just adjust the ability scores of the class by the creature's racial modifiers and add the CRs together.
Those are rad. Thanks!
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This might sound like a counterdiction but I would like to see both. A set of rules to make much more complete and complex monsters and NPC's when needed. And rules for making up fast quick mooks that can still be a challenge. I know a hard thing to build a game that can do both.
I think I read that implied earlier. Anyway, as long as the way in which creatures are presented isn't *completely* re-baked, adding class levels to them should be the same as it is now.
I agree with you and would really just like to see guidelines and charts on rapid creature advancement/building for 3.5. I'm unwilling to do it myself, apparently. :D
I'd love to see a simplified monster creation rule in the Pathfinder RPG, so I definitely get where you're coming from.
Jason Bulmahn, consider the gauntlet thrown down!
A couple of thoughts have crossed my mind on this. One way might be to redo the NPC classes in a manner of the villain class I mentioned above. The NPC classes are not used frequently and having a simplified class that grants a set of abilities balanced for a given CR might be useful in quick NPC design for every thing but the major bad guys (and give the NPC classes more playtime).
As for creatures, a quick way to do skills would be CR+3 in trained skills (as opposed to HD+3). This would give a Worg trained skill totals of Stealth +7 and Perception +7, and an untrained total of Survival +4 (+8 when tracking by scent). These totals are close to the skill levels that a Worg already has.
Creatures with class levels (NPC or PC classes) would get level +3 for skill totals instead of CR+3. The number of trained skills could be listed by creature type (maybe animals begin with only one trained skill) and individual creature write-ups would list only trained and relevant non-trained skills (such as the Worg's survival skill).
I just now had the chance to check back on this thread. To be perfectly honest, I was expecting people to slam me for this request, and instead I find support and ideas. Thank you, all of you - this is why this is the best messageboard community ever!
For most monsters/mooks, what do you need? AC, hit points, saves, any special defenses; attacks, damage, any special attacks; probably not much else.
Except the rules interact with things oddly so you have to know more. For example, a standard Ogre - you need to know he has 29hp, but also that he has 4HD in case certain spells are cast on him. If we eliminated spells that only affect certain HD (or affect different HD differently), we'd be able to cut that from the stat block. So a lot of the monster stat-block simplification may require broader rules-changes...hmmm, this gets messy.
And I'm really going to have to think about what I'd like to see for quick-NPC creation, in particular.
I can imagine that, if nothing else, we could create a guide to quick, but still creative, assembling of NPCs from various components. The sort of thing that lets you create the complex NPC but still only the bits you need.
Example: A high-level spellcaster(using any race or even a monster). I can imagine a system where I can just choose the top few spells that he's likely to cast, and then a "package" of adjustments to apply based on common sets of lower-level spells he might have active. (Similar to the equipment packages for 1st level PC, but with spells.)
So I decide I want to use a "Defenses" package and my NPC will have had warning to cast his buff spells. In this NPC's level range, Defense Package 1 includes Mage Armor, Shield, Mirror Image, Haste, and Invisibility (I poached this list from Xanesha, Pathfinder 2). The package could list the included spells, and beside each, its stat block modification:
Defense Package 1
Mage Armor (AC: Armor +4)
Shield (AC: Shield +4)
Mirror Image (d4+ CL/3 images)
Haste (AC: Dodge +1)
Invisibility (50% miss chance*)
*ends when character makes an attack.
Director of Games
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I'd love to see a simplified monster creation rule in the Pathfinder RPG, so I definitely get where you're coming from.
Jason Bulmahn, consider the gauntlet thrown down!
Gauntlets thrown, I have whips cracked in other threads.. I am getting abused here.
That said.. I am working on it. I too would love simpler monster creation rules, especially for "on the fly" usage.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Here's the thing - Paizo's decision is the one thing that can make me re-think my decision to go with 4E.
I know this isn't your main point. But others have addressed that already, so I'd like to touch upon this.
Don't let it make you re-think your decision.
Seriously.
Paizo is calling for fan support to provide 4th Edition conversions. So, accept both the PRPG, and 4th Edition into your plans. Then you can also be a part of your own support for 4th Edition.
That is, unless PRPG just wins you over... I don't want to pressure you into doing anything you don't want to.
I'd love to see a simplified monster creation rule in the Pathfinder RPG, so I definitely get where you're coming from.
Jason Bulmahn, consider the gauntlet thrown down!
Gauntlets thrown, I have whips cracked in other threads.. I am getting abused here.
That said.. I am working on it. I too would love simpler monster creation rules, especially for "on the fly" usage.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Don't think of it as abuse -- think of it as "trial by fire."
If you succeed, you'll be showed with honors and praise the likes of which few game designers have ever seen! This is your chance for glory!
SEIZE IT, JASON! SEIZE IT!
HUG YOUR DESTINY!
*cough* Sorry, started channeling The Tick there. But you get the point. ;)
-The Gneech
I'd love to see a simplified monster creation rule in the Pathfinder RPG, so I definitely get where you're coming from.
Jason Bulmahn, consider the gauntlet thrown down!
Gauntlets thrown, I have whips cracked in other threads.. I am getting abused here.
That said.. I am working on it. I too would love simpler monster creation rules, especially for "on the fly" usage.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Another vote for that here!
I still get nightmares from Escape...