Why I care about 4e & why it’s as valid an opinion as yours.


4th Edition

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There’s a lot of suggestions floating around these days about how those in the “anti-4e” camp should shut up, go elsewhere, and not “bring down the discussion”. There’s a whole lot of accusations about how the 4e “haters” are attacking and giving Paizo a bad image yet they give the pro-4e “zealots” a pass for exhibiting the exact same behaviors.

In fairness, although I’ve tried to ignore the urge to go from 4e debate to 4e battle, I’m sad to admit that I did succumb and ended up taking shots at Crosswiredmind when one of his pro-4e volleys dismissed the notion of any good OGL games. Not one of my finer moments, I’ll admit.

With the latest batch of "isn't Paizo better than this?" I tried to just chalk it up as just so much more noise. I've failed. Enough is enough. Until such time as the “Can’t we all just love 4e” crowd recognize and acknowledge that the 4e-zealots are just as guilty of being offensive as the 4e-haters, your credibility is zero. No claiming the high ground. Methinks thou doth protest too much.

Many of us that are against the move to 4e or on the fence want to discuss it, to debate it, & hear DIFFERENT points of view. I’m a relative newcomer to the Paizo forums, basically since the Dragon/Dungeon announcement. I use to spend a lot of time at ENWorld. No longer. Discussion and debate are largely quashed by those in the pro-4e camp. What little time I spent on the WotC boards showed an environment even less open to discussion.

For all the labeling, name calling, trolling, and threadcrapping by the more ardent fans of 4e, the following question did make me pause. “If you aren’t going to migrate to 4e, why do you care?” When I stopped and thought about it, I didn’t really know the answer. I stopped visiting all RPG messageboards for a while, wondering if it really was just a waste of time. I’ve given it some thought since then, done a little soul searching, and come up with my answers. There were going to just be my answers until all this “move on” and “silence the dissenters” crap started cropping up.

So for all of the 4e fans who’s delicate sensibilities have been offended by arguments (as in opinions supported by specific reasons, examples, and facts) against 4e, feel free to move on to “friendlier” ground. For those who truly might wonder why someone would exert so much effort talking about a game they don’t intend to support, please read on. If you agree with 0% of what follows, your opinion is valid and you’re welcome to say so. And if by some chance, you’re on the fence or feeling like a grognard (probably b/c someone called you one), if you recognize some of the following as being similar to your experiences, let me know too.

RPG’s ARE A PASSION FOR ME, NOT JUST A HOBBY
RPGs may be a hobby, but it’s one that, as corny as it sounds, has had a defining impact on my life. I’ve been playing RPGs for 22 years – I’m 37. I was hooked from the first time I opened my red D&D Basic rulebook. I found an incredible outlet for my imagination & creative endeavors and not only could I share them with my friends, I could develop, collaborate, & experience them with my friends like nothing I’d seen before or since. When you are the GM, you invest a significant portion of your free time to the game. Bottom line – I’m going to have strong opinions about RPGs, even when common sense tells me it’s “just a game”.

THE D20 ENGINE, D20 LICENSE, AND THE OGL REVOLUTIONIZED THE RPG INDUSTRY.
I too, undertook the Grail quest of many DMs – the search for a better RPG. For lack of a better term, my players and I outgrew 2E AD&D – they wanted something closer to the fantasy novels and short stories we all read. We sought out grittier systems, toolkit systems, etc. and had loads of fun along the way. But that was from a mechanics standpoint. Most of our settings were ones that were developed for D&D, like Greyhawk & Birthright. 3E, and more importantly, the OGL license provided the best of both worlds – the ability to tinker with D&D settings, classes, and monsters without having to develop all the options ourselves. It was only after I saw that the d20 engine could support genres other than D&D (yes, it’s its own genre of high fantasy) through OGL games that I returned to the D&D fold. WotC got lots of money from me BECAUSE of 3rd-party games and books.

I DON'T LIKE THE WOTC DESIGN TRENDS OF THE PAST FEW YEARS.
I applaud the 3e developers and designers and WotC for the incredible 3e game. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. But it got a whole lot right and was clearly a labor of love. 3e seemed to me (and maybe it was just perception) that it was about restoring D&D to its former glory and surpassing it. And I think it succeeded. I stopped getting that vibe a while ago with some of the later 3.x supplements and I definitely don’t get that vibe from 4e. I see “refreshed” sales & new revenue streams being the primary motivation. I see more change for change’s sake than true revolutions in game design.

Now before you go off the deep end, I’m a capitalist. I don’t think WotC or Hasbro is an evil corporation. If they make a superior product or products, I wish them all the success in the world. But I don’t want to be forced to upgrade b/c your edition sales are down or you want to compete with MMO games for subscriber dollars or b/c you want a younger demographic at the expense of the current customer base. You may be the 800 lb. gorilla, but I’m not a captive audience. The upcoming GSL doesn’t seem to be shaping up to further open gaming. Granted we don’t know much, but what we’ve heard doesn’t sound encouraging for 3rd-party companies.

If there’s the slightest chance that some argument I make on a RPG forum will cause them to alter course to something more in line with what I’d like to see – by adding my voice to others who share my opinons - I’m going to take that chance.

I'VE GOT TOO MUCH INVESTED TO SWITCH, BUT I STILL WANT TO BUY NEW STUFF.
I’m married with wife and kids. Although this hobby is my passion, it’s still getting disposable (and therefore precious) income from me. I have 1000s of dollars in OGL, d20, and D&D books, settings, and adventures. Do I have enough? Maybe – do you? That part’s irrelevant. I like buying new supplements and adventures. If every game company is only putting out 4e, I’m out of luck. I can’t justify continued purchases on stuff I can’t use. The beauty of the d20 and OGL license was that I could tweak with minimal effort. Not so with 4e.

I WANT PAIZO (& OTHERS) SUCCESS TO BE INDEPENDENT OF WOTC/HASBRO.
This one’s a biggy, folks. I got a lot of love for Paizo, the RPG company that could.

Love it or hate it, 3.5 burned a lot of people, customers and 3rd-party publishers alike. I didn’t come back to D&D until after 3.5 so I didn’t feel the pain personally, but my favorite publishers surely did.

The Dragon & Dungeon takeback sucked. Yup, it was WotC’s right to do so. Yup, they gave Paizo advance warning. Still sucked. They pulled the bread-n-butter products away from a company that was developing stuff that directly supported their game. In many cases, by most accounts, their stuff was better than what was coming out of WotC.

Prior to that announcement, I had never purchased a Paizo product. Dragon & Dungeon were D&D magazines and I’m focused on OGL and d20 games. But I started visiting the Paizo boards to see what their customers were saying. This could have been a death blow for them. I read the Pathfinder teasers. I signed up to be a Pathfinder charter subscriber as soon as I saw it announced. Why? Because in those teasers I saw a setting that excited me like none in recent memory. Because on those forums I saw a commitment to customers and a willingness to communicate with them that I NEVER saw exhibited by WotC. I saw a company that refused to lose b/c they were dealt a crappy hand and they turned it around because of their love for the game and their commitment to their customers. I became a Paizo convert before the first Pathfinder arrived at my door.

I want Golarion to be the Greyhawk of my children’s generation (they’re 7 & 2 and I’ll make them gamers as fast as I can). If that means that Paizo can make a Pathfinder RPG that's as good or better than 3.x or 4e, I'll buy it a heartbeat.

I want WotC/Hasbro to have ZERO ability to pull the rug out from Paizo, Green Ronin, Fantasy Flight, or Mongoose. If companies live and die through competition – so be it. But I don’t want the deck stacked against Paizo by any factor other than market share. I’ll put my money on Paizo. Hell, they have it already. :)

So there it is. Too long-winded, I know, but those are my reasons why I care about 4e even though I won’t be running it and probably won’t buy it. And my reasons are just as damn valid as anyone who thinks 4e will be the greatest thing since the d20 die. I thank Paizo for their products, their commitment to their customers, and for allowing me to have a voice. Even when I know half the people here may disagree with me at any given time, I like to think I’m still welcome here.

If any of the above constitute me being a “4e-hater” or have caused undue strain on the one’s ability to preach the 4e gospel, so be it.

Liberty's Edge

here here! I think one of the biggest problems is that the 4E lovers are taking every attack/rant against the system as a personal slight against them for wanting to switch.

Face it, WotC IS marketing to younger more ADHD crowd not as willing to put as much time into the ins and outs of the system (the WoW crowd). You might NOT be one of those people and still like 4E but it doesn't change the fact that that's who their target audience is.

Honestly people are comparing it to MMOs, but the MMO industry itself has been following this trend. Compare Ultima Online and Everquest to WoW and EQ2 and you'll see what I mean. WotC is just applying the trend to tabletop.

Lone Shark Games

Coridan wrote:
Face it, WotC IS marketing to younger more ADHD crowd not as willing to put as much time into the ins and outs of the system

Hey, it went one whole reply before the insults started. :) You don't have to target posters specifically to insult them with such comments. I'm not personally insulted, but I do think it's silly.

Such comments are as ludicrous as '3e is for wargamers who can't handle roleplaying, and its complex character building and bonus stacking are targetted at the MMO* generation who like to spend hours designing character specs'. I like Jonathan Tweet and Monte Cook (and I hear Skip Williams is cool, but don't know him personally) and I highly respect their work on 3e. Similarly, I'm a big fan of Mike Mearls. These guys all had good reasons for the ways they set the system up, and it wasn't in a boardroom going 'I hear 20% of kids are on prozac and rittlin nowadays. We got that angle covered? Okay, good.'

I was avoiding responding to this thread - BPorter wrote a detailed post about why he cares and I applaud him for getting it out in the open in a logical manner.

I'm just not sure why _anyone_ should care. Why does anyone need to go '4E sucks' 'Me too' 'Nuh-uh' and '4E rocks' 'Me too' 'Your mother'. It's silly.

I think what I want is a board split - one with _just_ 'Paizo products through the lens of 4E' for conversions and folks playing or planning to play the products in 4E... and another board where folks can fight with each other, presumably with the intent of swaying Paizo's opinion. More power to them.

* Or CCG. Whatever today's meme is.

Liberty's Edge

Coridan wrote:


Face it, WotC IS marketing to younger more ADHD crowd not as willing to put as much time into the ins and outs of the system (the WoW crowd). You might NOT be one of those people and still like 4E but it doesn't change the fact that that's who their target audience is.

Dude, it's comments like that that get to people and set them off. It may be a true statement, it may not be. You may not mean it as an insult to anyone. Maybe if people are insulted by something like this they are over-reacting, maybe not. But what is the benefit in making comments that you know are going to be inflammatory?

If I were a fan of 4e, I would be offended by the implication inherent in the statement that I like something that is marketed to the "ADHD crowd".

Why not just say "I don't feel that I'm part of the target audience" and leave it at that? Be the bigger person.


Coridan wrote:

here here! I think one of the biggest problems is that the 4E lovers are taking every attack/rant against the system as a personal slight against them for wanting to switch.

Face it, WotC IS marketing to younger more ADHD crowd not as willing to put as much time into the ins and outs of the system (the WoW crowd). You might NOT be one of those people and still like 4E but it doesn't change the fact that that's who their target audience is.

You got the meetings at WotC on tape or something?

Liberty's Edge

I would hazard a guess (I have no facts to back this up) that the intended target audience for 4e is as many people as they can get; including WoW players and non-WoW players, people with attention spans both short and long. Whether they have successfully targeted their entire ‘target audience’ is another matter.


(Editted):
Would it please be possible for posters to reflect before referring to groups of people as 'the ADHD crowd' or the like? If I understand correctly 'ADHD' may officially be some sort of medical condition, but I am getting an impression (whether right or wrong) that 'ADHD' is being used in some posts as an intellectual sneer at those being labelled with it, and this sneering disturbs me.

Liberty's Edge

Charles Evans 25 wrote:
Would it please be possible to stop casually referring to groups of people as 'the ADHD crowd' or the like? If I understand correctly, whilst 'ADHD' may be a medical condition, I am getting an impression (whether right or wrong) that 'ADHD' is being used in some posts as an intellectual sneer at those being labelled with it, and this sneering disturbs me.

Charles, ADHD (I think) stands for Attention Deficet Hyperactivity Disorder, a condition which is fairly widely (and I understand often mis-) diagnosed in children, teenagers and (to a lesser extent) adults these days.

The term is often used colloquially (perhaps due in part to the large percentage of poor diagnoses) to mean people (especially young people) with a short attention span.

And I agree; it seems to be used sneeringly in many cases, and that doesn't sit comfortably with me.


BPorter made a good post. I don't think anyone wants him to leave (I don't know, maybe someone does, but I don't think that's the majority's desire for anyone).

I have to agree with the board's decision to not allow insults or attacks against other posters, companies in the industry, and other messageboards. Such things don't help any discussion. You might have four paragraphs of great material and you add one of the above and that sentence will be what people remember, not the other great things you said.

I don't think anyone should take this board's rules to mean they can't discuss why they don't like 4E.

Sovereign Court

Speaking as someone who has ADD (The Non-Hyperactive Form of Attention Deficit Disorder) and has to take daily medication for it...

Yeah, I'm offended. Actually, no. I'm disappointed, and a little sad.

I'm 33. I've been gaming for 23 years now, and I've played everything from the Boxed sets, 1st edition and on. And now a disorder I've had to fight with for my entire life is being used by someone on a message board to try and imply that people like me don't have any dedication or ability to handle a complex system.

I'm really rather disapointed.

Liberty's Edge

AZRogue wrote:

BPorter made a good post. I don't think anyone wants him to leave (I don't know, maybe someone does, but I don't think that's the majority's desire for anyone).

Yes, excellent post BPorter - and sorry to get hung up on a subsequent poster's comments.

You made some really get points; I can especially identify with the "passion, not just a hobby" point. I imagine that the same is true for a lot of us here, on both sides of the fence, which is just one reason why I think there should be more respect (I'm not asking for agreement) for other people's points of view.


Coridan wrote:


Face it, WotC IS marketing to younger more ADHD crowd not as willing to put as much time into the ins and outs of the system (the WoW crowd). You might NOT be one of those people and still like 4E but it doesn't change the fact that that's who their target audience is.

You know funny enough. I have a really good friend who has adult ADD and another friend who's a huge WoW nerd, and neither of them intend to convert. So if it's WotC intent to market to them, they are failing. Besides everyone knows it's people who play World of Collectible Card Games that's really the target audience.


Talk about 4th Edition here. Politely. Personal attacks or insults directed at other members of the Paizo community, or other companies in the industry, will not be tolerated.


Joshua J. Frost wrote:
Talk about 4th Edition here. Politely. Personal attacks or insults directed at other members of the Paizo community, or other companies in the industry, will not be tolerated.

Go to sleep!


I agree with what Bporter said pretty much entirely and took from it the following about some recent posts.
1- the accusation about insulting behaviour leveled at 'the anti-4e' crowd is probably true but it is not only they who have strayed into this behaviour- I agree (both sides should tone it back a bit)
2- other boards are dominated by pro 4e sentiment and in his view Paizo boards are more balanced - I dont know I rarely visit other boards but IMO there is balance on these boards (but again that doesn't always mean both sides are nice)
3- He wishes Paizo to remain 3.5 becasue it is quality and many others wont. - to be honest IMO this is where the heat comes from -

I lean toward 3.5 over 4. If Paizo dont switch 4e people can get stuff from WOTC 3.5 can get from Paizo. If they do switch the 4e people can get from both and 3.5 will have to hunt for another excellent quality producer. I suspect this makes 3.5 supporters feel they have more vested in trying to convince Paizo to stay 3.5e. Frankly I dont care if the rest of you like 4e - it may be great. I care if Paizo switches cos they make the stuff I like....Though I suppose I want you all to keep spending your money on Paizo products so they can be successful.

All do as I do you wise, clever, strong, dextrous, charsimatic and constitutional individuals!


Coridan wrote:


Face it, WotC IS marketing to younger more ADHD crowd not as willing to put as much time into the ins and outs of the system (the WoW crowd). You might NOT be one of those people and still like 4E but it doesn't change the fact that that's who their target audience is.

There's no need for the ADHD crack- you were making valid points, but people have felt personally slighted and you've ended up distracting everyone from your initial argument.

Yes, I agree Fourth Edition is aimed at a younger market, and maybe the system is not as complex as you'd like (I can't make a call yet based on what I've seen, but I'm leaning towards agreeing). But if going back to a "Red Box" approach and aiming the game at a younger demographic saves the hobby, then fair enough. Initially I was a hater, but most of that was leveled at the corporate structure that has been messing about with the customer base, not the game itself or the designers behind it.
The nastiness that has been building over the past few months on all the boards has turned really ugly lately. Let's remember Role Playing Games are a hobby that makes great memories and bring us all together, and it's just that- a hobby. Not the cure for cancer- it's a game.
I don't think this edition will be my cup of tea, but I'm under no obligation to either play it, or pillory those for whom it is just what they've been waiting for.

Dark Archive

BPorter wrote:

The Dragon & Dungeon takeback sucked. Yup, it was WotC’s right to do so. Yup, they gave Paizo advance warning. Still sucked. They pulled the bread-n-butter products away from a company that was developing stuff that directly supported their game. In many cases, by most accounts, their stuff was better than what was coming out of WotC.

I agree with you on this one. It's very difficult to enjoy a magazine when you have to lug a laptop or use a desktop to read it.

There is a silver lining to this, though. I became involved with the most enlightened gaming community there is on the net.

My figurative hat off to all Paizonians out there.


AZRogue wrote:

Go to sleep!

I certainly don't have time for that.

Dark Archive

This is probably not even the place for this but you know the funny thing is I don't even mind the 4E rules so much, anyone could be guilty of writing flawed rules. It's an honest mistake.
It's the fact that the designers of 4E have become huge ego monsters and have to change everything including the fluff just for the sake of making their mark. They deliberately just swept 30 years of gaming tradition into the garbage. That's what keeps bringing me back here and why I won't touch a single book until sanity returns. That's not my D&D. I'm out until someone picks up the torch.


The original poster makes an excellent point, and I definitely agree.

Let's face it: I like 3.5 - some other people like 4th edition. Does that affect my games? Not at all. Conclusion: they're happy, I'm happy, and we can all get along.

The thing is, my gaming group is relatively new to the game, and some of them don't even own any books yet (5 players, 3 PHBs including mine), they have a decent grasp of the game, and convincing them to switch to a new edition would mean I have to convince them their brand new books are now worthless and they have to relearn everything - oh and that their level 11 characters need to start over and all their in-game accomplishments are now null and void, and that their current setting (Greyhawk, running Savage Tide) for the moment no longer exists. And all this to play a game I am personally not enthusiastic about.

We just started The Lightless Depths and they've been playing for well over a year. It'll take them at least 1-2 years before we finish Savage Tide, and after that they'll have a pretty solid grasp of the game, so why abandon all that expertise for a new system?

Surely you understand my point. But that's the whole thing about this discussion, everybody has their own reasons for switching to 4e or staying with 3.5 - but that you don't share these reasons doesn't make them any less valid.

To all pro-4e guys: I sincerely hope you enjoy the new edition.
To all anti-4e guys: May your games remain as good as they are today.


BPorter wrote:
There’s a lot of ...

Very true and good to read. I'm happy to see, that other gamers have the same opinion - especially since some of the 4.0 boards are censored recently ...

The Exchange

First let me start by saying - great post. I understand your reasoning though you and I have a different take on a few of these points. This really helps me to understand where you are coming from.

BPorter wrote:

RPG’s ARE A PASSION FOR ME, NOT JUST A HOBBY

RPGs may be a hobby, but it’s one that, as corny as it sounds, has had a defining impact on my life.

Absolutely. I think this is the main reason that many people have reacted strongly to the new edition.

BPorter wrote:

THE D20 ENGINE, D20 LICENSE, AND THE OGL REVOLUTIONIZED THE RPG INDUSTRY.

I too, undertook the Grail quest of many DMs – the search for a better RPG. For lack of a better term, my players and I outgrew 2E AD&D – they wanted something closer to the fantasy novels and short stories we all read.

This may also explain a big part of the difference between you and I and perhaps many on both sides of the 4E divide (though I still consider myself to be sitting on the fence in many respects). Before 3E came along I was having a tough time finding enough players to keep a stable group. Our Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay group ran for five years until a few of our group moved or found themselves with little time to game. I disliked 2E and had not played D&D since 1982. With the advent of 3E lots of people I knew started playing RPGs again. We were able to reform our group and kept it up until I dropped out last year. After 7 years D&D was grating on me again. I never liked any of the d20/OGL game variants. I have favored systems for all kinds of different genres and did not need d20 to fill any gaps. Over the past 7 years our group played Shadowrun, Traveller, Call of Cthulhu, 7th Sea, RuneQuest, and now we are heading back to WFRP - all of this in addition to D&D. But a few of us dropped D&D. If we don't like 4E then D&D is likely to drop from our play list for a while.

BPorter wrote:

I DON'T LIKE THE WOTC DESIGN TRENDS OF THE PAST FEW YEARS.

... I see “refreshed” sales & new revenue streams being the primary motivation. I see more change for change’s sake than true revolutions in game design.

I can sympathize with this but I don't hold the same opinion. I love some of the changes. I love the cinematic feel of the rules. I love the adjustments to the planes. I don't play FR so those changes just don't mean anything to me though I can understand why fans would not like them. I love the feywild and the shadowfel. I love tieflings and dragonborn. I won't miss gnomes or half-orcs. All-in-all 4E sounds like the kind of game I would like to play. Having said that I would also add that I have some big reservations about some of the mechanics - my final decision will come once I play the game with all the rules and the three core books in hand.

BPorter wrote:

I'VE GOT TOO MUCH INVESTED TO SWITCH, BUT I STILL WANT TO BUY NEW STUFF.

I’m married with wife and kids. Although this hobby is my passion, it’s still getting disposable (and therefore precious) income from me.

Yep, I can definitely agree that this is a big one. I came to the conclusion a long time ago that every few years my investment in any given game would come back to bite me when a "new edition" came along. But this switch is going to be more costly than any so far. If it were not for the fact that I am tired of 3.5 and am unlikely to play it again I would be right there with you.

BPorter wrote:
I WANT PAIZO (& OTHERS) SUCCESS TO BE INDEPENDENT OF WOTC/HASBRO.

I think this is a noble sentiment. As long as the owners of D&D allow 3rd parties to publish supporting material then there will always be companies that depend on them for success. Some, like Mongoose, are diversifying their product line-up and that may help but for now WotC is to the RPG industry what Microsoft is to personal computing. Paizo has the potential to be the Apple of the RPG world but that will take more time than the few months before 4E.


I think the OP has some valid points that are worth going over but this thread sadly got sidetracked immediately. We're all passionate about this game although I have to confess to being up last night planning out a way to end my campaign over the next few weeks so that I don't have to deal with the split that's forming in my own gaming group. I did the mental comparison between spending Saturday afternoon statting up a 7th level half-fiend minotaur fighter and spending Saturday afternoon having drinks in a downtown cafe with a Brazilian programmer chick who likes cars, and it's getting tougher to justify preparing for my weekly game.

I also sat and thought a lot about the products that I liked the best, and I was able to conclude that it was the Paizo products that were my favorite (I knew that already, so this wasn't news) followed by the early 3rd and 3.5 edition material. The later stuff, Bo9S and such, was a fun read but I never found the urge to play it. I plan to continue buying Paizo products, but I doubt I'll use them anytime soon.


crosswiredmind wrote:
BPorter wrote:


I'VE GOT TOO MUCH INVESTED TO SWITCH, BUT I STILL WANT TO BUY NEW STUFF.
I’m married with wife and kids. Although this hobby is my passion, it’s still getting disposable (and therefore precious) income from me.

Yep, I can definitely agree that this is a big one. I came to the conclusion a long time ago that every few years my investment in any given game would come back to bite me when a "new edition" came along. But this switch is going to be more costly than any so far.

Hmm... you have a point there. If 4e is not compatible to the older stuff (stat-wise, and IMO this influences the fluff), then all the old books will be obsolete. While some books becoming obsolete is normal for an edition change, still a lot of stuff is usable and can be fitted from, say, basic D&D to 3.x without too much hassle. Take into account that a lot of the 3.x books were quite rules-heavy, those who have invested heavily into those books will have burned a lot of money.

Stefan


lojakz wrote:
So if it's WotC intent to market to them, they are failing. Besides everyone knows it's people who play World of Collectible Card Games that's really the target audience.

Y'know, if that really is the case, why didn't they just scrap the old settings entirely and use some M:TG settings? Some of them are pretty cool and would probably suit the new mechanics better than a gutted Forgotten Realms (much love to Bruce Cordell who's involved in that, but seriously).

No, really. I'd shank a man for a decent conversion of the Ravnica setting to d20. I'd rather have a good treatment of Greyhawk and Eberron (MUCH rather), but if they're going to move in that direction...

AZRogue wrote:
I have to agree with the board's decision to not allow insults or attacks against other posters, companies in the industry, and other messageboards. Such things don't help any discussion. You might have four paragraphs of great material and you add one of the above and that sentence will be what people remember, not the other great things you said.

Is it okay to speak out against another company's marketing tactics? Because I feel that the infighting *really* stems from WotC's abysmal failure to target a large percentage of their existing customer base. Their stated policy was to target new markets first before integrating the old buyers (which is normally financial suicide for a company with a sequential product series). And someone in the marketing department seems to think that the exposure to the system from all the noise outweighs the insane damage being caused to brand loyalty.

I don't feel that it's inflammatory to say such a thing. And I have nothing but respect for the designers involved, even though I've not been happy with a lot of what I've heard.


My switch to 4th edition won't happen for quite a few years, if ever. That won't stop me from buying 4th edition books, as I want to know the system and render an opinion based on facts rather than speculation. I don't like what I see so far, but I will support my favorite hobby by buying 4th edition books (not all of them, but I also don't own every 3.5 book, not even 1/3 of them, actually).

I'll also continue to support Paizo by subscribing to Pathfinder and Planet Stories, no matter what Paizo does, since I can find creative inspiration in anything. I own about a half dozen GURPS supplements and I never even considered playing THAT game, but because they're well written and researched, they're good buys, just like anything Paizo puts out.

I haven't participated much in the 4th edition discussions because I don't want to start or participate in a flame war. I think Wizards has done a very poor job of marketing 4th edition and what rules and information they've dribbled out has been piecemeal and poorly thought out. I have an opinion on it, but I will buy the core books at the very least. The system deserves a full fair shake.

I care about 4th edition. I care about its success and I hope it brings a bunch of new players into D&D. I will support 4th edition. I will support Paizo. I'll also continue to buy 3rd party publisher stuff for games I like that I may not ever get to play. I bought the entire Thieves World d20 anthology from Green Ronin because I love those novels. Will my gaming group ever play Thieves World? Maybe not now, but who knows what'll happen in 20 years? At least I have it. Same thing with the d20 Game of Thrones book. I bought it because I like the books and it's a beautifully illustrated and high quality gaming supplement. Sometimes I buy stuff because it appeals to me due to nice production values. So yes, RPGs are a passion to me and I have way more stuff than I will ever be able to use. It's possible that 4th edition will fall into that camp, but the final whistle hasn't yet blown. So far though, the score of this football game is 3.5 27 -- 4th edition 7 and we're halfway through the 3rd quarter.


Stebehil wrote:

Take into account that a lot of the 3.x books were quite rules-heavy, those who have invested heavily into those books will have burned a lot of money.

Stefan

Deep down inside I hope that my grandchildren will discover my old gaming books in the attic 50 years from now and rediscover the incredible wonder of tabletop role-playing games by delving into grandpa's weird old 20th century hobby. The ultimate legacy that makes me hope my money isn't wasted. If they end up sold to some collector at an estate sale to help pay for my funeral, they will also have served a purpose.

Stefan


I think the folks that say "4e is aimed at a younger crowd" simply have it wrong, WAY WRONG. They may want to include the younger crowd (and there is nothing wrong with that - everyone wants customers with a longer shelf life - and I think their DI is more aimed at a younger crowd), but I don't think that is the sole, or even primary, goal.

My group and I didn't stop playing 3x because it was too hard. We stopped playing because it was too detailed.

My impression is that 4e is targeting a crowd that simply doesn't want to spend as much time mired in the details - details on the GM's side setting up games and encounters and details on the PCs side that interfere with action and the "fun". (And if you're one that likes those details, thats totally cool, just not my cup on tea, and please subsitute the words "dealing with" for "mired in".) They're targeting folks more like me, who'd rather spend 1 hour of prep (or less!) for 4 hours of play, rather than the 4 hours of prep for each hour of play - and they're hoping the detailed folks will find enough there to hitch aboard as well.

So, I think Wizards is looking at the Savage Worlds and the C&Cs and the FUDGEs and other games known for their speed of play and asking themselves, "What can we take from those faster-paced games to make our game better and faster?".

Now, I don't actually think they're going to accomplish that goal; the requirement to sell more books naturally interferes with the requirement of simplicity. And even if they did manage that, I know with our group its highly, highly doubtful we'll use 4e (damage done - I don't trust Wizards the Company for a second, and will only buy products from them that have multiple uses, like minis or tiles). But I don't mistake my own personal revulsion for the company for their intent with the product.

Dark Archive

Well apparently the Paizo mods have joined the mods of WotC and ENWorld, and are now deciding whose opinion is valid and whose isn't. They've been on post deleted and thread locking spree lately. I want ot express my consternation and displeasure at this senseless censorship.


I agree with pretty much everything the OP has to say, but here are my 2 coppers. Why am I mad? Because this game has been a huge part of my life for a very long time. I started playing RPGs (Top Secret SI) when I was 11 yrs old. it was an escape from my abusive father. My parents divorced when I was 13 and my Mom moved us across the country to get away from him. I started playing D&D with some of the few friends I made at this new school, and have been hooked ever since. I moved back to live with my father and his new wife when my mother maried another abusive guy. (I figured the Devil you know was better than the devil you don't) I started a new school in a smaller town than I was use to and ended up with a couple of teachers who were very supportive of D&D and helped a group of us form a gamer club at school. Again, this beacme my escape from my home life which was controling and oppressive. I threw myself into DMing, immersing myself in a world that I have created. It was the only thing that kept me relatively sane during this part of my life.

I started playing with a DM who played basic, and then started DMing 2E. An I will say that I Outgrew 2E pretty quick. But instead of scrapping the system, I started making changes. By the time 3E came out, they almost caught up to where we had taken 2E with house rules. The game was streamlined, monsters had levels and were playable, everyone could multiclass and most racial restrictions were gone. (The one thing that 3.5 is still lagging behind on is that we were playing epic level effectivly and still are.)

I've played with one friend since my original gaming group in high school. He ended up marrying my sister (WHo I tought to play) and and she brought the woman who I ended up marrying into our gaming group (She had played as a kid, but hadn't found anyone to play with for years).

Why have I told you all of this? Well, It has to do with showing how D&D has infused my life. it wasn't just a game, it was a survival mechanisim. It is the structure base on how my close friends are chosen, It was how I met my wife. It is how I keep my sanity.

I have to say that I was wrong about 3.5. I was angry when 3.0 wasn't compatiable with 2E. But 3.5 and more specifically the OGL has been the best ting that has ever happened to D&D as a whole. (Even though I still play 2E with my books held together by tape, I have incorperated alot of 3.5 stuff into our world) But I feel that for the most part the best products from 3.5 have come from other publishers and not WotC. Especially in the form of Modules. Pathfinder has been amazing, and I will continue to support Paizo as long as their quality remains at this level.

Since the anouncment fo 4E I have felt insulted by their poor marketing campaign That has spent coutless articles telling me how bad all other versions of D&D sucked. Funny, I didn't see it at the time. They've told me that the game has gotten too complicated. I said that when 3.0 was released. It didn't take a rocket scientist to see where it was going. I've been told that now every character has a 'job' and now will get the chance to shine. I scratched my head at that. Didn't they already have a job? Wasn't it common to let the thief check for traps and the fighters fight? Mages cast spells and clerics heal? The system as I see it now the classes have become murky. everyone has a healing ability? Characters linger at deaths door forever? With out a major fear of death, where is the excitement? It's like playing a video game with cheat codes. It can be fun for a while, but where is the challenge? I've been told that stat blocks for monsters will be simpler. Simple yes, better? I don't think so. If every time you fight a monster, it fights with the exact same tactic, wouldn't you use the same tactics that you beat it with the last time? That gets boring fast.

What bothers me the most about what I've heard of 4E, is mainly what I haven't heard: Roleplaying. I know in the age of feats and prestige class talking about a little thing like character development seems kind of oldschool, but it is a Roleplaying Game. It's not Battletech. and I have to say, the new syster of 'leveling the playing field' by making all characters closer to being the same sounds just plain sad. My favorite characters were ones that were woefully underpowered, with crap stats, and odd quirks. Any character with great stats can be a hero, but you give me a kobold monk with a cooking pot for a helmet and a broken tree limb that he insists is a cudgle and I'm a happy guy.

To end this I just want to say that I'm mad about the changes, and I feel I have a right to be mad. No one is going to change that. I have a right to be mad because I care so deeply about this game, because it is more than a game. It is a living entity. It lives inside me, and has been passed to every person I've taught to play it. It isn't owned by WotC any more than any other idea is owned, once you share it. It has taken on a life of it's own, and even if 4E crashs and burns, my game will still be running (Probably until I'm siting in the nursing home in a wheelchair telling old people to roll for inititive.


Cory Stafford 29 wrote:
Well apparently the Paizo mods have joined the mods of WotC and ENWorld, and are now deciding whose opinion is valid and whose isn't. They've been on post deleted and thread locking spree lately. I want ot express my consternation and displeasure at this senseless censorship.

Dude, all they have said is be nice or go home. You don't have to flame someone to get your point across.


Arcadian wrote:
lojakz wrote:
So if it's WotC intent to market to them, they are failing. Besides everyone knows it's people who play World of Collectible Card Games that's really the target audience.

Y'know, if that really is the case, why didn't they just scrap the old settings entirely and use some M:TG settings? Some of them are pretty cool and would probably suit the new mechanics better than a gutted Forgotten Realms (much love to Bruce Cordell who's involved in that, but seriously).

No, really. I'd shank a man for a decent conversion of the Ravnica setting to d20. I'd rather have a good treatment of Greyhawk and Eberron (MUCH rather), but if they're going to move in that direction...

You know, I could actually go for this myself. The last bit of that post was very tongue in cheek, but I often wondered why they didn't do something more with M:tG as a potential setting (I read in a couple different spots they wanted to keep the brands separate). I always thought it would be rather cool to see Dominara as a D&D setting, but alas, I guess it's not to be. I do wholeheartedly agree with the OP. In fact he put very succinctly almost all the reason I don't want to switch. 4th Edition looks like it'll be a very fun game. I'm not going to lie and say I don't see that. But... it's not for me, and I'm very concerned with the route things are taking.

Dark Archive

They didn't just say "Be nice or go home". They started deleted posts and locking threads like they were mods on some of the "other" RPG boards that are infamous for their heavy-handed moderation, particulary with regards to anything anti-4E. I didn't do any of the things they told us not to do, and they still deleted my post.


Farewell2Kings wrote:
Deep down inside I hope that my grandchildren will discover my old gaming books in the attic 50 years from now and rediscover the incredible wonder of tabletop role-playing games by delving into grandpa's weird old 20th century hobby. The ultimate legacy that makes me hope my money isn't wasted. If they end up sold to some collector at an estate sale to help pay for my funeral, they will also have served a purpose.

Couldn't you just see the futuristic Antiques Roadshow now?

Appraiser: Why don't you tell us what you have here.

Grandchild: Well, Grandpaw was kinda odd, and he liked playing these detailed games they had in the early 21st Century that were popular before the big virtual reality revolution. We have some books from the Dungeon's and Dragons type of game.

A: I am really excited about these, since many collectors, especially the rabid collectors of the Lunaopolis crowd, really love these books. They tell a story, and your grandfather would have used them to guide friends through an imagined adventure. What would you think they are worth?

G: I'd have no idea, really ..

A: Given a good day at auction, I think for the collection you could reasonably expect 2-5,000 Zulaks for the whole set.

G: Gee really? Wow. And I thought Grandpaw was just an old weirdo.

A: No these books are really excellent pieces of gaming history. Many of the VRs we play today are based in part on the concepts these books pioneered.

G: Wow.


Cory Stafford 29 wrote:
They didn't just say "Be nice or go home". They started deleted posts and locking threads like they were mods on some of the "other" RPG boards that are infamous for their heavy-handed moderation, particulary with regards to anything anti-4E. I didn't do any of the things they told us not to do, and they still deleted my post.

I will try to shed some light on this, although I won't attempt to speak for Paizo.

I run my own messageboard site that's way more abusive than you guys are ever going to be (it's a Philadelphia Eagles fan site that caters to the people that get banned from other Eagles messageboards). Usually, like this site, it moderates itself. Sometimes, like this site, things get a little out-of-hand and when you're trying to contain that sort of thing so that your boards don't turn into the internet equivalent of monkeys flinging poo you get a lot less selective in what you delete and lock.

I was up early this morning and saw that Paizo people were posting in the middle of the night and I'm sure they're all at work at their normal time. These people CLEARLY care about their company and these boards. Overall, both are very high quality.

I'm just trying to help you understand what it might look like from their point of view. They're not out to get you, they're not out to censor anyone, they're just trying to restore a bit of civilty to boards that, by their own admission, have gotten too uncivil for them to even want to look at. I'm sure they'll calm things down here and ease up on the reigns a bit.

They're good people who care. Let's keep that front-and-center in our minds.

Scarab Sages

To the OP: I wholeheartedly agree with your post. i would love if Paizo were to remain a d20 OGL publisher. Many have focused on how this would cut them off from the 4ed community, but no one has mentioned that Paizo would become the default publisher of choice for ALL people who choose to pass on the new edition. Right now the OGL market is spread between numerous publishers. Paizo would stand to gain patronage as the 3.5 stalwarts consolidate to the only firm that still caters to their taste. Something to think on.

From what we've seen and heard, 4ed seems to have mechanics intended to take advantage of knowledge gained playing MMOs, and a play feel of an action RPG. The game style of MMOs is much more hack n slash than traditional single player RGPs. So essentially it could be said that 3.5 is like Baldur's Gate - the mechanics (and flavor) support a wide range or ROLE playing styles. 4ed looks like Diablo - a Hack n slash system that focuses on ROLL playing and required little depth or focus on non combat actions.

I think the diablo comparison rings true. Diablo has no non-combat storyline, you fight hordes of monsters with little chance of dying, and are capable of superhuman feats in combat. So for me, 4ed feels too much like Diablo or even Gauntlet (warrior is about to die er... enter into a vast pool or negative HP) for my taste.

Paizo Employee Senior Software Developer

Cory Stafford 29 wrote:
They didn't just say "Be nice or go home". They started deleted posts and locking threads like they were mods on some of the "other" RPG boards that are infamous for their heavy-handed moderation, particulary with regards to anything anti-4E. I didn't do any of the things they told us not to do, and they still deleted my post.

I personally don't care enough about 4th edition to care about pro or con opinions. All I care about is that the conversation remain civil (and preferably on-topic). Yes, I did a bunch of cleanup yesterday, but that's because the conversation has been really toxic. Before accusing us of going all super-censoring on people, try waiting a few days to see how it all shakes out. My guess is that going forward I won't have to do much cleanup at all.


Patrick Curtin wrote:
Farewell2Kings wrote:
Deep down inside I hope that my grandchildren will discover my old gaming books in the attic 50 years from now and rediscover the incredible wonder of tabletop role-playing games by delving into grandpa's weird old 20th century hobby. The ultimate legacy that makes me hope my money isn't wasted. If they end up sold to some collector at an estate sale to help pay for my funeral, they will also have served a purpose.

Couldn't you just see the futuristic Antiques Roadshow now?

Appraiser: Why don't you tell us what you have here.

Grandchild: Well, Grandpaw was kinda odd, and he liked playing these detailed games they had in the early 21st Century that were popular before the big virtual reality revolution. We have some books from the Dungeon's and Dragons type of game.

A: I am really excited about these, since many collectors, especially the rabid collectors of the Lunaopolis crowd, really love these books. They tell a story, and your grandfather would have used them to guide friends through an imagined adventure. What would you think they are worth?

G: I'd have no idea, really ..

A: Given a good day at auction, I think for the collection you could reasonably expect 2-5,000 Zulaks for the whole set.

G: Gee really? Wow. And I thought Grandpaw was just an old weirdo.

A: No these books are really excellent pieces of gaming history. Many of the VRs we play today are based in part on the concepts these books pioneered.

G: Wow.

Thanks for the smile, Patrick...now THAT's a cool vision of the future and a reason to keep buying books for games you might never play, LOL!!


Blackdragon wrote:
Cory Stafford 29 wrote:
Well apparently the Paizo mods have joined the mods of WotC and ENWorld, and are now deciding whose opinion is valid and whose isn't. They've been on post deleted and thread locking spree lately. I want ot express my consternation and displeasure at this senseless censorship.
Dude, all they have said is be nice or go home. You don't have to flame someone to get your point across.

Indeed, and your post before the one I quoted was a very good one. I respect the reasons why you are angry over 4E's release. I understand and could easily imagine being in your situation. As a matter of fact, I kind of was when 3.5 came out and my group boycotted DnD completely. I think that's one of the reasons why this edition goes down well with me: I am not heavily invested in 3E. Once again, well spoken.

Dark Archive

BPorter wrote:

THE D20 ENGINE, D20 LICENSE, AND THE OGL REVOLUTIONIZED THE RPG INDUSTRY.

I too, undertook the Grail quest of many DMs – the search for a better RPG. For lack of a better term, my players and I outgrew 2E AD&D – they wanted something closer to the fantasy novels and short stories we all read. We sought out grittier systems, toolkit systems, etc. and had loads of fun along the way. But that was from a mechanics standpoint. Most of our settings were ones that were developed for D&D, like Greyhawk & Birthright. 3E, and more importantly, the OGL license provided the best of both worlds – the ability to tinker with D&D settings, classes, and monsters without having to develop all the options ourselves. It was only after I saw that the d20 engine could support genres other than D&D (yes, it’s its own genre of high fantasy) through OGL games that I returned to the D&D fold. WotC got lots of money from me BECAUSE of 3rd-party games and books.

This part I totally agree with. Another poster accused all of the 3rd party publishers of being lazy and uncreative and 'leaching off of WotCs IP' and pondered atext why any company would willingly do such a thing anyway.

And thus was my reply;

crosswiredmind wrote:
How exactly does the proliferation of d20 knock offs help the market?
Set wrote:

By getting more people into buying role-playing games and walking past the shelves full of WotC product in the first place. Every time I walk in and get a new Mutants & Masterminds books, I *also* see if Wizards has any new D&D stuff on the shelf.

And did Mutants & Masterminds take one single shiny copper piece away from WotC's super-hero RPG? Apparently not, since I can't find such a beastie anywhere. Oh look, it's the new Unearthed Arcana, now with some rules systems taken directly from Mutants & Masterminds, to tweak your game! (And we didn't have to pay Steve Kenson nuffin! Just put his name in the front of the book!)

The 'd20 knock offs' worked in genres that WotC didn't seem to be covering. WotC handed the Ravenloft license off to Sword & Sorcery, since it was a niche *that they didn't want to explore.* They got paid for the Ravenloft license being used, and, thanks to the OGL, got to use any rule they wanted from the various license-users.

"You guys can sell stuff using our rules, rather than create competing systems like GURPS or Storyteller, that we get nothing out of, and we'll just take whatever the heck we like of your work!"

Brilliance. Cherry-pick the absolute best, re-purpose them, and ignore the rest. Scarred Lands had Sorcerous 'Scion' feats long before mainstream D&D adopted them, as well as 'Locus Feats' that have reappeared in a different form under the name 'Reserve Feats.' They not only took from the licensees, they *improved* these things, and that's the strength of the OGL. Instead of one or two dudes writing a sourcebook, limited to their own ideas, which may or may not resonate with a large chunk of the fanbase, they've got *hundreds* of writers out there, and they can scoff at about 90% of it, and look very seriously at the other 10% and say, 'This. This is COOL! Yoink!'

[Note, WotC designers may or may not have even seen the S&S stuff before coming up with their own versions. Hard to say. Parallel evolution does occur, although since some of the S&S writers went on to work for WotC, it's possible that both types of feats were written by the very same dude!]

Best of all, you've got former writers for D&D, like Sean Reynolds and Monte Cook and Skip Williams, writing their own books, each of which is *adding* to the 'slush pile' of ideas. They may not get their paychecks from WotC any longer, *but they are still working for them,* so long as the OGL-derived work they are writing can be adopted whole cloth by WotC, and, in any event, builds on the WotC core books and system.

crosswiredmind wrote:
Why should any company open up its IP to this kind of manipulation?
Set wrote:

All the reasons listed above.

The OGL seems to have been a raging success at growing the market.

Shrinking the market and shutting out potential customers at this particular juncture might not be the best idea ever.

As I said to CWM, the OGL was brilliant. People like Sean and Monte and Skip, in writing new books for 3rd party sources, are *still working for WotC,* by adding to it's IP. And they *aren't being PAID by WotC.*

It's genius. Of the sort that would make Asmodeus furrow his brows and say, 'That's kinda clever.'

The Exchange

DudeMonkey wrote:


I run my own messageboard site that's way more abusive than you guys are ever going to be (it's a Philadelphia Eagles fan site that caters to the people that get banned from other Eagles messageboards).

* start tangent *

I-G-G-L-E-S IGGLES!!!!

go birds

* end tangent *


What if you had ADHD and still didn't like 4e?

(Because , I only read two posts)


Coridan wrote:


Face it, WotC IS marketing to younger more ADHD crowd not as willing to put as much time into the ins and outs of the system (the WoW crowd).

Hmm - you may be right on who they're marketing to - and I have to say you did not say they're designing the game for just marketing to so this MAY not be as insulting as it appears to those who are neutral or in favor of 4E...

The DESIGNERS seem to be of this sort of mindset - "if it's not all spelled out in advance, it's not worthwhile" seems to be a mantra of design; not sure if this is what they believe the fans want or just what THEY want.

Many of us had to learn the ropes the hard way, by trial and error. The game now seems designed to give the players the benefit of years of experience right out of the box. This may not be a bad idea (though, frankly, I know I wouldn't have been ready for DMing if I'd had everything spelled out in as much detail as they're apparently giving when I first started). This manner of presentation comes across as somewhat insulting (much as all of the DMG2 did to me - it seemed a pretty useless book because 90% of it was stuff I either learned on my own or would never use - and almost all of THAT was stuff a beginning DM wouldn't be READY for, and by the time they ARE, they'd likely be in the same situation I was...), and we tend to react with insults of our own.


underling wrote:
From what we've seen and heard, 4ed seems to have mechanics intended to take advantage of knowledge gained playing MMOs, and a play feel of an action RPG.

Best part about 4e? The mage can just Frost Nova and leave a weight on the keyboard to get a drink in the middle of a raid. Worst part about 4e? If the admin catches you botting, you get banned for a week. Bummer!

I'm sure 4e plays exactly like WoW: getting together with friends, sitting face-to-face at a table, roleplaying, negotiating with NPCs, tactical combat, and choosing from hundreds of character options. You know, just like WoW.

underling wrote:
So essentially it could be said that 3.5 is like Baldur's Gate - the mechanics (and flavor) support a wide range or ROLE playing styles.

It's true, 3.5e supports a wide range of character builds. It's just 90% of them suck.

I have an 11th level Two-Weapon-Fighting Rogue/Fighter/Swashbuckler/Dervish. He's a lot of fun. He is also just about useless in combat. Why is that?

1) He relies entirely on iterative attacks. Which means he has to stand directly next to the bad monsters if he wants to get 5 attacks. Otherwise, he gets 1 crappy attack.

2) He relies on lots of small damage. That's usually 1d6+6. Give a monster DR 5, and you've halved my damage. DR 10 and it's not even worth attacking.

3) Sneak dice and mobility do not mix. If I have to stand someplace to get flanking, I'm a sitting duck. I'm fine if some friendly wizard casts Greater Invisibility on me, but it's kind of a drag begging another character just so I can get marginally effective. And given the increasing numbers of things which are immune to sneak dice at these levels (which also eliminates the Int-to-damage I get from Swashbuckler) even that's iffy.

4) Since I end up standing still in the middle of the fight to get all my attacks, my AC is horrible. So I end up Combat Expertizing to boost my AC. Now I can't hit. This is not an effective trade-off.

Then there's the signature move of my class: the Dervish Dance. Single move, take all your iterative attacks during the move. Unfortunately I can only do it once a day. My signature move, the coolest thing I do by far--the thing which makes my class playable--once per day.

3.5 is full of stuff like this. The flexibility is deceptive. Most classes have a "sweet spot" where they're effective. I've simply outleveled mine.

underling wrote:
So for me, 4ed feels too much like Diablo or even Gauntlet (warrior is about to die er... enter into a vast pool or negative HP) for my taste.

I like how people keep jumping from "we haven't seen how 4e handles out-of-combat adventuring" to "4e only handles combat". It's like people keep seeing videos of a concept car being raced around a track and start complaining because it clearly doesn't have brakes or a radio.


Cory Stafford 29 wrote:
They didn't just say "Be nice or go home". They started deleted posts and locking threads like they were mods on some of the "other" RPG boards that are infamous for their heavy-handed moderation, particulary with regards to anything anti-4E. I didn't do any of the things they told us not to do, and they still deleted my post.

What exactly did you say?

Mothman wrote:
I would hazard a guess (I have no facts to back this up) that the intended target audience for 4e is as many people as they can get

I have no hard facts to back up my opinion, but what I see suggests otherwise. A lot of what they did amounts to firing their old fanbase. I honestly feel like they don't want me as a customer any more.


KaeYoss wrote:


I have no hard facts to back up my opinion, but what I see suggests otherwise. A lot of what they did amounts to firing their old fanbase. I honestly feel like they don't want me as a customer any more.

Is that likely, though? I don't think it very likely that they would decide to get rid of their oldest and most loyal customers on the off chance of snagging a few kids in exchange. I just don't see it happening.

What I think more likely is that they boiled the game down to the core (kick in the door, kill the monster, take his stuff) style AS THEY SEE IT. The fact that not everyone agrees with them doesn't mean they want to lose them as customers, just that you guys disagree on what the core experience of DnD is.

The beauty of DnD (other editions) is that it never mattered all that much and people with different styles could both play the same game. Whether or not that's still true remains to be seen. We certainly haven't been shown anything to make us think it is still true.

Scarab Sages

CNB wrote:
underling wrote:
From what we've seen and heard, 4ed seems to have mechanics intended to take advantage of knowledge gained playing MMOs, and a play feel of an action RPG.

Best part about 4e? The mage can just Frost Nova and leave a weight on the keyboard to get a drink in the middle of a raid. Worst part about 4e? If the admin catches you botting, you get banned for a week. Bummer!

I'm sure 4e plays exactly like WoW: getting together with friends, sitting face-to-face at a table, roleplaying, negotiating with NPCs, tactical combat, and choosing from hundreds of character options. You know, just like WoW.

underling wrote:
So essentially it could be said that 3.5 is like Baldur's Gate - the mechanics (and flavor) support a wide range or ROLE playing styles.

It's true, 3.5e supports a wide range of character builds. It's just 90% of them suck.

I have an 11th level Two-Weapon-Fighting Rogue/Fighter/Swashbuckler/Dervish. He's a lot of fun. He is also just about useless in combat. Why is that?

1) He relies entirely on iterative attacks. Which means he has to stand directly next to the bad monsters if he wants to get 5 attacks. Otherwise, he gets 1 crappy attack.

2) He relies on lots of small damage. That's usually 1d6+6. Give a monster DR 5, and you've halved my damage. DR 10 and it's not even worth attacking.

3) Sneak dice and mobility do not mix. If I have to stand someplace to get flanking, I'm a sitting duck. I'm fine if some friendly wizard casts Greater Invisibility on me, but it's kind of a drag begging another character just so I can get marginally effective. And given the increasing numbers of things which are immune to sneak dice at these levels (which also eliminates the Int-to-damage I get from Swashbuckler) even that's iffy.

4) Since I end up standing still in the middle of the fight to get all my attacks, my AC is horrible. So I end up Combat Expertizing to boost my AC. Now I can't hit. This is not an effective trade-off....

I find the first portion of your post ironic for someone who was sooo offended by the tenor of these boards of late. So its not ok for someone to dislike 4ed, but sarcasm and trolling are fine when you use them, eh? sweet.

Oh yeah, I'm also very fond of when you state that 90% of the character builds in 3ed suck. i could have swore that you criticized people for saying similar things about 4ed just yesterday. hmmm....

Apparently you aren't aware that craft, profession & several other out of combat actions are gone because "they weren't fun & no fun game would use them". Wotc has stated that they want lots more creatures per encounter. So lets try to connect the dots, shall we? We have out of combat skills abstracted to your background, hordes of lemming like mooks for you to chop down, bucket loads of negative HP & a flat die roll to recover in case you actually get hurt, oh and 'cool' video game powers like a Paladin smite attack that heals allies (huh?). SOunds like Daiblo to me.


underling wrote:
I find the first portion of your post ironic for someone who was sooo offended by the tenor of these boards of late. So its not ok for someone to dislike 4ed, but sarcasm and trolling are fine when you use them, eh? sweet.

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said you couldn't dislike 4e, or that sarcasm was bad. And since I directly responded to you, it's not trolling. It was a serious post, even if it used irony to make its point.

underling wrote:
Oh yeah, I'm also very fond of when you state that 90% of the character builds in 3ed suck. i could have swore that you criticized people for saying similar things about 4ed just yesterday. hmmm....

If I said such a thing, you're welcome to cite me. I don't believe I ever did, and I'm certain I didn't in the last couple days.

Should I expect an apology for the false accusation?

underling wrote:
Apparently you aren't aware that craft, profession & several other out of combat actions are gone because "they weren't fun & no fun game would use them". Wotc has stated that they want lots more creatures per encounter. So lets try to connect the dots, shall we? We have out of combat skills abstracted to your background, hordes of lemming like mooks for you to chop down, bucket loads of negative HP & a flat die roll to recover in case you actually get hurt, oh and 'cool' video game powers like a Paladin smite attack that heals allies (huh?). SOunds like Daiblo to me.

Let's take these one by one:

First, we know Craft and Profession aren't skills anymore, just like you can't take Create Magic Arms and Armor anymore. We don't know whether there's something to replace it. Even if there isn't, the general point is that adventurers should be adventuring--if you decide to retire to be a blacksmith, retire. Aragorn didn't forge his own sword. Neither did Beowulf. I know there's a grand tradition of being an incompetent farmboy until 3rd level in D&D; I also don't think that was exactly one of the strengths of the game.

More creatures per encounter means more interesting combats. I'll be glad to have a combat where my party can go up against 20 enemies, without most of them being so weak they're literally inconsequential. If you're standing in a room killing dozens of minions while the little high-score exp tracker spins above your head, your DM is an idiot. No edition of the game will fix that.

Revising the "death and dying" rules was badly needed. Having a flat -10 at every level meant you had a great cushion when things were doing 1d6+4, but no cushion when things did 2d8+15. Any system where you were happier being at -2 HP than 2 HP has some perverse incentives built in.

What they're calling a "save" roll is really a "duration" roll. The attack against your defense is what takes the place of your initial save. In other words, you get attacked, there's a check to see if it affects you (which varies based on class and race and abilities), and then there's a random duration determined for the effect. Just like 3.5.

Finally, sure, it felt a little weird playing a cleric and trying to hit a monster so I could give another player an immediate save. It was also nice to have something useful to do, as a healer, besides watch them die. That's a worthwhile trade-off.

It doesn't sound at all like Diablo to me.


Cory Stafford 29 wrote:
They didn't just say "Be nice or go home". They started deleted posts and locking threads like they were mods on some of the "other" RPG boards that are infamous for their heavy-handed moderation, particulary with regards to anything anti-4E. I didn't do any of the things they told us not to do, and they still deleted my post.

I want to take a moment here to say that while some moderation occurred yesterday, I can't find anywhere in our system where we suppressed or deleted one of Cory's posts. Since he's left for greener pastures, he probably won't see this post, but I think its important to point out that our messageboards have a rather annoying flaw that Gary's been savagely hunting for months where your own posts don't appear to you for random lengths of time.

If we suppressed something you said, I can't see it. (And I can see everything.) As for us being on a quote, "thread-locking spree", Gary locked one thread yesterday. I'm pretty sure a spree is more than one. :-)


I could have written the OP myself. Well said.

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