Keep this thread on topic.What was the topic again?
ugg I want to respond!!!
*bites tongue in half*
Is it me or Paizo just change the 4E message board title?:
Talk about 4th Edition here. Politely. Personal attacks or insults directed at other members of the Paizo community, or other companies in the industry, will not be tolerated.
1st - As has been mentioned, Paizo has specifically invited comment on a) how one views 4e, b) how ones feelings are evolving and c) how one is anticipating proceeding.
While this is most certainly true, Paizo does not in any way condone personal attacks against other messageboard members or against other companies and their messagebaords.
I'm only quoting you, GVD, because your point that I've quoted has been unfortunately stretched to the extreme. Somehow our asking our community and our customers how they feel about 4E and whether or not they're going to convert has become a feeding frenzy for behavior our boards didn't used to be known for.
Posters to this thread may disagree with the OP, but at the heart of his complaint is a valid point: this 4E sub-board has devolved and no longer represents the spirit of Paizo.
We've resisted moderating the boards as a whole because, generally, our community is good at self-policing and we want to foster an environment of open communication and discussion. Heck, if you disagree with us, we want to hear it!
I'm not certain we can ignore the vitriol of the 4E board any longer as its not being self-policed and the discussions are no longer open and civil.
These boards do represent Paizo. I'd ask everyone to keep that in mind when they post.
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I enjoyed the OP's original post. I didn't agree with all of it but thought it was well written.
I *really* enjoyed Lisa's response. I wish my CEO was so well spoken.
If you wouldn't feel comfortable looking at someone face to face, in the eye, and saying it to them there, don't post it online. It can only come back to you via Karma if nothing else.
And if someone bases their purchases on statements of posters, or even opinions of the staff, and not on the quality of the products, that seems pretty goofy to me, honestly, and needs a reality check.
-Pete
I am willing to bet our forefathers did not actually mean ‘free speech’ as we may interpret it now. They stumbled upon something wondrous without fully grasping all of its implications.
Our forefathers are probably turning over in their graves over some of our current freedoms. However, I do not think that makes our current freedoms any less ‘right’ or ‘good’. Our country has evolved which I believe is important for survival.
I apologize for straying from the original topic and for my obvious US-centric philosophies. To the original poster, I am sorry you feel that way. I agree to disagree with you.
I've just suppressed personal attacks against the OP and against another company in our industry.
Keep it civil. Yes, we want to hear what you have to say and yes we want you to be civil about it.
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I read the OP thusly, whether the OP is justified in his feelings or unjustified, - "Shame on all of you. I'm taking my ball and going home. MA! See what the bad people made me do!" Color me unimpressed by the reasonable and plaintive tone.
(ETC..)
Glad to see someone's got a good grasp of the situation. The OP was an attempt to garner sympathy and quiet some of our wonderful little community here.
Seriously? :-/Keep this thread on topic.What was the topic again?
}; )
Is it me or Paizo just change the 4E message board title?:
Talk about 4th Edition here. Politely. Personal attacks or insults directed at other members of the Paizo community, or other companies in the industry, will not be tolerated.
It was changed this morning, yes.
Somewhere along the way, people seem to have forgotten the simple rule of "agree to disagree." People will like 4th edition and will play it, just as there are those who still play 1st, 2nd, 2.5 (Skills and Powers), Castles and Crusades, Palladium Fantasy, GURPS and what-have-you. Are we really gaining anything by making personal attacks against people who *might* (and do) have a different opinion than we do? Or, for that matter, making broad sweeping statements based on a snippet of information?
For f+%@'s sake people, no matter what edition you choose to play, play it and have a great time doing it. And be respectful of what other people choose to play, despite what you PERSONALLY think. There is nothing that gives you the right to stomp on other people's ideas and opinions, particularly in the negative "holier-than-thou" attitude that seems to be rampant in some discussions.
I have my irrational moments (Shelly Mazzanoble comes to mind), but I certainly don't resort to personal attacks on her because I don't like her column. (I, in fact, loathe it, but it's a matter of personal taste.) Does she really need to be called names to express my disappointment in her article? No. I'd like to think that I (and I extend that hope to other posters and anybody who expresses their opinion) can voice their dissatisfaction without resorting to personal attacks.
Sadly, I find that my hopes are quite often dashed. I point out people to the chat summary here that Lisa was kind enough to partake in. The questions and answers are still relevant four and a half months later.
Is it me or Paizo just change the 4E message board title?:
Talk about 4th Edition here. Politely. Personal attacks or insults directed at other members of the Paizo community, or other companies in the industry, will not be tolerated.
*Sigh* To the d20 boards I go.
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Is it me or Paizo just change the 4E message board title?:
Talk about 4th Edition here. Politely. Personal attacks or insults directed at other members of the Paizo community, or other companies in the industry, will not be tolerated.
It was changed this morning, yes.
You have every right to set the rules. Good for you.
Your company's corporate representation on the net is important. Using these boards is a priviledge, not a right, and more folks should realize that.
-Pete
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I think it is unreasonable to punish a company because of the nature of the other customers. Heck, if that were the way I did business, I wouldn't do business.
But, regarding the 'negativity', it is unavoidable for one single reason. Paizo hasn't announced whether they are going to stick with 3rd edition, move to 4th edition, or do something else entirely.
Every person on this board has a vested interest in the decision being made (no matter which side they're on). Unfortunately, the 4th edition boards have become the place to discuss this very important issue.
If the Paizo staff think that this issue is sufficiently distinct from the debate about the various positives about 4th edition, they could easily create a forum entitled 'Should Paizo go to 4th edition' and it would be a place for all the people who don't like 4th edition to say why they don't like it, without stepping on the toes of those who are interested in debating the 'merits' of the new system.
Since the Paizo staff have not done so, anyone who hopes to influence their decision in any fashion, comes to this particular section of the boards. Even if only to check up and see what has been happening of late.
In any case, I'm not going to tell the OP how he should behave, or anyone else on these boards. The 'negativity' has been limited. While there has been a certain amount of hard-headedness and a few 'ill-conceived' comments, most people have remained very respectful. The thoughtful posts to trolls ratio is very high compared to just about any forum. And as long as anyone can register, there will always be trolls. Of course, since usually the Paizonians have refused to be baited, the trolls go to places (even heavily moderated ones) that people are more 'reactionary'.
I'm a big 4E supporter and I can honestly say that there have been several times, especially recently, where I have felt uncomfortable and unwanted on these boards. The negativity expressed is incredible and I'm not surprised to hear Lisa say that most of Paizo's staff avoids the 4E forums.
But, to the OP, that's not ALL there is. There are many good posters here with important points and who are willing to discuss things like adults instead of the generic "this makes me ill" "not in my games" "4E sucks and was made for children" responses. The people who have nothing but hate to spew really are rare, they're just, unfortunately, the ones you often remember.
DMcCoy1693, Lich-Loved, Disenchanter, DaveMage, and Aberzombie are notable examples of posters who often have very interesting things to say, even when they're arguing against you. You shouldn't avoid people with different opinions just because it's easier; if you can, you should try to understand why the other person feels the way he does and discuss those differences. I think this forum is at its best when we have different opinions and we're all talking about them in light of our own likes and dislikes.
Sure, everyone here has lashed out from time to time. It happens. But the majority of those here don't make a habit of it. I will admit, though, that the boards HAVE taken a big swing towards the negativity side of the spectrum lately. When Watcher (who, like many, is neutral, I think) suddenly seems like a super pro-4E poster in relation, yeah, the board's tone has shifted a bit. When Paizo actually starts considering moderating the forum, we should take that as a warning to watch how we act and to remember how it can be perceived by those outside looking in.
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I'm a big 4E supporter and I can honestly say that there have been several times, especially recently, where I have felt uncomfortable and unwanted on these boards. The negativity expressed is incredible and I'm not surprised to hear Lisa say that most of Paizo's staff avoids the 4E forums.
I'm not a huge 4e supporter. I suspect I will stay with 3.5, but meh. You and all other 4e and 3e people are wanted! The more people who stick around, the more neat products we get (even if we have to convert them). :D
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Nah they changed it. I noticed that too.Is it me or Paizo just change the 4E message board title?:
Talk about 4th Edition here. Politely. Personal attacks or insults directed at other members of the Paizo community, or other companies in the industry, will not be tolerated.
Damn, you beat me to it. I was going to egg him on, slowly increasing his sense of distrust and anxiety, until -SNAP- he loses it and gives in to ultimate paranoia. In this way, I was hoping to begin the long and weary road towards elevating myself to godhood. Thanks alot!
[spoi.....ah to hell with it.
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That's not too fair - the way I read it he's basically saying that Paizo stuff looks kind of neat, but the fans are being lousy and unhelpful, which means the product is lessened in usefulness since he can't get any help or inspiration for it from the people who know it best - unlike the Atomic Think Tank, f'rex, where the fans try really really hard to make the company's products worthwhile.
Seems to me like perhaps he should check out one of the *dozens* of subcategories related to Paizo products if he's interested in hearing people rave about how great this or that Paizo product is.
'Cause Paizo, like every other company in existence, including WotC, doesn't yet have available any 4E product, and so, by coming to the 4E section of the message boards, he has wandered into an area that does not have any of the information he's looking for.
Ended two sentences in prepositions, I have. Punishment is, talk like Yoda I must.
MattDavidT has my eternal support for using 'frex' in a sentence. I thought I was the only one left.
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DMcCoy1693, Lich-Loved, Disenchanter, DaveMage, and Aberzombie are notable examples of posters who often have very interesting things to say, even when they're arguing against you. You shouldn't avoid people with different opinions just because it's easier; if you can, you should try to understand why the other person feels the way he does and discuss those differences. I think this forum is at its best when we have different opinions and we're all talking about them in light of our own likes and dislikes.
Thanks for the nod, AZRogue. I enjoy talking about 4e and feel that posters such as you and David Marks are some of the best that the pro-4e side have to offer.
This might be a shock, but what I am most after on these 4e boards is to find something about 4e I can really enjoy. Frankly, I am jealous that WotC is producing another version of my favorite game and that the rules are not tailored for the types of games I like to run. I am desperately searching for the good news and trying to sift through what I hear on every rule to see if it can be played as-is, can be houseruled or can be done away with. There is nothing that I would want more than to be completely behind the new edition and for some time (after my initial anger at the loss of the magazines and WotC's inept marketing) I was actually in the 4e camp. But as rules have leaked out, especially after DDX, I find myself back to feeling like the girl that didn't get asked to go to the prom. I guess at this point I am hoping for a PHB miracle that puts all of this into perspective and makes the whole greater (far far greater) than the sum of its parts.
Being able to debate the 4e rules and examine them with those that feel they are very good refines my own thinking on the matter. Admittedly I can be a bit of a bulldog when I see shoddy reasoning because I do not want my effort or the efforts of others trying to post logical points of view to be swamped by the pseudo-intellectual processes in which I believe most of our (the US) society seems to be awash. I am glad there are others out there like you that can have a debate, keep it on topic and keep it logical until it plays itself out and we part amicably in agreement, disagreement or even exhaustion.
Does anyone know what happened to the members of the smurf squad who ruthlessly squished a firefight about railroading on one of the Savage Tide threads? Maybe Paizo needs a community of smurf peace-keepers who descend en masse on out-of-control-threads, thoroughly disrupting the arguements by discussing smurfy things.
Then again, I'm not sure if 'whenever a bad arguement starts on our boards it gets derailed by (mostly) happy wee blue folk' would be how Paizo might want to be represented. ;-) (Is that the knowing wink emoticon thingummy?)
Edit:
Thoughts, Mr. Frost?
1st - As has been mentioned, Paizo has specifically invited comment on a) how one views 4e, b) how ones feelings are evolving and c) how one is anticipating proceeding.While this is most certainly true, Paizo does not in any way condone personal attacks against other messageboard members or against other companies and their messagebaords.
I'm only quoting you, GVD, because your point that I've quoted has been unfortunately stretched to the extreme. Somehow our asking our community and our customers how they feel about 4E and whether or not they're going to convert has become a feeding frenzy for behavior our boards didn't used to be known for.
Posters to this thread may disagree with the OP, but at the heart of his complaint is a valid point: this 4E sub-board has devolved and no longer represents the spirit of Paizo.
We've resisted moderating the boards as a whole because, generally, our community is good at self-policing and we want to foster an environment of open communication and discussion. Heck, if you disagree with us, we want to hear it!
I'm not certain we can ignore the vitriol of the 4E board any longer as its not being self-policed and the discussions are no longer open and civil.
These boards do represent Paizo. I'd ask everyone to keep that in mind when they post.
You know, that can't have been an easy decision. I'm glad Paizo has made it, though. It increases my respect for the company quite a bit. Just a simple line in the sand as you've done will help enormously. No attacks on posters, other messageboards, or other companies. That will quell most of the negativity right there. We can all still debate and argue until our fingers fall off, but those that were turned off by things can know that there's some boundary of a sort. :)
EDIT: To Lich-Loved, no problem, amigo, it's the truth.
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Does anyone know what happened to the members of the smurf squad who ruthlessly squished a firefight about railroading on one of the Savage Tide threads? Maybe Paizo needs a community of smurf peace-keepers who descend en masse on out-of-control-threads, thoroughly disrupting the arguements by discussing smurfy things.
Then again, I'm not sure if 'whenever a bad arguement starts on our boards it gets derailed by (mostly) happy wee blue folk' would be how Paizo might want to be represented. ;-) (Is that the knowing wink emoticon thingummy?)Edit:
Thoughts, Mr. Frost?
Now this is an idea of moderation I could get behind. If a few of us are tangled together in a big ball of "going nowhere but down", having the smurf squad come in and point fingers and laugh is a heck of a lot better than having Paizo brass or board messiahs casting threads and posts into the flames.
Now this is an idea of moderation I could get behind. If a few of us are tangled together in a big ball of "going nowhere but down", having the smurf squad come in and point fingers and laugh is a heck of a lot better than having Paizo brass or board messiahs casting threads and posts into the flames.Does anyone know what happened to the members of the smurf squad who ruthlessly squished a firefight about railroading on one of the Savage Tide threads? Maybe Paizo needs a community of smurf peace-keepers who descend en masse on out-of-control-threads, thoroughly disrupting the arguements by discussing smurfy things.
Then again, I'm not sure if 'whenever a bad arguement starts on our boards it gets derailed by (mostly) happy wee blue folk' would be how Paizo might want to be represented. ;-) (Is that the knowing wink emoticon thingummy?)Edit:
Thoughts, Mr. Frost?
A couple of posters over-ran the Fidel Castro thread recently, when someone seemed to be trying to stir things up....
DMcCoy1693, Lich-Loved, Disenchanter, DaveMage, and Aberzombie are notable examples of posters who often have very interesting things to say, even when they're arguing against you. You shouldn't avoid people with different opinions just because it's easier; if you can, you should try to understand why the other person feels the way he does and discuss those differences. I think this forum is at its best when we have different opinions and we're all talking about them in light of our own likes and dislikes.
Like Lich-Loved, thank you for the nod AZRogue. I always wonder if I am preceived as making good points or just being full of hot air.
But creating new threads about 4E without going off-topic which aren't going to turn into new troll-homes appears to be smurfthing of a problem at present, Lori. B.
Edit:
Searching forums for 4E threads to bump....
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I always wonder if I am preceived as making good points or just being full of hot air.
You should never wonder. Your posts are sound and logical. The points you make are always relevant. You and I do not always agree but we have a great way of disagreeing.
I hope you continue to be a participant here. This place would not be the same without you.
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But, regarding the 'negativity', it is unavoidable for one single reason. Paizo hasn't announced whether they are going to stick with 3rd edition, move to 4th edition, or do something else entirely.
No. Of course it's avoidable.
There should be no relationship between Paizo's announcements and your ability to be civil to each other.
Agree to disagree. Nicely.
Your arguement is just a deflection for being self-accountable.
Sheesh.
-Pete
<mutters smurfy things, after rummaging in the archives...>
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To OP and like posters
I agree with you that the 4E boards are pretty bad so I don't take much to heart and avoid them for the most part. I rarely run into similar angst and problems in any of the other boards. There are the occasional troll bait post but they are usually quickly identified and most posters avoid them.
The one thing you will find on these boards is the feed back from Paizo employees, Lisa's responds to this thread being a good example. I have never been on any other boards where you can expect an answer from an employee with in a day, usually sooner. So my advise would be stay out of the 4E posts until the rules are released and Paizo makes a decision on which edition they are moving to and be patient. These are really the best boards I have been on and Paizo is putting out a lot of great products so stick around.
You should never wonder. Your posts are sound and logical. The points you make are always relevant. You and I do not always agree but we have a great way of disagreeing.
Wow. Thank you Crosswired. Few compliments are as cherished as those from those you sit across the isle from.
I hope you continue to be a participant here. This place would not be the same without you.
I'm sure I will, but I'm going to take a break from a little while and post on the Pathfinder Chronicles or the d20 boards for a while.
The problem with thread-jacking to end threads that have devolved into trolling and bickering is that the thread-jack is just another troll. B cannon-firing smurfs at grumpy threads, you only (as others have mentioned) keep that thread alive. Grumpy threads burn themselves out. Silly, off-topic thread-jacks (even with the best of intentions) just keeps them alive.
So self-moderating boards: yes.
Self-moderating that results in bad threads exceeding their life expectancy: probably not.
Stereofm --
Personal attacks directed at the members of another messageboard are unacceptable. If you'd like to repost your thoughts minus the vitriol and name-calling, please feel free to do so. (Your post is suppressed -- only you can see it.)
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The problem is the more we smurf it, the longer the thread stays active. (I just contirbuted to the problem.) What we really need is to create new active threads so the old dead horses can be buried.
Or you can try one of my favorite tricks: Post on other threads you like to try and knock the offender down a notch or twenty on the list, in hopes that folks will forget it.
Of course, I tried that with this thread early this morning, and you can see where that got us....
I do agree, however, that personal attacks are out of place here. For example, the use of the word "troll" to describe someone's posts has, in my humble opinion, gotten out of hand.
Personal attacks directed at the members of another messageboard are unacceptable.
Its a sad day on the forums when stuff like this and everything else they had to do today is necessary. I mean, we're all adults here people. We should be above needing stuff like this. We shouldn't need the Paizians to be our parents. They're busy enough with their regular jobs, they don't need to add policing us as part of their job description.
Sorry Josh if I am stepping on your toes.
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Stereofm --
Personal attacks directed at the members of another messageboard are unacceptable. If you'd like to repost your thoughts minus the vitriol and name-calling, please feel free to do so. (Your post is suppressed -- only you can see it.)
Yes, I have tried. Let me know if this is more acceptable.
Thanks for the uptalk Lich! For what it's worth, you've provided some pretty even handed debate yourself. Some of your theoreticals in the Marking thread had me really scratching my head at how it would, actually, work.
So thanks for posting too!
Maybe it's just the bosses telling everyone to cool down but I'm getting a real groovy feeling from this thread! Must be all the smurfs!
Cheers! :)
Edit: My avatar looks so ... grumpy. Must be the new page!
The reason I frequent these boards and have grown to like Paizo's online presence is because it is without doubt the most open D&D community I have come across. The OP's encouragement of censorship simply because he finds criticism uncomfortable (on a board which he rarely frequents, even), smacks of intolerance and censorship.
BarelyCoherent will boycott Paizo some of it's patrons said unpleasant things about 4E? Two can play that game, and I guarantee that "if Paizo implements the kind of draconian censorship found on other boards that I will not be hanging around." Such threats are juvenile anyway.
The very basis of a forum is open debate and free speech. Suppressing it for the sake of not offending someone will guarantee a dull, politically-correct environment that few will want to inhabit.
This is a very friendly community, the recent ructions notwithstanding, far friendlier than some the OP has mentioned, and luckily free of the cliques and petty, tyrannical moderators found elsewhere, and I hope it stays that way.
Yes, I have tried. Let me know if this is more acceptable.Stereofm --
Personal attacks directed at the members of another messageboard are unacceptable. If you'd like to repost your thoughts minus the vitriol and name-calling, please feel free to do so. (Your post is suppressed -- only you can see it.)
It is and thank you.
I will try to keep this brief.
First and foremost, all this blather about "freedom of speech" is simply nonsense. The first amendment of the United States constitution specifically deals with the GOVERNMENT'S inability to stifle free speech. Paizo, being a private owner of these boards, is well within their rights to stifle what they consider to be offensive speech.
Government Banning KKK demonstration -> freedom of speech issue.
Paizo deleting KKK advertisement -> NOT a freedom of speech issue.
Now, people may question Paizo's decisions on what to ban and what to allow, and it may affect their bottom line.
Anyways.....
Personally, I find ad hominem attacks on designers, companies and other board members to be highly distasteful, but I've resigned myself to their existence on the internet, and I won't fault Paizo because a few of their readers happen to be neanderthals incapable of holding a reasonable conversation.
But some posters on this board have truly gone beyond the pale.
There is the post that implies that 4e killed Gary Gygax. The poster oh-so-cleverly added the "some have wondered" tagline in front to give it some sort of false legitimacy, when no one on the rest of the internet that could be googled or Yahooed even mentioned the possibility.
There is the post that dismissed a third party designer's positive review of 4e monster design by trashing the professionalism of that third party design studio.
There is the constant trashing of the 4e designers, rather than the concepts themselves.
There is the comparison of WotC to Pravda, almost certainly from a board member who has no clue what living in a country dominated by a totalitarian government really meant.
Really, some of this stuff jumps past the deep end and slams into the concrete. Opposition websites and contrary points of view are absolutely vital- in some ways, some of you guys are the ones that are truly pushing the 4e designers to make a better game. But some board members only produce truly counterproductive, hate-filled invectives that make it easier for the opposition to completely ignore this board.
Some basic decency and common sense would be appreciated.
By this stage, I just want 4th Edition to come out so all the ballywhoo can be done with.
I don't know if BarelyCoherent is following this thread, but kudos to you for pulling us all up short and holding a mirror to our behaviors regarding 4th Edition.
There's a lot of depth of feeling regarding the rollout of this new edition of D&D, and people are more vocal about these feelings then at any time I can remember in twenty four years of gaming. The web has unbridled a lot of peoples inhibitions and in some cases, unmuzzled a kind of candor that borders on the rude (certainly there are posters who feel they can say what they like in a way that would be inconceivable if the subject of their scorn was facing them).
Personally, I've been pretty hard on WotC's marketing and rule changes, but have not attacked anyone personally- if have cut a bit close to the bone, then I heartily apologize. I think the direction that WotC is taking the hobby is shortsighted and will not reap the dividends they expect. I have no solid opinion on the rules set just yet, but what I've seen so far hasn't been to my liking. I hope no one is wishing for D&D to fail, because that's a real case of cutting off one's nose of to spite one's face.
To this end, I'm suggesting that we step back and have a bit of a moratorium on all 4th Edition Threads save one that the good people at Paizo can easily keep an eye on.
If Paizo loses custom due to the poor articulation or tact of the posters that have the privilege of sharing point of views on Paizo's dime, then that's simply not right. This company has been good enough to let us play in their sandbox-don't punish them because some kids have problems playing nice.
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Personal attacks directed at the members of another messageboard are unacceptable.Its a sad day on the forums when stuff like this and everything else they had to do today is necessary. I mean, we're all adults here people. We should be above needing stuff like this. We shouldn't need the Paizians to be our parents. They're busy enough with their regular jobs, they don't need to add policing us as part of their job description.
Sorry Josh if I am stepping on your toes.
I do agree with you, and I apologize, as certainly my post was rushed.
I have not seen what "the rest of the day" was like as I am in Europe, and I can only read and post when it is evening for me.
What time is it even for you guys now ?
Anyways, I certainly misjudged, as I was trying to be (somewhat) constructive here. I will strive to de better next time.
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I feel a bit sorry for the OP. If only he visited just a few other threads on here. Especially the ones where we are all running the Adventure Paths, I have never stumbled upon a friendlier, helpful and more fellowship-like feel on any message board. Which is exactly why I stay here and continue to feel welcome.
And DMcCoy1693, thanks for changing back to a kobold.
-DM Jeff