I can't say I've ever been a fan of the name Daemon for NE outsiders: it's much too easy to confuse with Demon. It's one of the reasons I was happy that Yugoloth went ahead and stuck in 3E.
However, I am VERY excited by today's Blog, and I am looking forward to seeing what the brilliant minds at Paizo come up with for our NE friends.
(I'm also curious to see what they do to fill in the CN gap left by the Slaads, but that's an issue for another blog.)
That is bloody wonderful art, too!
Creative Director
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I can't say I've ever been a fan of the name Daemon for NE outsiders: it's much too easy to confuse with Demon. It's one of the reasons I was happy that Yugoloth went ahead and stuck in 3E.
However, I am VERY excited by today's Blog, and I am looking forward to seeing what the brilliant minds at Paizo come up with for our NE friends.
(I'm also curious to see what they do to fill in the CN gap left by the Slaads, but that's an issue for another blog.)That is bloody wonderful art, too!
Of course... yugoloth isn't a name we can use; it's owned by Wizards of the Coast and isn't open content.
Daemon, being the original name back in 1st edition for the neutral evil fiends, appeals to me for the nostalgia value, and because it fits in with the classic flavor of devils and demons and daemons using deliberately confusing language to vex the mortals they pick on.
We're at work on the CN gap, in any event. More news on that later.
Of course... yugoloth isn't a name we can use; it's owned by Wizards of the Coast and isn't open content.
Daemon, being the original name back in 1st edition for the neutral evil fiends, appeals to me for the nostalgia value, and because it fits in with the classic flavor of devils and demons and daemons using deliberately confusing language to vex the mortals they pick on.
I know, it's just a shame you can't. I am glad it is an old-school name at the least.
We're at work on the CN gap, in any event. More news on that later.
WhooHoo.
*has a flashback*
I just remembered a posted something way back, before the 4e announcement, in one of the Pathfinder Cosmology threads about wanting to make some CN guys to replace slaads. I never got around to it. It's harder than it looks. Good luck. (If I do get around to it before you reveal anything, I'll make sure to send it in.)
Daemons! Yaaaaay! *does a Kermit the Frog happy dance*
I offer you the name "anarchons" as a gift.
Wild Fae from Out of Time and Space?
Don't know how anarchons would look like. "The very opposite of archons" would suggest itself, but that form of symmetry would be too lawful.
But I'm sure they'll come up with something cooler than giant frogs.
Maybe they're all tauric, amalgamated weirdos.
It could work a lot like ogrekin and similar monsters:
You have a couple of lists of creatures (and the list would not be exclusive) for upper part, and then again for the lower part. Depending on what critter you roll up (or decide to use, of course), you'd get some special abilities (but the general stuff like ability scores and HD would be the same for each kind of anarchon - just for ease of use).
So say the uncommon anarchon (can't call them common really) might have the following options (again, you can come up with more, and are encouraged to do so, but because you can't write down everything, only a selection of creature parts and their abilities is listed)
Upper part
- Angel (or winged humanoid in general) has wings and fly speed, casts spells from the chaos domain 1/day each
- Girallon (or other four-armed critter): 4 claw attacks instead of two
- Unicorn: no hands but hooves, claw attacks become slams with better die, has gore attack
- Naga (or other snake-like critter): no claw attacks but poisonous bite, some minor charm spells
- Medusa: petrifying gaze
- Insect: gets immune to mind-affecting and blind-sense
- Badger: burrowing speed
Lower part
- horse: trample
- dragon: extra tail attack, wings with fly speed
- spider: 8 legs, climb speed
- turtle: +4 natural armour, swim speed
- megaraptor: +20 on jump
- ooze: cannot be flanked
- treant: trample
- humanoid
- feline: pounce
And yes, you could have a girallon with humanfeet. Would look weird.
This Daemon preview looks great. I'd be sad to say goodbye to the Yugoloths, and all their rich history from Planescape on, but if you're going to reinvent the wheel, might as well hit it out of the park.
I like the devil/mind, demon/body, daemon/spirit dichotomies.
As for the CN race, again...sad to say goodbye to the Slaadi (1 of my all-time favorite D&D races)...but I trust Paizo to find a fitting replacement.
... Wait a second. Wouldn't that mean that Succubi ARE devils after all?
I'd imagine they are probably focus on the ravaging of flesh. When you think about it, they don't treat their playthings that delicately. So they sate both their carnal appetite and desire for destruction in a rather expressive manner.
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Creative Director
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Hm...
Devils: Corruption
Daemons: Oblivion
Demons: DestructionI like.
... Wait a second. Wouldn't that mean that Succubi ARE devils after all?
The thing is that there are absolutely crossovers between the categories. You can have something like a succubus or a glabrezu that has an element of corruption to it, just as you can have something like a pit fiend or a barbed devil that's got a big dose of destroyer.
That said... you sort of got the breakdown wrong. All three of the fiends are about corrupting the material world.
Devils: Corrupt faith and the mind.
Daemons: Corrupt life.
Demons: Corrupt the physical world and the flesh.
Also: Succubi are more about domination and power than they are about seduction and luring good guys into being bad guys. They're more interested in taking for themselves and building empires of minions rather than teaching their thralls how to be evil on their own. A succubus is more like a rapist than a seducer, in a lot of ways.
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Creative Director
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This Daemon preview looks great. I'd be sad to say goodbye to the Yugoloths, and all their rich history from Planescape on, but if you're going to reinvent the wheel, might as well hit it out of the park.
A fair amount of the "yugoloths" are open for us to play with, thanks to the Tome of Horrors. While we'll be developing new daemons and new flavor for them, one of the goals I'm hoping to hit with them is to keep them viable for Planescape, so that if you're running a Planescape game, you CAN use a Golarion daemon as a yugoloth if you want, with very little or no retconning on your end.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Hm...
Devils: Corruption
Daemons: Oblivion
Demons: DestructionI like.
... Wait a second. Wouldn't that mean that Succubi ARE devils after all?
That said... you sort of got the breakdown wrong. All three of the fiends are about corrupting the material world.
Devils: Corrupt faith and the mind.
Daemons: Corrupt life.
Demons: Corrupt the physical world and the flesh.
Ah, I see. I had meant corruption in the mental/faith sense, but your definitions make more sense. Cool deal.
A fair amount of the "yugoloths" are open for us to play with, thanks to the Tome of Horrors.
...Wait, does that mean you get to keep the demodands as well? ^.^
While we'll be developing new daemons and new flavor for them, one of the goals I'm hoping to hit with them is to keep them viable for Planescape, so that if you're running a Planescape game, you CAN use a Golarion daemon as a yugoloth if you want, with very little or no retconning on your end.
*worships*
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I'm wondering if they are going to match up some Sin/Vice-based evil outsiders against some Virtue-based good outsiders.
An 'angel of charity / generosity' or something that shared it's buffs / self-healing with all allied good creatures in 30 ft. would be kinda neat. It could even be an actual sacrifice made by the creature, which might lose access to it's buffs / fast-healing while 'sharing' it's blessings with allies, making it prone to aiding in combat by buffing the crap out of it's self, and hanging incorporeal in the back sharing it's buffs / healing with the forces of good, while feeling their pain.
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Devils: Corrupt faith and the mind.
Daemons: Corrupt life.
Demons: Corrupt the physical world and the flesh.
Excellent ! happy to see your pet imp continues to provide you with exceptional prose about the nether regions.
This may be a little early to ask but here goes:
In the Golarion cosmology are devils fallen angels, and are demons from primordial Chaos, and whence do daemons hail from ?
Are the daemons in league with the night hags in your cosmology, more than the mere sharing of home planes or do they even share the same home planes?
The reason for the questions tie into my campaign and it would be helpful to get any insight.
While we'll be developing new daemons and new flavor for them, one of the goals I'm hoping to hit with them is to keep them viable for Planescape, so that if you're running a Planescape game, you CAN use a Golarion daemon as a yugoloth if you want, with very little or no retconning on your end.
Thanks ! And its great that your first daemon looks like a disease ridden Vrock which itself used to be a type I demon back in the good old days.
Consider the horns thrown for this \m/
Now since we're talking about creature reimagining, I do have ask about the other alignment races. Will there be a Golarion analogue for the true neutral plane (assuming there is one)? I think that the rilmani are not covered under the OGL, so I'd assume that something new would need to be hatched. Also, while an ultroloth is WotC only, would we possibly something called an ultrodaemon in Golarion?
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Creative Director
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In the Golarion cosmology are devils fallen angels, and are demons from primordial Chaos, and whence do daemons hail from ?
Daemons rise from the interaction between evil mortal souls and the lower planes. When an evil soul goes to the outer planes, it turns into a larva or something along those lines. Devils and Demons do their own things with them, but a fair number escape their notice and, in time, transform into daemons. When something particularly devastating occurs in the Material Plane, such as a natural disaster, and a huge number of evil souls perish at once, that's often a trigger that sees the rise of the most powerful and unique daemons or daemon lords.
Are the daemons in league with the night hags in your cosmology, more than the mere sharing of home planes or do they even share the same home planes?
I'm not sure night hags and daemons share the same home plane at all, actually. We haven't gone down that development road that far yet. I suspect that night hags are separate, and that they might serve as mercenaries or agents of the daemons but that they themselves have a different genesis. Certainly, night hags are good at harvesting evil souls and certainly they sell them to the daemons (and other outsiders).
One thing that I might not have mentioned before. The humanoid-shaped demons are generally all the results of daemons using evil/sinful mortal souls to shape and alter existing demons. Things like balors and succubi and maraliths are relatively new to the Abyss, cosmically speaking.
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Creative Director
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Consider the horns thrown for this \m/
Now since we're talking about creature reimagining, I do have ask about the other alignment races. Will there be a Golarion analogue for the true neutral plane (assuming there is one)? I think that the rilmani are not covered under the OGL, so I'd assume that something new would need to be hatched. Also, while an ultroloth is WotC only, would we possibly something called an ultrodaemon in Golarion?
There will indeed be an outer plane tied to each of the nine alignments. Some, like Heaven and Hell and the Abyss, will be relatively similar to the planes of the same name in the Great Wheel. Others, like Axis or the Boneyard, are pretty different. And we will indeed need to come up with exemplar races for all nine of these planes. We're working on that right now, in fact. The info will likely first see the light of day in the hardcover Campaign Setting.
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When something particularly devastating occurs in the Material Plane, such as a natural disaster, and a huge number of evil souls perish at once, that's often a trigger that sees the rise of the most powerful and unique daemons or daemon lords.
Like the Rain of Colorless Fire or the events wrought by the Bringer of Doom in Greyhawk?
Are the daemons in league with the night hags in your cosmology, more than the mere sharing of home planes or do they even share the same home planes?One thing that I might not have mentioned before. The humanoid-shaped demons are generally all the results of daemons using evil/sinful mortal souls to shape and alter existing demons. Things like balors and succubi and maraliths are relatively new to the Abyss, cosmically speaking.
That has so much fluff your a whisper away from becoming a fluffer !
Excellent ! happy to see your pet imp continues to provide you with exceptional prose about the nether regions.
Uhuh. I think I'd really like to never hear this :P
But you're right about the vrock-shaped dämon looking good. When I first saw it, I thought it was Pazuzu.
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Creative Director
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That has so much fluff your a whisper away from becoming a fluffer !
Keen readers of my posts will have noted, of course, that when I speak of flavor or crunch, I use the word "FLAVOR" instead of "FLUFF."
Part of being an editor is that you have to have a dirtier mind than all of your writers, so you'll be able to catch them when (invariably) they try to sneak something by you into print that is a blatant euphemism for something truly naughty. Which is why I avoid using the word fluff when the word flavor is at least 54% less porno in its connotations.
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Creative Director
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What I would love to see is Pathfinder equivalents of Zuggtamoy? Iuz,Igglwiv? Grazzt etc. Probably the best parts of old school stuff like Temple of Elemental Evil was that it was possible for the PC's actions to have long term campaign altering impact outside of just "saving the world."
You will be seeing a lot about our world's demon lords, particularly by the end of the Second Darkness adventure path.
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That has so much fluff your a whisper away from becoming a fluffer !Keen readers of my posts will have noted, of course, that when I speak of flavor or crunch, I use the word "FLAVOR" instead of "FLUFF."
Which is why I avoid using the word fluff when the word flavor is at least 54% less porno in its connotations.
Paizo now with 54% more flavor.
What I would love to see is Pathfinder equivalents of Zuggtamoy? Iuz,Igglwiv? Grazzt etc.You will be seeing a lot about our world's demon lords, particularly by the end of the Second Darkness adventure path.
Do evil deities conspire with demons or are they universally shunned by even the dark powers ? Do demon lords or more aptly princes have the ability to grant spells or do they need evil powers to broker spells for their non thrall followers ?
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Creative Director
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Do evil deities conspire with demons or are they universally shunned by even the dark powers ? Do demon lords or more aptly princes have the ability to grant spells or do they need evil powers to broker spells for their non thrall followers ?
Evil deities absolutely can conspire with demons. In fact... of our 20 core deities, one of them IS a demon lord; Lamashtu. Another one, Asmodeus, is an archdevil.
Demon lords themselves can grant spells to their followers, as can arch devils or archangels or any other demigod-status creature.
One way to look at it:
DEITY: You can grant spells, are immortal, and can't be killed (hence, you get no stat block).
DEMIGOD: You can grant spells, are immortal, but CAN be killed (you get a stat block).
IMMORTAL: You can't grant spells, are immortal, and can be killed (you get a stat block).
MORTAL: Everyone else.
DEITY: You can grant spells, are immortal, and can't be killed (hence, you get no stat block).
Oh, really?
Oh, really?
DEITY: You can grant spells, are immortal, and can't be killed (hence, you get no stat block).
*cough*demigod*cough*
The pestilence daemon is indeed very cool.
All of my past harping on daemon as a name aside, I strongly suspect that cool stuff will come out of this all. :)
Oh, really?
DEITY: You can grant spells, are immortal, and can't be killed (hence, you get no stat block).
I have two comments here: Can't be killed by Mortals. A god being taken out by another God or a demigod makes sense. Lamashtu would be a lot elss worried about Pazuzu if he couldn't hurt her at all.
In Aroden's case, I would also like to point out the difference between dying and being killed. We don't know what killed Aroden (James might), but that's the kind of wording that has screwed over lots of people with prophecies. No man of woman born, that sort of thing.
*cough*demigod*cough*Oh, really?
DEITY: You can grant spells, are immortal, and can't be killed (hence, you get no stat block).
That hurt my feelings.
That hurt my feelings.*cough*demigod*cough*Oh, really?
DEITY: You can grant spells, are immortal, and can't be killed (hence, you get no stat block).
... I'm sorry Aroden. I didn't mean that. But hey, chin up there big guy! At least you're dead! It could be a lot worse. Just look at that "Spellplague" debacle that's going on. Although, if you do learn one thing from those forgotten realms, it's never give up trying to come back. I mean, take a look at Bane! He was dead, his kid (who had a name no one could pronounce) was trying to run things while he was gone, and now he's back and in the core pantheon! I believe in you 'Roden!
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Creative Director
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I have two comments here: Can't be killed by Mortals. A god being taken out by another God or a demigod makes sense. Lamashtu would be a lot elss worried about Pazuzu if he couldn't hurt her at all.
In Aroden's case, I would also like to point out the difference between dying and being killed. We don't know what killed Aroden (James might), but that's the kind of wording that has screwed over lots of people with prophecies. No man of woman born, that sort of thing.
Correct. Gods can certainly die. Aroden is proof. Lamashtu killed a god as well. They weren't killed by people who have stat blocks, though; they were killed through other means beyond what mortals can do.
The point I'm trying to make is that Paizo's not interested in building stat blocks for gods that can't be killed by PCs and who can kill them with a thought. It's a waste of time.
I have two comments here: Can't be killed by Mortals. A god being taken out by another God or a demigod makes sense. Lamashtu would be a lot elss worried about Pazuzu if he couldn't hurt her at all.
In Aroden's case, I would also like to point out the difference between dying and being killed. We don't know what killed Aroden (James might), but that's the kind of wording that has screwed over lots of people with prophecies. No man of woman born, that sort of thing.
Correct. Gods can certainly die. Aroden is proof. Lamashtu killed a god as well. They weren't killed by people who have stat blocks, though; they were killed through other means beyond what mortals can do.
The point I'm trying to make is that Paizo's not interested in building stat blocks for gods that can't be killed by PCs and who can kill them with a thought. It's a waste of time.
What about CR's? Without them, we won't know when we could reasonably expect to be able to kill them and take their stuff.
Correct. Gods can certainly die. Aroden is proof. Lamashtu killed a god as well. They weren't killed by people who have stat blocks, though; they were killed through other means beyond what mortals can do.
The point I'm trying to make is that Paizo's not interested in building stat blocks for gods that can't be killed by PCs and who can kill them with a thought. It's a waste of time.
But what if I want to play a fight between Mhar and Asmodeus? How will I know what happens? ;)
But what if I want to play a fight between Mhar and Asmodeus? How will I know what happens? ;)
You know what: Drop me a line, I'll tell you.
Or we could have a poll. THE FATE OF THE WORLD RESTS IN YOUR HANDS!
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Creative Director
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But what if I want to play a fight between Mhar and Asmodeus? How will I know what happens? ;)Correct. Gods can certainly die. Aroden is proof. Lamashtu killed a god as well. They weren't killed by people who have stat blocks, though; they were killed through other means beyond what mortals can do.
The point I'm trying to make is that Paizo's not interested in building stat blocks for gods that can't be killed by PCs and who can kill them with a thought. It's a waste of time.
You ask me!
In this case... I actually suspect that Asmodeus would be able to re-imprison Mhar, but that it'd be tough. He'd probably need to call in help, and he'd probably not escape from the fight without a scar or something. Mhar's pretty rough.
(I'm also curious to see what they do to fill in the CN gap left by the Slaads, but that's an issue for another blog.)
And indeed it was on Wednesday. :)
The CN gap is filled by the Proteans (in all their reality bending glory).