Hello again, in case you haven't read my other threads, I have a rather annoying player who plays a ninja. It seems that just when I thought he became a halfway decent player hes pulled another @$$hat trick and is about to ruin everyones fun yet again. You see when the party was trapped under parrot island he thought of some fancy plan that only a college physics professor could understand to get them out without any challenge at all. Since then hes tried to get the party out of every jam without a single die being rolled. furthermore hes tried this every campaign that hes ever played in. Now I am just royally pi$$ed off at him. I have tried running his plans past experts and they can find no flaw in it. He is the only good roleplayer in my group and without him the whole thing would fall apart. So even though he is an @$$ I cant really kick him out. Is there anything I can do?
I am having trouble understanding what this player has done. Perhaps you could explain what his plans consist of. I tend to reward PCs that can think of creative ways of fixing problems, so I am interested in what he is doing that makes it a bad thing.
He is a little too creative. He thinks of plans that no one else understands and whines like crazy when there is even one die roll involved.
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I'm curious what his plan was too.
Regardless- just because the player knows something does not mean the character knows it. For example- simple chemical reactions that are commonly known to contemporary people are wholly out of place when a character in a medieval fantasy setting acts like he knows them. Unless the character is an alchemist who specially researched such things they aren't going to whip up nerve gas bombs by binding flasks of ammonia and bleach together as thrown weapons. Does his 1st level character have a superhuman intelligence score? Because it sounds like he's playing it that way.
Coming up with a good plan is one thing and should be rewarded, but if the plan is completely beyond the character's ability to come up with IC... I don't know how you deal with that. I'm curious to see what wiser people have to say.
In much the same way that I can't cast a spell or win a joust, even though my character can, my illiterate barbarian can't write a decent essay or use Photoshop worth a damn. ("Krug, those contrast settings are all wrong, you need - hey, put that down!") My point being: your character is not you. If it's not reflected in the stats, it's not an option. I run into this most frequently with really smooth, fast-talking players forgetting that their character has a charisma of 4, but the intelligence side of things can be a problem as well.
If he's breaking your game with out-of-character knowledge and schemes, that's against the basic tenets of roleplaying. If he's doing it while playing an tinker with a bunch of ranks in Knowledge (alchemy) or (engineering)... well, that's the game at it's best, and you'll just have to write off that section and roll with the punches. Playing with good gamers means that sometimes they'll neatly circumvent one of your carefully prepared challenges or win a fight handily, in which case the only thing to do is rejoice with them and move on. Remember, it's not you vs. the players - you're all working together to tell a fantastic story.
Just my two cents.
In much the same way that I can't... win a joust
If you were jousting me, you probably could.
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When any of my players come up with an extraodinary solution that could only be solved by modern science, I'll set a (usually) high DC and have the player make an intelligence check to see if his character could actually think of it.
I have had difficult players in the past and have found replacements. It may take awhile but it's better than having one player ruin the game for everyone. It sounds like he's not grasping the mechanics of the game very well. Pass along some issues of Dragon Mag to him so that he'll learn more about the game.
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Sounds like you have a "problem solver". He gets off trying to get through situations through clever planning. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but yes it can be a little dull if things always work out as expected. Then you're not playing a game you're watching a TV show.
Funny thing is things almost never work as planned. Throw monkey wrenches and sudden twists into things. Nothing more interesting than sudden change, and no plan survives contact with the enemy.
If he gets all bent out of shape that his carefully constructed schemes don't always work out, remind him that there's always curves being thrown at people in life. That's realism for ya. Besides it should be more of a challenge changing things up on the fly.
I'm curious what his plan was too.
Regardless- just because the player knows something does not mean the character knows it. For example- simple chemical reactions that are commonly known to contemporary people are wholly out of place when a character in a medieval fantasy setting acts like he knows them. Unless the character is an alchemist who specially researched such things they aren't going to whip up nerve gas bombs by binding flasks of ammonia and bleach together as thrown weapons. Does his 1st level character have a superhuman intelligence score? Because it sounds like he's playing it that way.
Coming up with a good plan is one thing and should be rewarded, but if the plan is completely beyond the character's ability to come up with IC... I don't know how you deal with that. I'm curious to see what wiser people have to say.
He uses stuff that could be used in a medieval setting but that it would still take a physics professor could understand.
Sounds like you've got a MacGuyver in your group. The solution is to have all opponents concentrate their attacks on him even if it's to their detriment to do so. MacGuyvers are just too dangerous to let live. You never know what they'll be able to do with that bubble gum.
On the other hand, I'd love to hear the plan he came up with. I may hate MacGuyver players, but I'm never above stealing a good idea from them to use agianst my own players. ;-)
Actually he is a big fan of that show :). I would eliminate his character but he would probably just make another MacGuyver.
Sounds like you have a "problem solver". He gets off trying to get through situations through clever planning. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but yes it can be a little dull if things always work out as expected. Then you're not playing a game you're watching a TV show.
Funny thing is things almost never work as planned. Throw monkey wrenches and sudden twists into things. Nothing more interesting than sudden change, and no plan survives contact with the enemy.
If he gets all bent out of shape that his carefully constructed schemes don't always work out, remind him that there's always curves being thrown at people in life. That's realism for ya. Besides it should be more of a challenge changing things up on the fly.
He doesn't just whine, he explains his plan in detail and then asks how there could possibly be a flaw in it. Since I cant understand his plans, I certainly cant explain why they cant work even though I know there has to be something wrong with them.
He doesn't just whine, he explains his plan in detail and then asks how there could possibly be a flaw in it. Since I cant understand his plans, I certainly cant explain why they cant work even though I know there has to be something wrong with them.
One, I agree with Skeld -- at this point, for this discussion to be at all meaningful from here on out, we need at least one, concrete, detailed, specific example of the crap this guy comes up with. Generalities are not going to produce helpful advice.
Two, the flaw in his plan is that it exists only in his character's head, and might meet some resistance from reality.
Which brings me back to point one. I could give you helpful examples of how this guy's plans are not as perfect as he thinks, but I need a specific example to work from.
Also, I don't care how perfect, detailed and well thought out the plan is, the way the game works, if his plan requires any PC to do *anything*, it requires a roll of the dice.
The idea of the plan can be as perfect as he wants. People, even game characters, have flaws and limitations, and a plan can only be as perfect as the beings that implement it.
General point here (I agree with the other posters that a concrete example would be useful):
Magic doesn't work in the real world. Neither does alchemy. Game physics are not the same as real physics.
Interesting...
My group consists mostly of people who are both very intelligent and are themselves GMs. We commonly come up with interesting ways to circumvent challenges.
- Too much treasure to carry... Wasn't there a net or two in that last room? Summon us up a greater floating disc, would you? (Also works great when you don't have enough fly to go around for everyone.)
- The floor is made of invisible iron... How thick? How much fire damage would I have to do to melt through that?
- I stoneshape a tunnel through the ceiling to get back to the entrance while bypassing everything in the dungeon that just reset.
- Invisibility + spider climb + silence on the rouge. That'll bypass anything without tremorsense (or an active detect magic). Picked up more loot under the nose of the boss that way...
So, while these aren't using anything truly complex or out of character, it does make us into kind of magical MacGuyvers. We bypass a lot of challenges, but that is kind of what our group does. Why fight it when we can go around it? Safer that way.
However, if you really need to railroad your group...fudge a die roll, have the ninja step into a trap he didn't see, knock him out with a sleeping poison, and allow it to expire just as the big fight gets started. That's how I would do it.
You can also take him aside and ask him really nicely not to do that anymore, that it's frustrating you as a GM. You put a lot of work into this, and he's negating that, ruining your fun. And we're here to all have fun, the GM included.
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We really need to know what he did in order to give you any advice. In your last thread you basically made it sound like your players didn't want to play in the Savage Tide AP but you decided to power on anywhay. I'm led to think that they are still acting out because of this, but you need to tell us the specific examples in order for us to determine that.
Also, I don't care how perfect, detailed and well thought out the plan is, the way the game works, if his plan requires any PC to do *anything*, it requires a roll of the dice.
Theoretically, you could require the PCs to make a dex roll every time they take a step, DC of 1. Eventually, he will roll a 1 and trip.
No matter what, you can force a die roll. You, as the GM, can also inject something that makes it not work.
"As you are setting up your ingenious invention, there is a massive explosion overhead! A section of the roof caves in, and six guards, one of which is charred and dead, fall into your cell."
I've had players like this myself and I can say I feel your pain but am not sure I have a viable solution.
Currently I have a old school player that has tinges of this. Couple of examples. He makes flashlights out of light spells by casting light on objects, putting them in tubes and putting heavy cloth over the tube. Voila - instant flashlight - that ones relitivly minor so I simply let it fly.
Another example is I have a race of humans with gunpowder weaponry. Powerful stuff but you'll never manage to reload the weapons in combat so not such a problem - except that the player can buy more of them - still unless your planning on dropping a lot of expensive guns that you'll loose if you run away thats not a great solution. So the player ties strings to all the guns and ties the strings to shoulder straps so that the guns never go very far and there is no danger of ever loosing them. One ends up in arguments about whether those strings should get in the way or if they'll trip the character etc. etc. Thats lots of arguing and no real resolution except possibly having the DM say - you can't do that becuase I said so. These are really only minor problems currently - this player is mostly reasonable and if things get to unbalanced game wise he'll give up a tactic 'for play balance' which makes the situation mostly self resolving - also I started this game by establishing my power as the DM. What I say goes, you have a short time to make your case and if I don't like it then thats that. We don't have 40 minute arguments, ever. I'll give you two minutes to make your case, if I don't buy it thats the end of it. If I can't understand it then I automatically don't buy it. You must be able to explain what your doing in small words that are easy to understand - if you can't then your just out of luck.
When I was much younger I had a far worse player - he invariably played an elf and then insisted that he had lived for many hundreds of years and had spent all of that time studying. In 3.5 this would not be such a huge issue becuase there are knowledge skills and such and the player must have the points to use them. In 1st and earlier 2nd edition this sort of thing did not mostly exist - if a player could reasonably claim to know something due to character history then that was more or less that - the character knew it.
I'd claim that no elf would spend 400 years doing hard studying but he'd say that it was his character and if he wanted to role play him as an ambitious workaholic I was out of line saying that all elves must fit with the stereotype. There stereotype might be true but he got to control his character and his character was unique in this regard. They use to build things like bicycles. It drove me nuts.
My only solution to this for you is to embrace rules lawyering. Become the rules lawyer DM - if its in the books he can do it - if its not then its not allowed. If the peasants could normally do it make him pay for everything with skill points. Want to ferment something for alchahol? no you don't just need fruit and a container and a barrel and a basement - you also must have at least one point in Profession (Brewer). No points in profession (Brewer)? Then no fermenting for you!
I'll note that I don't think this solution will actually work - he'll simply argue with you on and on to no real resolution. You already have a social contract in place with this player and its not one very conductive to the game you want to play. Such a contract is probably near impossible to modify at this point. In future, if you ever form another group, make sure to lay down the law. A good DM claims ultimate power then then tries to use that power for the benefit of the game.
Also, I don't care how perfect, detailed and well thought out the plan is, the way the game works, if his plan requires any PC to do *anything*, it requires a roll of the dice.
Thats not... entirely... accurate.
Many skills can be used by taking 10 or taking 20. I am having a bit of frustration in my game with this because my players insist on taking 20 on all search checks, including searching for traps. The party trap disarmer is a Rogue 4/Fighter 1/Swashbuckler 1 and his take 20 on a Search beats a 30 DC without any magic buffs applied. Up until the end of HTBM (so far), all traps are easily found.
That said, your solution has already been stated. 1) It's what the character knows, not the player. 2) You get to set the difficulty of any use of skills, 3) To complete any task, a DC of some sort must to be defeated in some fashion. 4) You are the DM, you make the rules. you can allow or disallow or modify anything you want. If you don't understand what your player is cooking up, and have no hope even if its explained, then disallow it, or modify it as you see fit.
Cheers!
Theoretically, you could require the PCs to make a dex roll every time they take a step, DC of 1. Eventually, he will roll a 1 and trip.No matter what, you can force a die roll. You, as the GM, can also inject something that makes it not work.
"As you are setting up your ingenious invention, there is a massive explosion overhead! A section of the roof caves in, and six guards, one of which is charred and dead, fall into your cell."
Thing is this won't really resolve the problem. The player is playing the game the way he'd like to play it and the DM has a problem with that. The DM can go out of his way to screw the player over but its not really addressing the issue - the DM just comes off as being petty, unrealistic and vindictive.
The best solution is to recognize how creative you want your players to be before hand and then set the tone for that from day one. Most DMs want their players to be moderately creative but creative within the rules and the tools at hand.
Not creative in regards to inventing gunpowder or bicycles. Essentially the DM has to know ahead of time at what point they will have gone to far with their creativity. At that point he must shut the players down. Easier said then done, since they are all going to gang up on him at that moment. Hence he also needs power and lots of it to be in a position with enough authority in the social group to be able to do simply overrule the whole table.
Theoretically, you could require the PCs to make a dex roll every time they take a step, DC of 1. Eventually, he will roll a 1 and trip.
No matter what, you can force a die roll. You, as the GM, can also inject something that makes it not work.
"As you are setting up your ingenious invention, there is a massive explosion overhead! A section of the roof caves in, and six guards, one of which is charred and dead, fall into your cell."
That might be taking it a bit too far.
And I think throwing in sudden freak explosions isn't necessarily called for either, but again, we've run into a place where a specific example from the OP would be ever so helpful. This player seems to think his plans require no rolls. I have grave doubts that it's possible to construct a plan that requires no effort from anyone in the party.
Also, I don't care how perfect, detailed and well thought out the plan is, the way the game works, if his plan requires any PC to do *anything*, it requires a roll of the dice.Thats not... entirely... accurate.
Many skills can be used by taking 10 or taking 20. I am having a bit of frustration in my game with this because my players insist on taking 20 on all search checks, including searching for traps. The party trap disarmer is a Rogue 4/Fighter 1/Swashbuckler 1 and his take 20 on a Search beats a 30 DC without any magic buffs applied. Up until the end of HTBM (so far), all traps are easily found.
That said, your solution has already been stated. 1) It's what the character knows, not the player. 2) You get to set the difficulty of any use of skills, 3) To complete any task, a DC of some sort must to be defeated in some fashion.
Cheers!
Fair enough. I would possibly argue that taking 10 or 20 is a roll of the dice, with a static, predictable result, but that's semantics.
More importantly, if his plans involve taking 10 or 20, or the use of some spell, that's fair use of the rules, and fair play on him.
Same with your trapfinder. Taking 20 on the search checks is fair use of the rules, and fair play on him. But finding a trap is not the same thing as disarming or bypassing a trap, and taking 20 on his disable device automatically triggers the trap, so not so useful.
But again, a concrete example is desperately needed. If this guy's plans involve nothing more than taking 10s and 20s, or the use of an automatically successful spell, then fair play on him. I have my doubts, though.
Also, I don't care how perfect, detailed and well thought out the plan is, the way the game works, if his plan requires any PC to do *anything*, it requires a roll of the dice.Thats not... entirely... accurate.
Many skills can be used by taking 10 or taking 20. I am having a bit of frustration in my game with this because my players insist on taking 20 on all search checks, including searching for traps. The party trap disarmer is a Rogue 4/Fighter 1/Swashbuckler 1 and his take 20 on a Search beats a 30 DC without any magic buffs applied. Up until the end of HTBM (so far), all traps are easily found.
Well the players are right in how the rules work here. One catch is that you should charge them time. Taking 20 on a 5' square should take some time. I use two minutes which is being pretty generous statistically. Sometimes they have all the time in the world but this meas a fair sized room can take like 40 minutes or an hour. Their buffs and such will make them less happy about doing this - or they won't use many buffs, which solves another potential problem of the PCs buffing up like maniacs and charging through the dungeon none stop.
But again, a concrete example is desperately needed. If this guy's plans involve nothing more than taking 10s and 20s, or the use of an automatically successful spell, then fair play on him. I have my doubts, though.
I get the impression that its an ongoing issue. Even if the OP describes the situation and we manage to pick it apart we've only shown that the OP was not quick enough at seeing the flaws in this specific example. Since we are not all going to stand behind him at the next session and pick apart this players next great idea it won't really resolve anything for the OP. He still has the exact same problem the next time this Macguyver comes up with something out of the blue - just becuase he's pretty sure the players plan is somehow flawed does not help with dealing with the situation at the table.
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Since I cant understand his plans, I certainly cant explain why they cant work even though I know there has to be something wrong with them.
This is easy to fix. I call it the "humble DM" approach. Anytime he comes up with one of his overly complex schemes that you don't understand, simply say the following:
"I'm sorry, but I'm not as smart as you are and I don't understand your plan. And since I can't adjudicate actions I don't understand, you'll have to simplify your plan. Any plan I can't understand is too complicated."
This has the appearance of putting the fault on yourself for not understanding, and also has the advantage of forcing the player to simplify their plans. The downside is it's going to slow down the game, especially if it takes successive iterations to get it pared down.
-Skeld
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Since I cant understand his plans, I certainly cant explain why they cant work even though I know there has to be something wrong with them.
Alternatively, anytime your players come up with a complicated plan, you can have them break it up into a series of single action steps. Since almost all game actions are a set of simple actions, you should be able to adjudicate each step separately.
Instead of looking at a complex plan and trying to come up with a single roll or check that takes care of everything, break it up into smaller pieces that are easier to swallow.
Given the nature of the ruleset, a player should not be able to come up with a complex plan that can be resolved without the character making at least some roll, even if it's only an Intelligence check.
-Skeld
Since I cant understand his plans, I certainly cant explain why they cant work even though I know there has to be something wrong with them.Alternatively, anytime your players come up with a complicated plan, you can have them break it up into a series of single action steps. Since almost all game actions are a set of simple actions, you should be able to adjudicate each step separately.
Instead of looking at a complex plan and trying to come up with a single roll or check that takes care of everything, break it up into smaller pieces that are easier to swallow.
Given the nature of the ruleset, a player should not be able to come up with a complex plan that can be resolved without the character making at least some roll, even if it's only an Intelligence check.
-Skeld
Yeah, this is kind of what I'm getting at. I don't care what the plan is, there has to be a series of steps to put it into action.
I guess part of the reason I want to hear one of these crazy plans is curiosity. I'm having a hard time imagining any possible plan that required no rolls or actions from anybody, and was capable of springing fully formed into successful life. I can't even begin to imagine one, and I'm a pretty creative guy.
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Player and character knowledge are a big difference. What kind of education does a ninja have? I bet it doesn't involved many of the skills and knowledge that is needed to carry out many of his plans. Keeping those things separate is sometimes a challenge, just like avoiding metagaming.
I was playing a kobold artificer when my group took on parrot island. He had ranks in profession (miner), a steel drill (dungeonscape), a climbing kit and a masterwork pick (tool, not a weapon). Given that he had a)training in the relevant profession and b) the proper equipment, my DM ruled that he was able to safely split the stone door that Vanthus closed on us. No roll nescessary because he took his time and knew exactly what to do. Kobolds. Underground. Go fig.
Could I do the same IRL? Probably not, even though I saw a Discovery Channel documentary on how to split rocks with only primative tools and wood (drill hole, drop in wood, wood expands, stone spilts).
I suggest that you speak to the player about his character's knowledge base and intelligence stat. If they are not sufficient in your opinion to come up with complicated plans that involve specialized knowledge, then tell him no. Explain the difference between character and player knowledge and give him the chance to correct his behaviour (either by getting the ranks in the nescessary skills and tools, or by coming up with plans that a medieval peasant warrior could reasonably come up with).
Without any knowledge of what the OP's tormentor is actually doing/planning, this thread reminds me of the time two of my players tried to tell me their characters were going to build a Faraday cage to get past some shocker lizards. Needless to say, I stopped that as soon as possible. Alas, it took a bit of convincing to get them to realize that a rogue and a scout (or whatever two classes they were playing) would have no knowledge of something that was invented on a different material plane at a time most likely in the future.
Without any knowledge of what the OP's tormentor is actually doing/planning, this thread reminds me of the time two of my players tried to tell me their characters were going to build a Faraday cage to get past some shocker lizards. Needless to say, I stopped that as soon as possible. Alas, it took a bit of convincing to get them to realize that a rogue and a scout (or whatever two classes they were playing) would have no knowledge of something that was invented on a different material plane at a time most likely in the future.
And frankly, who is to say that shocker lizard lightning, or any other form of magical lightning, needs to conform to the physics of real world electricity? It's not real electricity. It's magical electricity. The only rules it has to obey are the ones printed in the book, and I don't see any exceptions for Faraday cages in the entry for shocker lizards.
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I think we all just need to sit back and wait to here what this brilliant plan is before we go and give this DM ways to screw over his players. Part of the fun of being a player is overcoming situations in creative ways and its bad form to try and ruin that fun. Savage Tide is probably the most heavily rail-roaded AP of the three and it doesn't take super smart PCs to go off track. 'Here There Be Monsters' is a perfect example of this considering there are probably 5 in-game, in character ways to skip that adventure that most PCs can come up with.
I think we all just need to sit back and wait to here what this brilliant plan is before we go and give this DM ways to screw over his players. Part of the fun of being a player is overcoming situations in creative ways and its bad form to try and ruin that fun. Savage Tide is probably the most heavily rail-roaded AP of the three and it doesn't take super smart PCs to go off track. 'Here There Be Monsters' is a perfect example of this considering there are probably 5 in-game, in character ways to skip that adventure that most PCs can come up with.
Yeah, I had to convince my group that they didn't have the manpower or right situation to repair the ship...
Since I cant understand his plans, I certainly cant explain why they cant work even though I know there has to be something wrong with them.Alternatively, anytime your players come up with a complicated plan, you can have them break it up into a series of single action steps. Since almost all game actions are a set of simple actions, you should be able to adjudicate each step separately.
This is a pretty inspired response. I think you might have really hit on something - make the player explain what his character is doing round by round. If the plan really is screwy it should fall apart somewhere in here and if its basically viable at least you'll understand what the deal is.
Combining this by insisting that the players use their skill points for most actions might keep this moderately under control - though there are still lots of annoying blank space for a character to get up to mischief.
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"You have a ship for sail? Really, in the harber you say.. You mean that one sailing away?"
One of my 3rd lvl groups kiled a hag or 2 in a keep. They decided to sell the keep... WAY too much money for a 3rd lvl party to have... So I developed a real estate office to bog down there attempts to sell it for a while. Red tape FTW.
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"You have a ship for sail? Really, in the harber you say.. You mean that one sailing away?"
One of my 3rd lvl groups kiled a hag or 2 in a keep. They decided to sell the keep... WAY too much money for a 3rd lvl party to have... So I developed a real estate office to bog down there attempts to sell it for a while. Red tape FTW.
There are also usually prior claimants on the land in question, plus who the heck has that kind of money? And if they do, why are the buying it from the PCs instead of hiring some mercs for a fraction of the price to 'liberate' it for the person?
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I had a similar issue with my player of a dwarven wizard in Red Hand of Doom. He wanted to build seige weaponry to defend the city from the horde.
'So, how many ranks in Knowledge (engineering) and Profession (Seige Engineer) DO you have?'
'None, but my character's a dwarf, they all know about seige weapons! And there's a library, they must have books on it.'
It was holding up the game the way he kept arguing the point, and giving me a headache. So I was going to let him have them built, and give them maybe a 5% chance of actually working properly. Then the one that they managed to get right (if any) would have been flamed in passing by an enemy dragon.
You can come up with plans all day long, but you know what they say about the best laid plans of mice and men...
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when the party was trapped under parrot island he thought of some fancy plan that only a college physics professor could understand to get them out without any challenge at all...I have tried running his plans past experts and they can find no flaw in it.
I don't know how old you and your group are, or their level of education, nor that of the experts you asked for a second opinion.
I also don't know the Int score of his character or the other party members.
However, if you are all well-educated in real life, and still don't understand his plan, then maybe his plan is too complex for his character.
Or it could just be a big steaming pile of bullshit, and he is counting on you backing down rather than waste game time objecting...?
Or it could actually be a perfectly good plan, which even the scenario writers didn't account for.
Without more details, we'll never know.
Hmm, I once looked up the INT scores, as they related to IQ, and I think that an INT of 18 is like having an IQ of 160 or so. Whenever a player comes up with one of those awesome-tastic plans (and from time to time they just do), I'll let them play it out as if it's the ungodly smart wizard's idea.
Usually though, there's drawbacks to those great plans. Throwing caltrops into a hurricane will have them flinging all over the place, making the PCs run as hard as the monsters. (Although, when the smoke clears, and they lay moaning and bleeding in a corner of the room, surrounded by 4 kinds of carnage, grabbing for healing potions... that's a pretty nifty scene as well.)
And stoneshaping your way out of a dungeon? Are they sure there's not a body of water overhead that'll leave them running for their lives? Again?
Player and character knowledge are a big difference. What kind of education does a ninja have? I bet it doesn't involved many of the skills and knowledge that is needed to carry out many of his plans. Keeping those things separate is sometimes a challenge, just like avoiding metagaming.
I was playing a kobold artificer when my group took on parrot island. He had ranks in profession (miner), a steel drill (dungeonscape), a climbing kit and a masterwork pick (tool, not a weapon). Given that he had a)training in the relevant profession and b) the proper equipment, my DM ruled that he was able to safely split the stone door that Vanthus closed on us. No roll nescessary because he took his time and knew exactly what to do. Kobolds. Underground. Go fig.
Could I do the same IRL? Probably not, even though I saw a Discovery Channel documentary on how to split rocks with only primative tools and wood (drill hole, drop in wood, wood expands, stone spilts).
I suggest that you speak to the player about his character's knowledge base and intelligence stat. If they are not sufficient in your opinion to come up with complicated plans that involve specialized knowledge, then tell him no. Explain the difference between character and player knowledge and give him the chance to correct his behaviour (either by getting the ranks in the nescessary skills and tools, or by coming up with plans that a medieval peasant warrior could reasonably come up with).
Actually his intelligence is an 8 but he tries to say that his plans are wisdom based cause he has a 16 wisdom
Actually his intelligence is an 8 but he tries to say that his plans are wisdom based cause he has a 16 wisdom
What!?!?
Oh he is so trying to pull a fast one on you.
Intelligence (Int):
Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. This ability is important for wizards because it affects how many spells they can cast, how hard their spells are to resist, and how powerful their spells can be. It’s also important for any character who wants to have a wide assortment of skills.
You apply your character’s Intelligence modifier to:
The number of languages your character knows at the start of the game.
The number of skill points gained each level. (But your character always gets at least 1 skill point per level.)
Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, Knowledge, Search, and Spellcraft checks. These are the skills that have Intelligence as their key ability.
A wizard gains bonus spells based on her Intelligence score. The minimum Intelligence score needed to cast a wizard spell is 10 + the spell’s level.
An animal has an Intelligence score of 1 or 2. A creature of humanlike intelligence has a score of at least 3.
Wisdom (Wis):
Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings. Wisdom is the most important ability for clerics and druids, and it is also important for paladins and rangers. If you want your character to have acute senses, put a high score in Wisdom. Every creature has a Wisdom score.
You apply your character’s Wisdom modifier to:
Will saving throws (for negating the effect of charm person and other spells).
Heal, Listen, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks. These are the skills that have Wisdom as their key ability.
Clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers get bonus spells based on their Wisdom scores. The minimum Wisdom score needed to cast a cleric, druid, paladin, or ranger spell is 10 + the spell’s level.
Planning (especially large complex plans) are pretty much the definition of reasoning through a problem.
People with high wisdom (and lower intelligence) often make the right choice without necessarily understanding why.
"I don't think we should go out into the street right now. Something about that guy on the corner is giving me a bad feeling."
People with high intelligence (and lower wisdom) often can see and understand the big picture but still make the dumb mistake.
"I know it is a succubus ... but she's so hot. What if we just don't kiss?"
'So, how many ranks in Knowledge (engineering) and Profession (Seige Engineer) DO you have?'
'None, but my character's a dwarf, they all know about seige weapons! And there's a library, they must have books on it.'
This is flat out idiotic. That's like saying "I'm an American. We're defended by F16s. I know all about F16, just because I'm an American. And I've read lots of books on F16s. Therefore I should be able to build one and fly it."
It's the example taken to an extreme, but it's still the same concept. His dwarf can "know about" siege engines all he wants, but without spending any skill points in KN: Engineering and PRO: Siege Engineer, the dwarf cannot do it any more than the player can.
If the player pushes the point, ask him to personally build and fire a siege engine for you.
Of course, if he builds and operates siege equipment for a living, ask him to build and operate something else.
Alternatively, anytime your players come up with a complicated plan, you can have them break it up into a series of single action steps. Since almost all game actions are a set of simple actions, you should be able to adjudicate each step separately.
Instead of looking at a complex plan and trying to come up with a single roll or check that takes care of everything, break it up into smaller pieces that are easier to swallow.
Given the nature of the ruleset, a player should not be able to come up with a complex plan that can be resolved without the character making at least some roll, even if it's only an Intelligence check.
This, by far, is the best option, and thus bears repeating.
Have him break into into separate steps, and then he will roll checks based on his character's most appropriate skill or ability score for that particular step.
Actually his intelligence is an 8 but he tries to say that his plans are wisdom based cause he has a 16 wisdom
He is incorrect. Tell him that, and then say "no".
From where I'm sitting, nobody is really talking much about the root problem.
This player doesn't seem to want to play this D&D game.
He may want to play another RPG, or he might want to play D&D but with a different scenario/campaign, or he may want to play Portal or something. But he seems to be doing whatever he can, consciously or not, to throw a wrench into Soccer Zone's game.
This is a very difficult problem for Soccer Zone, to be honest. It's easy for me to sit here and say "you shouldn't game with him", but the guy isn't my friend, isn't someone I deal with on an ongoing basis. I'm blessed with a group that I get along with, and that shares my overall goals for gaming. (It's also part of the reason I don't game all that much: I'm very picky about who I game with. Personally, I'd rather not game than have a game that's not lots of fun; there are plenty of other things I could be doing instead.)
I honestly don't know what the real solution is. It might be to sit down with the guy and have a conversation along the lines of "Look what you're doing. Is this intentional? Can you stop?". Soccer Zone will need to figure out (in advance!) what to do if he essentially says "I won't stop; I'll stop MacGuyvering, but I'll just figure out some other way to be disruptive". Maybe he is honestly unaware that he's causing problems, in which case talking to him will smooth the path for future gaming. I don't know that; Soccer Zone, you're the only one (on this board) who might.
Best of luck.
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I agree that the heart of the problem isn't about rules. According to Soccer Zone, this guy gets pissed off if he has to roll a dice to succeed. Why? Because that would create the possibility of failure. This player has a superiority complex going on. He needs his plans to be so brilliant that they automatically work out. If anyone disagrees, it's because they lack his superior brilliance: he certainly won't demean himself by explaining it to lesser beings.
If he's the best roleplayer in your group, I'd get a new group. (True, I live in NYC where players are easy to come by, but there's always online tabletops etc.) If you really want to try to make this work, don't make it about you. (I know I have to keep an eye on my own need to be the superior one in control of everything when I DM, which would make me angry at a guy like this who wants to put himself & his plans on top). Instead, focus on the other players' experience. If every situation is solved by this guy's plan, there's no dice rolling, and no one can understand it, how is that supposed to be fun for the rest of the group?
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Actually his intelligence is an 8 but he tries to say that his plans are wisdom based cause he has a 16 wisdom
The wise man knows to stay out of the rain. The intelligent man knows how to buid and umbrella. Intelliegence and Wisdon can't used interchangably to fit the players' need at the moment.
If what he posits were true (in a game rules sense), then Knowledge skills would be modified by Wisdom instead of or in addition to intelligence.
As has been mentioned, it sounds like you have a player that wants to bend the rules so there can be no failure. Maybe you should/could sit your group down as a whole (without addressing the player personally, but possible citing one of his plans as an example) and remind them that skills and skill checks, along with ability checks, exist in the game for a reason.
"There's many a slip betwixt cup and lip."
-Skeld
On the other hand, I'd love to hear the plan he came up with. I may hate MacGuyver players, but I'm never above stealing a good idea from them to use agianst my own players. ;-)
Yeah, Right! Like the NPC bad guys you create need MacGuyver tactics! :)