Soccer Zone's page

personally I think that this whole in game romance thing is retarded.

personally I think this in game romance ting is retarded.

Player and character knowledge are a big difference. What kind of education does a ninja have? I bet it doesn't involved many of the skills and knowledge that is needed to carry out many of his plans. Keeping those things separate is sometimes a challenge, just like avoiding metagaming.

I was playing a kobold artificer when my group took on parrot island. He had ranks in profession (miner), a steel drill (dungeonscape), a climbing kit and a masterwork pick (tool, not a weapon). Given that he had a)training in the relevant profession and b) the proper equipment, my DM ruled that he was able to safely split the stone door that Vanthus closed on us. No roll nescessary because he took his time and knew exactly what to do. Kobolds. Underground. Go fig.

Could I do the same IRL? Probably not, even though I saw a Discovery Channel documentary on how to split rocks with only primative tools and wood (drill hole, drop in wood, wood expands, stone spilts).

I suggest that you speak to the player about his character's knowledge base and intelligence stat. If they are not sufficient in your opinion to come up with complicated plans that involve specialized knowledge, then tell him no. Explain the difference between character and player knowledge and give him the chance to correct his behaviour (either by getting the ranks in the nescessary skills and tools, or by coming up with plans that a medieval peasant warrior could reasonably come up with).

Actually his intelligence is an 8 but he tries to say that his plans are wisdom based cause he has a 16 wisdom

Sounds like you have a "problem solver". He gets off trying to get through situations through clever planning. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but yes it can be a little dull if things always work out as expected. Then you're not playing a game you're watching a TV show.

Funny thing is things almost never work as planned. Throw monkey wrenches and sudden twists into things. Nothing more interesting than sudden change, and no plan survives contact with the enemy.
If he gets all bent out of shape that his carefully constructed schemes don't always work out, remind him that there's always curves being thrown at people in life. That's realism for ya. Besides it should be more of a challenge changing things up on the fly.

He doesn't just whine, he explains his plan in detail and then asks how there could possibly be a flaw in it. Since I cant understand his plans, I certainly cant explain why they cant work even though I know there has to be something wrong with them.

Sounds like you've got a MacGuyver in your group. The solution is to have all opponents concentrate their attacks on him even if it's to their detriment to do so. MacGuyvers are just too dangerous to let live. You never know what they'll be able to do with that bubble gum.

On the other hand, I'd love to hear the plan he came up with. I may hate MacGuyver players, but I'm never above stealing a good idea from them to use agianst my own players. ;-)

Actually he is a big fan of that show :). I would eliminate his character but he would probably just make another MacGuyver.

I'm curious what his plan was too.

Regardless- just because the player knows something does not mean the character knows it. For example- simple chemical reactions that are commonly known to contemporary people are wholly out of place when a character in a medieval fantasy setting acts like he knows them. Unless the character is an alchemist who specially researched such things they aren't going to whip up nerve gas bombs by binding flasks of ammonia and bleach together as thrown weapons. Does his 1st level character have a superhuman intelligence score? Because it sounds like he's playing it that way.

Coming up with a good plan is one thing and should be rewarded, but if the plan is completely beyond the character's ability to come up with IC... I don't know how you deal with that. I'm curious to see what wiser people have to say.

He uses stuff that could be used in a medieval setting but that it would still take a physics professor could understand.

I am having trouble understanding what this player has done. Perhaps you could explain what his plans consist of. I tend to reward PCs that can think of creative ways of fixing problems, so I am interested in what he is doing that makes it a bad thing.

He is a little too creative. He thinks of plans that no one else understands and whines like crazy when there is even one die roll involved.

Hello again, in case you haven't read my other threads, I have a rather annoying player who plays a ninja. It seems that just when I thought he became a halfway decent player hes pulled another @$$hat trick and is about to ruin everyones fun yet again. You see when the party was trapped under parrot island he thought of some fancy plan that only a college physics professor could understand to get them out without any challenge at all. Since then hes tried to get the party out of every jam without a single die being rolled. furthermore hes tried this every campaign that hes ever played in. Now I am just royally pi$$ed off at him. I have tried running his plans past experts and they can find no flaw in it. He is the only good roleplayer in my group and without him the whole thing would fall apart. So even though he is an @$$ I cant really kick him out. Is there anything I can do?

Thanks to all the great advice i have been getting I've finally done it.
Below here I have written all that I did in case it helps anyone else.
1. I did three things here, first I convinced the ninja not to be evil, second I asked them about there characters backgrounds and personalities so their at least manageable and third I made Lavinia evil (Ill write more on that in one of my next threads)
2. the ninja pick pocketed the gold from the other players and gave it back to Lavinia.
3. it turns out he was just new to the game and was bored. I soon found ways to entertain him so he was actually a part of the game and he stopped (for the most part).
4. Ive actually convinced him to join the scarlet brotherhood (he also died at lotus hq but then made his next character almost exactly alike)and he basically fell into place from there.
5. I found out that was actually a good roleplayer and the other players had roped him into playing an evil character. I then convinced him to changed his character into a CN and make his character into a ruthless adventurer/spy for Lavinia(who is also a member of the seekers).
6. The party finally started hating Vanthus (partially because they were close to tpk 5 different times in lotus hq).
Thank you all for helping me fix my groups problems (well there is one potentially problematic thing that the ninja did but ill get to that on another thread).

For those who say this AP is a heroic campaign, the Savage Tide does have a small sidebar that explains the characters can join Rowyn and the Lotus Dragons and "be evil." This, of course, takes a little more preparation on the DMs part.

However, the OP even mentioned that his party isn't likely to join the Lotus Dragons (any details on why not?), which makes the whole thing even more difficult.

The only thing I can think of is to get them to join the Scarlet Brotherhood and have them be the backing to the trip to Farshore.

actually the players cant join the lotus dragons (or any other organizations) because the Ninja (and his player) hate any permanent employer regardless of who they are.

Soccer Zone wrote:

1. Our party consists of a NE druid, a CE ninja and a LE monk.

That seems to be your primary problem. All the others (except #3) seem to flow from that. Nice observation. I am highly considering not allowing evil now.

Soccer Zone wrote:

2. When the player recovered the blue Nixie they demanded more money saying "we could sell this ship on the black market for more gp" and it took some out of game "persuasion" to get the to accept 500 gp each.

It's unlikely that they could even sell it on the black market - it's a little big and noticable...

Whoops I should have been more perceptive.

Soccer Zone wrote:

5. The ninja (and his player) hates anything constant (thus he has refused Lavinia's offer to become her bodyguards and troubleshooters, will probably not join the lotus dragons and hate Lavinia because shes a permanent employer).

It seems like he's playing CE rather well to me....

I will probably make him play CN or at least NE now.

Soccer Zone wrote:

6. When the players first met Vanthus they basically said "just another obstacle in our path" and did not hate him in the least (so I cant motivate them there).

If the players have attachments, etc, then Vanthus could make it personal. IMC, one of the players owns a bar and the Lotus Dragons tried to torch it. That sort of thing.

My players are bad roleplayers. They have no attachments accept themselves.

Soccer Zone wrote:

What can I do to motivate these players (and their characters).

I seriously doubt you actually can motivate the characters to continue the adventure path. If the players hate the NPCs and/or situation, it's a lost cause. The adventures in Savage Tide seem to require an element of selflessness that evil PCs are unlikely to be able to muster. Also, given the way they've treated Lavinia (#3 could reasonably be taken in-game as "the druid is always leering at Lavinia"), do you think she'd want to hire them?

I'm going to venture that your campaign is already off-the-rails. I'd suggest having Lavinia cut ties with them and let them do some no-adventure path stuff, since they want to accumulate wealth and rampage around. Perhaps the players will work out their evil...

I know that but Ill try anyway.

My group has gone through the first session and it seems that the players just aren't interested. My group has several problems.
1. Our party consists of a NE druid, a CE ninja and a LE monk.
2. When the player recovered the blue Nixie they demanded more money saying "we could sell this ship on the black market for more gp" and it took some out of game "persuasion" to get the to accept 500 gp each.
3. The druids player constantly makes bad jokes about having ranks in profession (hooker), how Soller Vark looks like a rapeist, how he rips Lavinia's clothes off with his sword, etc. that make it hard to concentrate on the game.
4. The monks player doesn't play his character like a monk (even an evil one). He is the most greedy of the characters, he goes back on his word and he doesn't act lawful.
5. The ninja (and his player) hates anything constant (thus he has refused Lavinia's offer to become her bodyguards and troubleshooters, will probably not join the lotus dragons and hate Lavinia because shes a permanent employer).
6. When the players first met Vanthus they basically said "just another obstacle in our path" and did not hate him in the least (so I cant motivate them there).
What can I do to motivate these players (and their characters).

Assassin at 1st level ? I suppose we are not talking the PrC here =)

He is an assassin by profession, not by class.

One of the players in my group is playing an assassin who has contacts in a local thieves guild. However the lotus dragons have destroyed all the other thieves guilds. So there guild has been destroyed however I was able to determine (through discreet questioning) that there appropriate reaction would be too join the lotus dragons. Seeing as how they are the assassins friends and how the assassin is evil it seems that the party will join the lotus dragons before the adventure is ready (eg. no lotus hq or the treasure and exp gained from it). What can I do?

Just out of curiosity, has anyone with an evil party still used Lavinia as the patron? You could make her evil and turn the Vanthus thing into power play or sibling rivalry rather than the sexual overtones.

I will probably wind up doing that considering the state of my party. And that I want to make the Lotus dragons/Lavina thing more interesting.

I was thinking that the lotus dragons were way too wimpy. So I thought that it would be cooler if they were led by three leaders. Who are (in order of rank from lowest to highest)the lady of the lotus (Rowyn Kellani)
the lady of the dragon (Heldrath Kellani) and the old man of the dragon (Emil Draktus). The higher connections would mean that they would make far better reoccurring enemies (or allies). Any thoughts, questions, etc.