One of the things that has gotten me so excited about the new edition is the idea that we get a brand new Core World to explore. The key problem with the last edition for me was that Greyhawk kind of got lost. It was nominally the core setting so it didn't get the kind of love Faerun or Eberron did, with a dozen books each, because the presumption was that every Core book was supposed to be a Greyhawk book. On the other hand, rather than explore Greyhawk as it is, there was a big pressure to marginalize the things that made it distinctive and turn it into more the "generic vanilla D&D". The Races series of books retooled each race, as if for some new setting, rather than use the original Greyhawk cultural stuff. They spliced in a whole bunch of new gods and wierd origin stories, until it was hard to know where Greyhawk ended and the Pseudo-Greyhawk Core Setting began. It was a mess. Lots of books did this, all of them pushing and pulling at the identity of Greyhawk as a setting and giving me the kind of knife-behind-the-eyeballs headache that only a continuity hound like me can get.
So I was looking through the Worlds & Monsters book and on the whole I was very impressed. A whole fresh world, with historical underpinnings for its races, whole nations and cultures, unfolding histories. They even give some names for this place--Creation (which, okay, was lifted straight outta' Exalted *sigh*) and The Middle Realm (which I really kind of like, halfway between the Elemental Vortex and the Astral Sea, and likewise straddling the Shadowfel on one side and the Feywild on the other).
Great. A new setting at last! Now Greyhawk can be Greyhawk without everyone messing with it. Awesome.
Then I catch the bit about "What the Development Team Means When We Say World"
Uh-oh.
See a world isn't a world in any conventional sense. It's not a plane or a realm or a planet. Nothing like that. It's the D&D game in its essence that makes it different from every other setting out there. It's like a template for a game to make it "feel D&D". It's a brand.
So now I'm right back to not knowing what they're talking about.
So when they describe the history of Io creating the dragons, is that how it works now in EVERY setting? The one country where the Tiefings come from, is that supposed to exist across all settings? In none of them? I don't get it! Are they saying that their ideas of empires falling all the time and the world being stuck in a mapless dark age, is something that applies to every D&D setting out there?
I just don't know.
Here's my take. The Middle Realm IS a world. It's a real physical world. It's made of dirt. It's not a template or a brand name. Those kingdoms and histories and whatnot exist THERE. The modules and whatnot written for 4e exist THERE. It's a big freeform dark age place full of excitement and adventure and I WILL NOT ALLOW it to become some big floaty "not-really-a-world" thing because that will kill me-- and after a whole edition of having to put up with mealymouthed crap I will have my way on this dangit!!
So...yeah okay that's my peace.
What they did in 3rd edition with Greyhawk was a big mistake from beginning to end. Initially my response to making it "the default world" was Great! I think what happened early on was that someone totally changed gears. I do recall reading in a Dragon magazine that the president of WOTC (whoever that was at the beginning of 3.0) laid down the law saying that Greyhawk was the default setting. I'm guessing there were some hopes and plans and then it crashed and burned for whatever reasons.
Anyway, in regards to 4th edition, my understanding is that their world conists of nothing more than drop in names, places, and backgrounds in order to be campaign neutral. The only problem is I think they already went past "neutral" in regards to their "pet" classes and races for 4th edition ("pet" meaning new stuff they HAD to throw in and not wait with for later on).
Despite what they say now, I still expect a world to come out eventually. It may be in bits and pieces though rather than an actual book itself. I think the splat books are likely to drop more bits and pieces and add to those already mentioned. I can also picture their yearly PH, DMG, having significantly more information in regards to their "neutral" world. If a official campaign appears, I'm guessing it will be done after realms and ebberron. Personally, I think if either realms or ebberron saled drop, this will be their backup plan. I also think they can't wait to get the go ahead to develop their "pet stuff" some more. They seem to be a lot more into it than the traditional 30 year old D&D material.
The "implied setting" for 4th Edition isnt going to be an actual campaign settings. Its just implied to exist while you read the books, but wont have maps, a timeline, or anything else like that.
You can of course draw elements from it when making your own campaign, or you can simply ignore it.
The "generic campaign setting" for 4e is exactly what Greyhawk was in 3e, within the scope of official material. Discounting Paizo material, I don't think we ever even saw the word "Greyhawk" in a WOTC product for... heck, maybe up to Expidition to Castle Greyhawk.
I think what I like about this new setting most is the lack of maps. There seems to be this strong storyline (and yeah, for a "nonsetting" the Worlds & Monsters book is thick with history and storyline) setting up this dark age environment where nobody really knows much about the world beyond their little corner of it. They even go to pains to name it--though wierdly they don't give it a real name, mostly just academic titles. They have major nations that have risen and fallen, with little paragraph snippets of history. Its like they're trying really hard to paint this lavish world but in just the broadest possible brushstrokes so individual DMs can go in and really make the world their own. Wonderful.
But then in a blink it's like nevermind it's not a setting, do whatever you want.
AAAARGH!
What I wouldn't give for a bit of backbone amongst these guys! This is the second edition of the game where they're gonna' do this to me. It was very much the same in third edition. They do all this overtly Greyhawk stuff, even start weaving some really interesting bits of metaplot, but then it's like at the same time they want to distance themselves as far from Greyhawk as possible and make their Core setting something entirely different. It's like Metropolis and Lois Lane and Lex Luthor, with this Superhero in red underwear and cape but it's totally not Superman! It's something TOTALLY different. Can't happen. Sorry, once you've put the Great Wheel in there and all the Greyhawk gods--you're talking Greyhawk. You might be stomping on it, neglecting it, or mutating it, but what you're dealing with is Greyhawk. To think otherwise is ridiculous. It's obviously Greyhawk.
Anyhow it kills me that I'm constantly having to spindoctor and make sense of things that I'm paying $40 a pop on. I don't see where it would have killed them to make their "World" into, y'know, a world. Anyway if they're not gonna' than I will. Just drives me nuts. It's like nobody's seen a Campaign Setting before--like we'll all freak out and think that their Core Setting is the only one we can play in. I just don't get it.
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The "generic campaign setting" for 4e is exactly what Greyhawk was in 3e, within the scope of official material. Discounting Paizo material, I don't think we ever even saw the word "Greyhawk" in a WOTC product for... heck, maybe up to Expidition to Castle Greyhawk.
Not really true; they did release a 3.0 Gazetteer. But aside from that early bits and the way the various deities are originally of Greyhawk origin... Yeah, it is kind of sad. I missed the world of Greyhawk when I got into D&D, I am afraid, and I lack any real material on it now, although I do thankfully have some links to examine.
This "Campaign Setting that is not really a complete setting" is not new to 4th edition.
3rd edition initially used Greyhawk as the default setting but that changed. As time wore on the 3rd edition default setting was the vague setting just like it will be in 4th edition.
Yes the greyhawk Gods such as Pelor and Vecna still existed...but it wasnt greyhawk anymore.
There are many D&D books that were not setting spacific..but I will pick a random one and give an example.
RACES OF STONE - The book contains brand new Dwarven and Gnomish pantheons of gods. They arent Greyhawk..they are the generic D&D Dwarven and Gnomish Pantheons. They also talk about example cities and places that do not exist anywhere in Greyhawk. Where is the Dwarven city of Kroesus (the fabeled first city to have a dwarven king) or the location of Uruz the City of Granite? Certainly nowhere on the Greyhawk map. Then there are the Goliaths.
That book is just one example of many. So this unfinished vague default setting is not a new concept to 4th edition.
So I was looking through the Worlds & Monsters book and on the whole I was very impressed. A whole fresh world, with historical underpinnings for its races, whole nations and cultures, unfolding histories. They even give some names for this place--Creation (which, okay, was lifted straight outta' Exalted *sigh*) and The Middle Realm (which I really kind of like, halfway between the Elemental Vortex and the Astral Sea, and likewise straddling the Shadowfel on one side and the Feywild on the other).
So what my take on what we've seen is the following: The default world, named "The Middle Realm" or "The World" or whatever it might be called will be the assumed world. In it, there is a rich history, the rise and fall of civilizations, epic battles and ancient decayed cities just waiting for plunder. In modules, these places will be referenced. For instance, the Tiefling city of Bael'Turath (I must admit, I like the name) might be mentioned by a Tiefling Cultist of Orcus who is the boss of a module.
However, the game will never tell you "Bael'Turath is 50 miles north of the Keep on the Borderlands." Locations will never be somewhere specific. Instead we will see vague rumours, persistent references and references to particularly famous places. Will we also see reference to famous NPCs from other modules? I dunno, but my gut says no.
I don't think we'll see a fully developed and fleshed out world with maps and specifics ala the (Old) Forgotten Realms or Eberron where certain things are placed in certain areas, etc. But the basic presumption is that players will all be functioning within the same core world, unless the DM chooses otherwise.
I'd be really surprised if we eventually saw a fully fleshed out and developed world out of the name-dropping of Worlds and Monsters.
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I do recall reading in a Dragon magazine that the president of WOTC (whoever that was at the beginning of 3.0) laid down the law saying that Greyhawk was the default setting. I'm guessing there were some hopes and plans and then it crashed and burned for whatever reasons.
That was Peter Adkison. And yeah, your recollections are pretty accurate.
What I wouldn't give for a bit of backbone amongst these guys!
Peter DID have a backbone, and the department and company had a strong vision and a direction for D&D. When he left WotC after the buyout from Hasbro, all that direction began a slide away from the original plan, in my opinion.
I'm certainly not saying that was the end of D&D or anything by any means, I thought the stuff WotC put out over the past few years has been great, but there was a shift away from what I heard him talking about that was left out to dry.
-DM Jeff
Anyhow it kills me that I'm constantly having to spindoctor and make sense of things that I'm paying $40 a pop on. I don't see where it would have killed them to make their "World" into, y'know, a world. Anyway if they're not gonna' than I will. Just drives me nuts. It's like nobody's seen a Campaign Setting before--like we'll all freak out and think that their Core Setting is the only one we can play in. I just don't get it.
Considering the number of people who, in fact, do seem to freak out at numerous changes to the core generic fluff, I'd say that this is possibly a valid concern. On the other hand, of course, I enjoy the vaguely defined (completely mapless) world, as that gives me a skeletal structure for a homebrew that is pretty extensible. But then I guess lazy DMing is my aspiration. ;)
Mapless and vaguely defined is cool. I really dig that. It gives the world both the flexibility to be sculpted by the DM and the freedom to drop in modules or whatever wherever you choose. Heck you can even drop in stuff from the previous editions that formerly had no home (Races of Stone is a wonderful example, by the way--so is Cityscape, both books that are so good you wish there was a world to go with them!)
The Bael'Turath thing is another one of those things I really like. Much like the fallen Roman Empire, everyone hears about it constantly and sees its ruins laying around. They may even live in what was once one of its mighty provinces, but yet there's still this sense of the greater world being dark and full of dread potency. I love that.
Using it as a template for Eberron or Faerun? I'm not sure. There never was a Bael'Turath in either of those places, and trying to port one into each setting will feel mondo cheesy. Having one freeform mapless world is a heckova' lot of fun. Having every setting--even the ones with maps turn all mapless and amorphous is like hitting the whole game with a chaos-beast ray. That gives me the stabby migrane.
What WotC has done with their "World" if you want to call it that is Crap. A year from now, they'll be charging you $40 to get the "Real Core World" when they realize how weak what they're doing is.
What WotC has done with their "World" if you want to call it that is Crap. A year from now, they'll be charging you $40 to get the "Real Core World" when they realize how weak what they're doing is.
What don't you particularly like about it, if I might ask?
3.0 was geared to Greyhawk as the default world, with expansions in the Gazetteer, Sword and Fist, Song and Silence, Tome and Blood, Defenders of the Faith, and Masters of the Wild. With the release of 3.5, that changed.
3.5 had Greyhawk as the "default" world in name only. Apart from the pantheon in the PHB (with an expansion in Complete Divine) and a few references that were pretty campaign neutral, 3.5 had effectively no Greyhawk support (apart from Dungeon and Dragon magazines under Paizo). It seemed to exist simply as a source of ideas to strip-mine and use for generic products, while the Forgotten Realms was pushed as the "official" setting.
4e seems to have expanded this concept to Krynn and the Forgotten Realms. The 4e world design seems to be: take bits and pieces from a few settings, mix them together with the "points of light" concept, and create a "setting" where you don't need to worry about coherence or continuity. This will enable them to make every new race, class, power, etc. "official" because each community in a "points of light" world is basically an independent setting, anyway. Eberron seems to be the lone exception to this mindset, at the moment.