I know there are several threads out there discussing this topic, but most of these either digressed or turned into (or started out as) a flamewar or ad hominem attacks.
I´m interested in discussing the merits or lack of it, now that we have several issues online in WotCs DI.
I am personally underwhelmed with the first few issues I´ve seen. It starts out that my login to Insider is reset every few weeks. (At paizo, I don´t need to log in every few weeks, and that is the way I prefer it.)
The first Dragon was offered as a compiled pdf. To date, this was not offered for the following issues, neither for the Dungeon issues. The layout of the articles was questionable, with bad-set margins and no respect for the art. The content itself was ok. I did not like the new treatment of the Death Knights, contradicting the older versions, but that is a more matter of taste. This "Confessions" piece is not worth the space IMO. The piece about Graz´zt was good. The Dukes of Hell was a good read as well, I appreciated the fluff more than the crunch. The Dragon hoard of Ebberon is useful, but limited, as it contains Eberron-specific info. Still, it is a worksaver.
The content of Dungeon was ok, as far is I read it. The Tsojcanth piece was a well-done rehash of the original.
As I had no desire to download several single articles, but rather wanted to wait for the compiled issues, I did not read the content after the first online issues of each mag. So, wizards probably lose me due to lackluster performance in this regard. I missed bookmarks in the Dragon 360 pdf as well - honestly, I expect as much in a pdf.
Conclusion: The content is, on average, ok (three stars for Dragon, perhaps four for Dungeon. The presentation is awful - so much so that I´m willing to ignore further issues. It starts with the login hassle, continues with failing to present the compiled issues in a timely manner, and not providing bookmarks on the completed pdf. I know these issues are free, but this way, WotC does not convince me to pay for the content later on.
For me, Dragon and Dungeon are pretty much dead now - sadly.
Stefan
I can quite easily understand your problems with the DDI or digital Dragon and Dungeon.
1) I never much cared for Dragon, I have a few issues (3-4 I think), so I am not going to rate Dragon because I don't have enough material to compare the two. I do recommend Kobold Quarterly, which amazes me every time, as an alternative.
2) Dungeon, the Paizo Dungeon taught me a great deal about adventure design and different DM styles and play, because I run my own campaign I never could run any of them (yet) but sometimes the material could be altered and used. I am now running The Styes which is great fun, and I've used the city of Alhaster background, I so want to run the adventure 1 of the age of worms. Comparing that to the digital Dungeon I am not impressed...... The delve format is just useless and the stories presented suffer because of it. Also the senseless plugging of new monsters just sucks. The first part of the Tsjocanth adventure I liked, it then devolved into mindless slaughter and set pieces. I liked the Dagon adventure (setup and first 3/4 were excellent) but the rest left me uninspired.
Isn't the login issue actually a necessity, given that there will be a monthly charge in the future?
The content has been poor enough that I, too, stopped paying attention a while back, except for an occasional (less than once a month peek) visit to see if they've fixed the layout. Speaking of which - the layout of their site seriously detracts from my ability to appreciate anything they post, as I have found no way of knowing what is new without clicking through every little button and link. Sometimes someone will mention there's something there I should read, and it takes me far too long to figure out where on their site I can find the article in question.
I expect that they'll have to pay more attention (read: assign more resources) to the site when they're ready to start charging money. But I really hope they realize they also need to extend the "free" period through the end of the year, to win back (read: get a second change at) those of us who are already turned off by their lack of support so far.
Summary: I'm very pro-4E, but extremely dissatisfied with the web site/DI, and unlikely to subscribe unless they (1) make massive improvements soon, (2) assign people whose primary responsibility is to the DI so it stays up to date, and (3) continue the "free" period long enough to give me a chance to see the improvements.
Isn't the login issue actually a necessity, given that there will be a monthly charge in the future?
It surely is - but as long as I pay for it, I expect that I don´t need to login anew every few weeks - it should be possible to handle that with a little bit of programming. As long as I accept cookies on my machine and pay for the content, I should not need to login, or at least have my login data saved that the access is easier (say, like ebay - click one button, and you are logged in). Typing in my login data every time anew is a needless hassle IMO.
Stefan
Nick Logue's testimony has assuaged my fears about 4th ed, but not to the extent that I'll be picking it up soon- even if I was, a major bugbear is the shambolic state of DDI and the virtual magazines in particular. The presentation is lamentable and beyond amateurish, the navigation is horrible and the quality of material is patchy. As it stands, there is nothing there for me to make me feel to cough up any of my money.
Not to threadjack, but did I hear correctly that they'll be charging for virtual minis on the virtual game table? Say it ain't so.
For me, Dragon and Dungeon are pretty much dead now - sadly.
I agree.
I see little evidence that WotC wants to produce the material Dragon and Dungeon have historically provided.
What I think they do want is to dangle the (fairly empty) promise of online magazines in front of us to suck us into D&D Insider -- or, more to the point, get us to send $10 or $15 to them each month.
...did I hear correctly that they'll be charging for virtual minis on the virtual game table? Say it ain't so.
That's my understanding.
I have a prediction regarding this push toward online play -- disaster.
Of course, after their business plan fails (if I'm right), we'll still be without Dungeon or Dragon magazine, or Forgotten Realms, or any of 4/e's other casualties (BTW I fully expect them to also revamp Eberron to the point of unrecognizability).
One positive thing though: I can now concentrate on closing the gaps in my collection of the mags, instead of spending money on the current issues...
Stefan
Well, I thought the game really bit the big one. It almost in no way represents the D&D game; I find it very interesting that the game as per the rules in the book was unplayable in their estimation; funny that, but they still push the book game on us. For me, the name was the only similarity; the classes and how things work are very different. I tried several classes and races and stuff; the game was very booring and repetative and the community of players was so so. It is not a horrible game, just not for me.
Valegrim, the topic is not about D&D Online (the MMORPG).
This is about the online versions of the magazines "Dragon" and "Dungeon", comparing their new electronic format (on WotC website) to their former version on paper (published by Paizo).
Oops - seems I could have chosen a thread title a bit mor non-ambiguous. Sorry for the confusion. Yes, indeed, I wanted to muse about and compare the online vs. the print version of the mags.
Stefan
It has been more than four weeks since even a single adventure has been posted in 'Dungeon.'
The absence of any new adventures AT ALL makes Dungeon Online just a wee bit inferior to Dungeon Magazine.
The fact that they haven't even bothered with compiled .pdfs has really bugged me. I'd rather have a complete issue on my computer that I can browse at my leisure than a number of separate articles. The content itself is okay but not up to the same standards as what Paizo was putting out, especially toward the end there.
IMO right now DDI is is faltering and may well collapse if Wizards doesn't pull it together soon. They have to potential to put out a decent product but have fallen short of doing that so far.
The absence of any new adventures AT ALL makes Dungeon Online just a wee bit inferior to Dungeon Magazine.Only a wee bit? :(
Easy Mike, I think that Riley was using the fine art of understatement. For those that don't habla, he probably meant "loads" or "there is no comparison" or such. Of course, I could be wrong.
But I certainly agree that Dungeon is overall quite inferior in its current format to the Paizo years, due to lack of output for one and widely varying (but overall poor) quality of what has been produced. Dragon falls even further by the wayside. I give Dragon 1 1/2 stars, Dungeon 2 stars. Paizo Dragon and Dungeon: 5 stars each.
The absence of any new adventures AT ALL makes Dungeon Online just a wee bit inferior to Dungeon Magazine.Only a wee bit? :(
Yes, understatement. I'm trying to be civil - and not bitter.
My subscriber line accurately reflects my opinion of Paizo's past and present products.
Similarly, I pay an amount of money for access to 'Dungeon' and 'Dragon' online which accurately reflects my opinion of those online products.
Now it's time to get back to my D&D reading. Guess which one I'll choose: "Spires of Xin-Shalast," or "The Best Adventure I Never Wrote"?
'Nuf said.
Valegrim, the topic is not about D&D Online (the MMORPG).
This is about the online versions of the magazines "Dragon" and "Dungeon", comparing their new electronic format (on WotC website) to their former version on paper (published by Paizo).
ah; well then I have no interest; seems like a silly, useless thing to me; have fun.
Bitterness, a taste of realism. Do it, experience it.
Sometimes that career in advertising looks mighty promising ;>
It has been more than four weeks since even a single adventure has been posted in 'Dungeon.'
The absence of any new adventures AT ALL makes Dungeon Online just a wee bit inferior to Dungeon Magazine.
It's a quicker read, though. Much quicker. I don't even have to leave the home page most of the time...
For comparison's sake, pick up any printed Dungeon, which usually contained three adventures. Even if all three of them sucked, there was probably an encounter or NPC or something that could be cut and pasted into something else. Then contemplate Online Dungeon for January 2008, which consisted of a poll question, one weak-tea column on table management, and one uninspired side trek.
Online Dragon holds up a little better, since it occasionally has some content. Unfortunately, it seems to mostly be the design notes and promos that were already available, for free, on the same website.
At this point it's more likely that I'll become pope than that I'll pay money for Online Dungeon and Dragon.
Oh, go ahead. Be bitter. Come on, you know you want to. Everybody else is doing it.
No, I will never embrace bitterness. Riley is, after all, my enthusiastic bard alter ego. A character whose answer is always "yes!" A character who always looks before he leaps. A character who will cheerfully face any challenge the gods throw at us.
When an orc chieftain threatened a friend, of course Riley tackled the orc chieftain, and together they plummeted off the roof of the building.
When the fighters hesitated in protecting our fallen comrades from a pack of hungry ghouls, of course Riley bravely charged to their rescue.
Riley is, in short, the perfect cure for all my worst, overly-cautious gaming tendencies. God, how I love playing Riley.
No, Riley will never embrace bitterness.
Yes, Riley was eaten by those ghouls.
But no, Riley will never be bitter. And neither will I.
- Patrick
At this point it's more likely that I'll become pope than that I'll pay money for Online Dungeon and Dragon.
But you'd make a good pope.
They need to do some work on the presentation before I'll be interested in looking at the content. The over-busyness of the page overwhelms some genuinely decent elements they have there. But the real killer is burying the name of articles in tiny type behind the issue number. It just doesn't feel very fun. Lots of usability issues here. More than I want to fight through right now.
And tiny type over insufficiently-lightened "parchment" with images on it? Ugh. Just ugh. Spare my eyes the palimpsests, guys, please.
This may be a little threadjacky but have we seen new names turning up at digital dragon and dungeon? Most adventures seem to have been written by wotc regulars and experienced freelancers, don't know about any new dragon writers but what is your experience in this?
Contributor
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This may be a little threadjacky but have we seen new names turning up at digital dragon and dungeon? Most adventures seem to have been written by wotc regulars and experienced freelancers, don't know about any new dragon writers but what is your experience in this?
They are probably waiting until potential new writers see the 4e rules before they start looking for new blood. Even some established writers are struggling to get their stuff accepted.
They are probably waiting until potential new writers see the 4e rules before they start looking for new blood. Even some established writers are struggling to get their stuff accepted.This may be a little threadjacky but have we seen new names turning up at digital dragon and dungeon? Most adventures seem to have been written by wotc regulars and experienced freelancers, don't know about any new dragon writers but what is your experience in this?
Well, that ofcourse leads to the question: what happened to all my beautiful submissions ;>
So you ask for submissions, but don't actually do anything with them when you receive them. I would call that a lost opportunity to further test your publishing process.
But if they kept accepting and publishing material for 3.5 then the non-in-house-monetary-resources...err..."customers" would have less reason to adopt the obviously superior new and improved version of your product.
Having, at one time, been a customer of certain Workshops devoted to Games, I can attest that it royally sucks to purchase a new subset of rules to have it replaced/gotten rid of in a couple months/weeks by a brand new edition of the game. So I do appreciate that aspect of it.
Also, if the NIHMRs...dangit "customers" are sufficiently starved of currently useful product they will, in theory, binge on whatever is put before them without much thought.
Please pay no mind to my unnecessary bitterness. I tried to reduce it, but was only partially successful.
And I miss the campaign workbooks.......
And I miss the campaign workbooks.......
Many of the campaign workbook authors collaborated and put together similar articles in this book here. If you drop by the chatroom, I'll let slip the Table of Contents and let you roll on some of the table in the book.
Shameless promotion, I know, but it's my first writing credit in a book! I'm excited, and I can't help it!
Lilith, I just wanted to post something like "shameless plug!" before I saw your "disclaimer" :-) No worries, I already got the book in my shopping cart.
Stefan
Our website team has also expanded, and it now includes Chris "Conan" Youngs, who handles the Dragon and Dungeon magazine components...
(from today's Online Dragon editorial)
Unless I'm reading it wrong, one poor beleagured man is trying to do the work of an entire editorial staff by himself. Could this explain a few things?
I, like many, strongly dislike the move to the DDI. That being said, in the last 3 months, the Dungeon magazines have had some EXCELLENT adventures. In particular, "Essence of Evil" (20th level romp with Lareth the Beautiful from RttToEE & stop Tharizdun from escaping); and most recently, an add-on to Return to the Tomb of Horrors.
Do check them out folks.
Allan, I concur that there is some great material to be had. But this is more a merit of the contributors than of WotCs DDI, which is still lacking in perfomance IMO. Thanks for the pointer, however.
Stefan
And I miss the campaign workbooks.......Many of the campaign workbook authors collaborated and put together similar articles in this book here. If you drop by the chatroom, I'll let slip the Table of Contents and let you roll on some of the table in the book.
** spoiler omitted **
I've seen the preview at goodman games and although that one is fun I am really looking for something with a little more meat on it.
(I am going to use no. 19, the missing poster ;>)
Maybe goodman should provide a table of content, WotC did it most of the time.
Allan, I concur that there is some great material to be had. But this is more a merit of the contributors than of WotCs DDI, which is still lacking in perfomance IMO. Thanks for the pointer, however.
Stefan
I agree with you that the content is likely due to the authors in question. That said, when WoTC does something right, let's give them their due. We've all made plenty of negative comments about WoTC since the announcement of 4th edition; and many are valid criticisms. When they do a good job, it's only fair that we say so.
I agree with you that the content is likely due to the authors in question. That said, when WoTC does something right, let's give them their due. We've all made plenty of negative comments about WoTC since the announcement of 4th edition; and many are valid criticisms. When they do a good job, it's only fair that we say so.Allan, I concur that there is some great material to be had. But this is more a merit of the contributors than of WotCs DDI, which is still lacking in perfomance IMO. Thanks for the pointer, however.
Stefan
I would like to applaud GGG's latest effort at WotC. Very well done, that delve format however kind of sucks.
They are probably waiting until potential new writers see the 4e rules before they start looking for new blood. Even some established writers are struggling to get their stuff accepted.
First off, I am a n00b to this thing called getting published.
Still, that said, I just wish that they would have responded to digital Dragon/Dungeon queries, even a no comment rejection email. I especially wish that they would have replied in some fashion to full pieces they asked to see (or to emails asking for their status after WotC's 30 day timeline to respond to such submissions had passed).
Heck, even an email filled with bold text saying "your ideas stink, burn the manuscript before it infects the rest of the multiverse with its ickyness" would have been appreciated rather than 4 months and no response to 5+ emails and PMs.
It's an information blackhole over there.
Far as I'm concerned there was a only a single issue of Dragon and no issues of Dungeon since the paper magazines were cancelled.
Where are the complied pdfs???
I havent downloaded and looked at anything other than that compleated Dragon issue. Ive been waiting for the finished magazines.
Whats going on with that?
Far as I'm concerned there was a only a single issue of Dragon and no issues of Dungeon since the paper magazines were cancelled.
Where are the complied pdfs???
I havent downloaded and looked at anything other than that compleated Dragon issue. Ive been waiting for the finished magazines.
Whats going on with that?
I would very much like to have compiled pdfs as well. I would even get them printed and maybe bound, but I don´t want to print and sort several single files to get one issue. I´m sad to see this kind of treatment.
EDIT: I just wanted to post about this on WotCs boards, but after being unable to start a new thread and also unable to find a hint why, I gave up. Anyone a clue?
Stefan
Far as I'm concerned there was a only a single issue of Dragon and no issues of Dungeon since the paper magazines were cancelled.
Where are the complied pdfs???
I havent downloaded and looked at anything other than that compleated Dragon issue. Ive been waiting for the finished magazines.
Whats going on with that?
For there to be compiled PDF magazines, there first has to be enough material to fill a magazine. Putting out a "monthly" PDF every three or four months would just highlight the embarassing lack of content.
Or: the online magazines' editing section might be woefully understaffed. If I were Chris Youngs, and I had to choose between putting out new material and compiling PDFs of old material, I'd let the PDFs wait.
I'm leaning toward the first possibility, myself, but that might be because I'm generally bitter and disappointed in Online Dungeon and Dragonm, and I can't rule the second possibility out entirely.
Far as I'm concerned there was a only a single issue of Dragon and no issues of Dungeon since the paper magazines were cancelled.
Where are the complied pdfs???
I havent downloaded and looked at anything other than that compleated Dragon issue. Ive been waiting for the finished magazines.
Whats going on with that?
For there to be compiled PDF magazines, there first has to be enough material to fill a magazine. Putting out a "monthly" PDF every three or four months would just highlight the embarassing lack of content.
Or: the online magazines' editing section might be woefully understaffed. If I were Chris Youngs, and I had to choose between putting out new material and compiling PDFs of old material, I'd let the PDFs wait.
I'm leaning toward the first possibility, myself, but that might be because I'm generally bitter and disappointed in Online Dungeon and Dragonm, and I can't rule the second possibility out entirely.
ONE GUY?
They have ONE GUY in charge of both Dragon & Dungeon content? Their Online flagship initiative to both bring in new gamers and give solid content every month for adventures, rules, ideas, and new stuff for both their tabletop & online experience?
ONE guy?
Ok, I love to dabble but I am in no way part of this industry. Is ONE guy enough for this kind of position of content producer for both Dungeon and Dragon online magazines? Maybe I'm mistaken and thinking thinking that this guy is just in charge and not actually trying to write the lions share of the content by himself.
One guy.... I hope he's got a three year head start!
Thank goodness for Pathfinder.
Contributor
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Chris Youngs does have other folks working with him, but it does seem to be a smaller staff than Paizo had. I don't really know how many people in either case though.
And while I agree that the content has been much lower over all than the print mags, There have actually been several Dungeon adventures, and most of them were longer than most adventures published by Paizo. Of course, they've all been in the page-eating delve format.
I also do have the impression that they've decided to treat the Dungeon adventures more like individual modules rather than compile them, and for the adventures, that actually seems like the most sensible course to me.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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The fact that they haven't even bothered with compiled .pdfs has really bugged me. I'd rather have a complete issue on my computer that I can browse at my leisure than a number of separate articles. The content itself is okay but not up to the same standards as what Paizo was putting out, especially toward the end there.
IMO right now DDI is is faltering and may well collapse if Wizards doesn't pull it together soon. They have to potential to put out a decent product but have fallen short of doing that so far.
Yep. So much for Dungeon and Dragon "going home". Like most other WotC digital efforts, the online magazines are faltering from lack of support and commitment.
I tried to follow Dragon/Dungeon on line. I told my players that if they ever made it a subscription service, I'd sign up for it. However, from everything I've seen, from the crappy layout to the lack well, anything of meat, I stopped paying attention. I use to hit the site daily (if not more) now maybe I swing over to the WoTC site once a week, if I feel like I can be bothered to do so.
However, I now spend a lot of time here...guess which I think is a better bang for the buck?