Noticed on a few sample Character Sheets referenced in various threads that some folks have combined "Hide" and "Move Silently" into a "Stealth" skill; same for "Spot" + "Search" + "Listen" into "Perception".
I believe that the True20 system does this as well, as part of their "streamlining", and tho I am not enamored enough of the system to swap totally, this is a change I'd love to make to my 3.5 game, and was wondering what the community's experiences/thoughts would be on the matter.
Thanks in advance for your considered wisdom. ;)
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I think pairing some skills would be a good idea. PCs often lack skill points and it sound dumb to roll 2 dices for some actions (like trying to sneak in the woods).
I would propose those pairings :
Hide + Move Silenty = Stealth
Spot + Listen = Perception
Jump + Tumble = Acrobatics
Open Lock + Disable Device = Thievery
I think some of the skills, specifically those mentioned above were to similar. The descriptions themselves were poorly written and did not sufficiently define themselves. A little bit of trimming on the skills would be an improvement.
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I've been thinking about taking this approach for some time, it really does bother me that there are so many skills and far too few skill points to spend on them. I like the idea of Stealth and Perception and so on as individual skills (and it seems pretty well implemented in Star Wars Saga Edition (and probably 4th edition, too)), but it seems like it would take a little extra work that I don't really want to do to change 3.5 to do that.
Even though it seems like a minor change, it does have some ramifications: there are spells, magic items, and special abilities whose descriptions would have to be changed. For example, boots of elvenkind, do they provide the full +5 to Stealth? Or do they only work when you also have a cloak of elvenkind? These aren't complicated questions, but you have to think about them before you begin to DM so that your players know entirely what to expect from the changes.
There's also the fact that these skills don't necessarily easily come together all the time. I agree that Stealth makes a lot of sense, but what about Spot and Listen? There are plenty of people who can see very well but are not very good at noticing sounds. And to me, at least, Search doesn't seem to fit very well with these skills, they're very different skills to learn.
Also, this solution doesn't really help some of the classes that need help the most (ie: Fighters and Clerics, among others), since their primary skills will probably remain seperated.
Don't get me wrong, I think folding skills into another skill is a good idea (and I liked it when they folded some less useful skills into other skills in 3.5), but you have to be careful to check all the minute differences it'll make for the rules.
This is why I'm thinking of just giving every class an extra two skill points per level in my next campaign. This shouldn't change any of the game mechanics, and it helps out every class equally. I think it'll really help out Fighters, Clerics, and Sorcerers quite a bit, and allow Rogues and Rangers to dabble into some lesser-used skills to better define their character.
I use the following:
Listen + Spot = Perception
Bluff + Diplomacy = Persuade
Hide + Move Silently = Stealth
I don't like the common (seeming) suggestion of "combine move & hide into stealth". It would be way to easy to create an uber rogue with little effort that would be impossible to find except for another character with maxed "perception" who would by necessity have to be higher level then the rogue.
I like the concept of being unseen but not unheard or being visible but silent.
Maybe for the really rarely used skills like balance and forgery. Combining them together with something is no big deal but most of the rest? Nah, they get enough use to warrant their own skill slot.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I don't like the common (seeming) suggestion of "combine move & hide into stealth". It would be way to easy to create an uber rogue with little effort that would be impossible to find except for another character with maxed "perception" who would by necessity have to be higher level then the rogue.
I like the concept of being unseen but not unheard or being visible but silent.
Maybe for the really rarely used skills like balance and forgery. Combining them together with something is no big deal but most of the rest? Nah, they get enough use to warrant their own skill slot.
That sums it up for me. I like the idea of the commando with sharp ears, or the guy wth keen vision, but average (or lower) hearing (Clint Barton anyone?)
I'm surprised you use balance as an example. Balance and Tumble are used a lot in our games. Then again our new player is playing a battle sorcerer with Grease
I don't like the common (seeming) suggestion of "combine move & hide into stealth". It would be way to easy to create an uber rogue with little effort that would be impossible to find except for another character with maxed "perception" who would by necessity have to be higher level then the rogue.
I like the concept of being unseen but not unheard or being visible but silent.
Maybe for the really rarely used skills like balance and forgery. Combining them together with something is no big deal but most of the rest? Nah, they get enough use to warrant their own skill slot.
That sums it up for me. I like the idea of the commando with sharp ears, or the guy wth keen vision, but average (or lower) hearing (Clint Barton anyone?)
I'm surprised you use balance as an example. Balance and Tumble are used a lot in our games. Then again our new player is playing a battle sorcerer with Grease
I find tumble is used way more then balance.
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I go with;
Balance + Tumble = Acrobatics
Hide + Move Silently = Stealth
Listen + Spot = Notice
Disable Device + Open Locks = Disable Device
Notice also covers detecting / sensing stuff via taste, scent or touch.
Rogues, Bards and Rangers end up with a lot of skills under this paradigm, which doesn't bug me. I've yet to have an overpowered skillmonkey in any of my games. Skills <<<< Feats < Spells and Class Abilities.
I like the True20 consolidation, and might go with it for my next campaign:
Tumble + Balance = Acrobatics
Move silent + Hide = Stealth
Spot + Listen = Notice
Open locks + Disable device = Disable Device
and Forgery is a profession, which doesn't really make it work any differently.
So do people add the +4 size modifier to Stealth? I like that small creatures are hard to see but not neccessarily quieter.
I like the True20 consolidation, and might go with it for my next campaign:
Tumble + Balance = Acrobatics
Move silent + Hide = Stealth
Spot + Listen = Notice
Open locks + Disable device = Disable Deviceand Forgery is a profession, which doesn't really make it work any differently.
Wouldn't forgery be considered (craft) not (profession)?
So do people add the +4 size modifier to Stealth? I like that small creatures are hard to see but not neccessarily quieter.
My guess would be to divide those types of bonuses in half and round down.
Halfling: +4 hide -> +2 "stealth"
Boots of Elven Kind: +5 Move Silently -> +2 "stealth"
Cloak of Elven kind: +5 Hide -> +2 "stealth"
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I don't like the pairings, while I do agree that there are too few skill points, I think there are the right amount of skills...just because you know how to ransack a room doesn't mean your hearing is phenomenal
I've been toying with the idea of my player/major characters all having a 0-level of expert for extra skill points, which represents their time before becoming an adventurer...then I suppose I'll add extra skill points to additional levels.
Fighters get shafted on skills...BIG time...
While sticking to my 3.5+ game I'll be adding more skill points, somehow...
I´ve been toying with the idea to change the skills as well, but there are some things to mind, as the skill system is deeply integrated into the game. For now, I give the classes that have only 2 points per level in the RAW 4 per level, and leave the others alone. Seems to work quite well.
But I will give it some more thoughts with my next campaign.
Stefan
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The other skill I 'fix' is Use Rope. Loser skill. If you 'use a rope' when climbing, it's a Climb check. If you are trying to wiggle out of a rope, it's an Escape Artist check. If you are trying to tie a good knot, whether to secure goods or people, try Profession (sailor, lawman, slaver, teamster).
Use Rope. Seriously, what the heck? Instead of 'Profession: Cook' or 'Ride' should I have 'Use Dinnerware' or 'Use Horse,' to cover all the neat possible things I could 'use' my dinnerware (or horse) for, other than the recommended uses?
I don't like the pairings, while I do agree that there are too few skill points, I think there are the right amount of skills...just because you know how to ransack a room doesn't mean your hearing is phenomenal
Agreed, which is why I don't like the idea of getting rid of Search. I only combine Listen + Spot into a Notice skill to represent some being observant with any of their five (or more, or less) senses.
Fighters get shafted on skills...BIG time...
Easiest 'quick fix' IMO is just to have all of the 2+Int mod classes (Fighter, Cleric, etc) move up to 4+Int mod for skills. Rangers, Bards and Rogues will still have more skills than anyone else, but the Fighters (and other classes at the 'short end' of the skill pool) will be able to walk and chew bubble gum at the same time.
The other skill I 'fix' is Use Rope. Loser skill. If you 'use a rope' when climbing, it's a Climb check. If you are trying to wiggle out of a rope, it's an Escape Artist check. If you are trying to tie a good knot, whether to secure goods or people, try Profession (sailor, lawman, slaver, teamster).
Use Rope. Seriously, what the heck? Instead of 'Profession: Cook' or 'Ride' should I have 'Use Dinnerware' or 'Use Horse,' to cover all the neat possible things I could 'use' my dinnerware (or horse) for, other than the recommended uses?
Well, use rope is to see if someone knows how to make knots and other uses of rope. A sailor knows how to sail.
Specifically tying a person up requires use rope. If they (the person being tied up) want to escape, they use their escape artist skill versus the other person's rope use skill (how well they can tie the knots and such). Also it can be used for things like making impromptu harnesses especially for lowering or pulling something or someone up a cliff face.|
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Also it can be used for things like making impromptu harnesses especially for lowering or pulling something or someone up a cliff face.
See, that's the sort of pickiness that I don't feel is worth a seperate skill.
"Okay, you've got 12 ranks of Climb. And the other dude hands you this strange thing. It looks like a fifty foot long dead snake made out of woven dead grass. It makes your hands itchy, and smells like something you would normally put in a pipe and smoke. You have no freaking clue how to use it. Perhaps you could tie it around your neck to break your fall?"
Heaven forfend the poor man find a Piton, and realize that he doesn't have Use Piton skill!
Maybe for the really rarely used skills like balance and forgery. Combining them together...
Clearly this calls for a combined Swim + Craft skill for Underwater Basket Weaving!
Maybe for the really rarely used skills like balance and forgery. Combining them together...
Balance + Forgery = Equilibrium Ectype: You prefer to forge documents while walking a tightrope or on a large, colorful ball.
5 or more ranks gives a +2 synergy bonus to Perform (Calliope).
- Chris Shadowens
Maybe for the really rarely used skills like balance and forgery. Combining them together...Clearly this calls for a combined Swim + Craft skill for Underwater Basket Weaving!
I must admit a nice job of selective quoting there. But I don't understand what you are trying to get at.
Also it can be used for things like making impromptu harnesses especially for lowering or pulling something or someone up a cliff face.See, that's the sort of pickiness that I don't feel is worth a seperate skill.
"Okay, you've got 12 ranks of Climb. And the other dude hands you this strange thing. It looks like a fifty foot long dead snake made out of woven dead grass. It makes your hands itchy, and smells like something you would normally put in a pipe and smoke. You have no freaking clue how to use it. Perhaps you could tie it around your neck to break your fall?"
Heaven forfend the poor man find a Piton, and realize that he doesn't have Use Piton skill!
Rope Use exists mainly (but not only) to allow for a counter skill for Escape Artist. It sets the DC's for it and allows someone good at Rope Use to keep another person tied up (even though they have a few ranks in Escape Artist).
As to climbing though:
Does having 12 ranks in climbing allow you to strap eight 50lbs chests to a camel effectively and comfortably (for the animal)?
Or does knowing how to climb yourself allow you to know to make a harness to haul the (struggling) sacred golden bear of Hembo-Samo up the cliff of certain doom?
And as a last point. Climbing skill refers to climbing unassisted.
Got a pair of climbing gloves? Bonus.
A Rope? Bonus.
Some Pitons? Bonus.
Rope use is a skill that has broad application to ropes. Does it overlap with other skills? Yes. Does any single skill do all of what it does? No.
You feel it is useless in your games. Power to you. Have fun with one less skill. Just don’t tell me I’m being picky and imply that I'm dumb to use such a stupid skill or I’ll tell you your being an ass about it.
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I must admit a nice job of selective quoting there. But I don't understand what you are trying to get at.Maybe for the really rarely used skills like balance and forgery. Combining them together...Clearly this calls for a combined Swim + Craft skill for Underwater Basket Weaving!
I was 'trying to get at' humor. Epic fail at humor, apparently.
In the vein of the humorous 'Balance + Forgery' example, I also attempted to make the funny.
As for the rest, wow. I disagree that Use Rope is worth being a skill on it's own, and I do so without thinking that you're dumb or an ass, but feel free to think (or say, or type) whatever the heck you want about me...
I was 'trying to get at' humor. Epic fail at humor, apparently.In the vein of the humorous 'Balance + Forgery' example, I also attempted to make the funny.
As for the rest, wow. I disagree that Use Rope is worth being a skill on it's own, and I do so without thinking that you're dumb or an ass, but feel free to think (or say, or type) whatever the heck you want about me...
And I don't really think your an ass. But that is always the problem with text (no tone, no body language and such). So sorry if I missed the humor. But I did think it was a good "quote". :)
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And I don't really think your an ass. But that is always the problem with text (no tone, no body language and such). So sorry if I missed the humor. But I did think it was a good "quote". :)
I, somewhat absent-mindedly, replied to two different posts in two different tones, and didn't actually notice that both were from the same poster.
Me = Senile. Senile is me. :)
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As to climbing though:
Does having 12 ranks in climbing allow you to strap eight 50lbs chests to a camel effectively and comfortably (for the animal)?
Or does knowing how to climb yourself allow you to know to make a harness to haul the (struggling) sacred golden bear of Hembo-Samo up the cliff of certain doom?And as a last point. Climbing skill refers to climbing unassisted.
...
Rope use is a skill that has broad application to ropes. Does it overlap with other skills? Yes. Does any single skill do all of what it does? No.
similarly - do you need to have trained as a sailor to know what knots are used when on a boat? Cub Scouts learn these knots as WeBeLoS(4th-5th grade) but never have to learn how to run a sailboat (or any bigger boat) - its an option, but to have one you don't need the other. Also in Boy Scouts we learned how to make siege towers and a weak trebuchet, but I don't thing that I deserve and skill points in profession: Engineer for it (we could fling pumpkins about 50 yards if it let go correctly to make the biggest arc possible)