I especially hate how higher level characters are festooned with them, and given that some of my players are pretty inexperienced, they forget half of the items they have.
I want magic items to be objects of awe, wonder and enormous rarity.
What would happen do you think to game balance if I just scrubbed 95% of magic items from the game? All the NPCs loose their items and players don't get them either. Magic shops don't exist - you can't buy them, they are too rare. Item creation feats are super high level. Would it still be a fair fight? Obviously monsters that require magic to hit them are an issue, but I could just ignore that defensive capability.
Just a thought...
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I especially hate how higher level characters are festooned with them, and given that some of my players are pretty inexperienced, they forget half of the items they have.
I want magic items to be objects of awe, wonder and enormous rarity.
What would happen do you think to game balance if I just scrubbed 95% of magic items from the game? All the NPCs loose their items and players don't get them either. Magic shops don't exist - you can't buy them, they are too rare. Item creation feats are super high level. Would it still be a fair fight? Obviously monsters that require magic to hit them are an issue, but I could just ignore that defensive capability.
Just a thought...
It would still be difficult. Some classes don't need magic items as much as others. Also, what's the difference between getting a magic sword or having the wizard cast greater magic weapon? You would need to seriously limit magic in general -- not just items. Also, monsters are set up assuming that certain magic is available to the party. So, not only would you need to increase the CR of the creature, some creatures would be near impossible to affect without some major tweaking of the stat blocks.
I understand what you are saying though. You might want to look at some of the systems that have a much lower level of magic. Others here know more about them than I do, but I think that Iron Kingdoms is one of them.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Two suggestions from trimming the Christmas tree 3.x style thoughts.
1) add in the defense bonus rules, either from UA or from Green Ronin's Advanced Game Mastery Manual.
2) Because Save or Dies and Save or Sucks become less reliable, I predict you'll see a return of direct damage spells at higher levels.
You would need to seriously limit magic in general -- not just items.
That's true. I'm trying something like this with my group, and I've limited spellcasting to the bard class. It can be done, but requires more planning along the way as you balance specific threats.
Some classes don't need magic items as much as others.
Surely that presupposes you need magic? I don't see what you mean by this.
Also, what's the difference between getting a magic sword or having the wizard cast greater magic weapon?
I don't see that as a problem. The magical buffs available to wizards and clerics could still be available. Everyone has access to them, so no problem. What you would loose is all those pesky potions of Mage Armour and Shield of Faith. Admittedly, a bad guy whose tactics rely on quaffing half a dozen potions before combat is going to be hard done by, but that would be rare enough.
Also, monsters are set up assuming that certain magic is available to the party.
Well - granted some beasties need specific magic to combat, but that would be where magic weapon spells come in I suppose. So long as the players had some fore-warning as to their opponents, they should be able to cope. And if they really do require a specific magic item, well, then they have to go find it first. Maybe they can borrow it from a temple or something. But the vast majority of monsters would not fall into that category - wouldn't they?
I suppose part of the problem would be higher level non-magic users not having access to magical protection. Hmmm - maybe some sort of magical tattoo that can't be removed....
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Some classes don't need magic items as much as others.Surely that presupposes you need magic? I don't see what you mean by this.
Also, what's the difference between getting a magic sword or having the wizard cast greater magic weapon?I don't see that as a problem. The magical buffs available to wizards and clerics could still be available. Everyone has access to them, so no problem. What you would loose is all those pesky potions of Mage Armour and Shield of Faith. Admittedly, a bad guy whose tactics rely on quaffing half a dozen potions before combat is going to be hard done by, but that would be rare enough.
Also, monsters are set up assuming that certain magic is available to the party.Well - granted some beasties need specific magic to combat, but that would be where magic weapon spells come in I suppose. So long as the players had some fore-warning as to their opponents, they should be able to cope. And if they really do require a specific magic item, well, then they have to go find it first. Maybe they can borrow it from a temple or something. But the vast majority of monsters would not fall into that category - wouldn't they?
And 45 pages of houserules later, you have the game you want. Nobody is saying it can't be done, but just know that the path is going to be arduous. It isn't just a "whip out these items, remove DR and roll". You will need to downgrade cleric,wizards and sorcerers greatly to keep classes balanced, you are gonna need to look at possibly giving fighters something more to keep them viable, certain spells will need to be seriously nerfed or removed, feat adjustments for Magic Item creation changed and monsters' abilities scanned and adjusted to balance them.
Not a task I would want to look into, especially when several games already have done this (Iron Kingdoms, which is D20 I believe, is the major one I know of). Buy a book and you are finished, instead of a couple months adjusting the current rules.That is my suggestion.
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Some classes don't need magic items as much as others.
Surely that presupposes you need magic? I don't see what you mean by this.
Mostly a balance issue. A wizard without magic items isn't nearly as hampered as a fighter or a rogue.
Also, what's the difference between getting a magic sword or having the wizard cast greater magic weapon?
I don't see that as a problem. The magical buffs available to wizards and clerics could still be available. Everyone has access to them, so no problem. What you would loose is all those pesky potions of Mage Armour and Shield of Faith.
Ok, but now instead you have the cleric or wizard casting those spells on everyone for every combat with effects that are typically more powerful than those found in most potions. How is it any different having potions of pesky spells than it would be to have the spell casters casting those pesky spells. And having a potion with 'pesky' mage armor for one hour is one thing. Having the 10th level wizard cast 'pesky' mage armor for 10 hours is another thing entirely. Same thing with Shield of Faith -- There is a big difference between having a potion that gives a +2 bonus for one minute, than having the spell cast granting a +5 bonus for 18 minutes.
Sorry. It just seems to me that if you allow spells, the "peskiness" of the problem is still there -- it is just in a different format.
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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What would happen do you think to game balance if I just scrubbed 95% of magic items from the game? All the NPCs loose their items and players don't get them either. Magic shops don't exist - you can't buy them, they are too rare. Item creation feats are super high level. Would it still be a fair fight? Obviously monsters that require magic to hit them are an issue, but I could just ignore that defensive capability.
Until 3.5, my group never allowed characters to buy magic items other than healing potions (for a substantial donation to the local temple, of course). Magic stores sold spell components, that's all.
Every magic item we ever had was found as treasure, or taken from an NPC. We never knew what we would find, but that was half the fun!
Even when we started allowing the purchase of magic items in 3.5, we've always started in a small town, so we are limited by the gp limit regarding which items are available for sale (and we usually end up just buying healing anyway - go figure).
This has never hindered our game play at all.
In fact, it has forced us to come up with solutions to problems using whatever tools are at hand (sometimes having to come up with creative uses for the items - both magic and mundane) rather than relying on a magic item to save the day.
Besides, I've always found that in most adventures, the magic treasure you find is often sufficient for what you need to complete the quest anyway, so buying magic items is just gravy.
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Well - granted some beasties need specific magic to combat, but that would be where magic weapon spells come in I suppose. So long as the players had some fore-warning as to their opponents, they should be able to cope. And if they really do require a specific magic item, well, then they have to go find it first. Maybe they can borrow it from a temple or something. But the vast majority of monsters would not fall into that category - wouldn't they?
That's not really what I meant. Low level creatures are really not a problem since it is generally assumed that the party doesn't have much (if any) access to magic anyway.
The higher the CR for creatures, typically the higher the hit dice, hit points, stats, armor class, caster levels, etc. since it is assumed that the party has access to magic to help keep them alive.
How many creatures are there in D&D right now that require that one magic element/item to kill it or "send it to the abyss where it came from" or some such? I really can't think of any off the top of my head. I'm not saying that you can't write it into your campaign, but it takes rewriting and reworking the existing creatures at higher levels.
Look at a simple troll (CR5) vs. a 5th level fighter. They should be an equal challenge. Let's assume that the fighter has an 18 Str and Con and a 12 Dex with Full Plate Armor, a heavy steel shield and masterworked longsword with weapon focus.
AC Fighter -- 21, AC Troll -- 16
Average Hit Points -- Fighter 47, Troll 63
Attacks
Fighter -- 1 attack, +7 to hit. (60% chance to hit)
Troll -- 3 attacks, +9, +9, +4. (45%, 45%, 20% chances to hit with a 20.25% chance of a rend).
Damage
Fighter -- 1d8+4 (although really this ends up being 1d8-1 due to the troll's regeneration.)
Troll -- 1d6+6, or 1d6+3 and an additional 2d6+9 if there is a rend.
My money is on the troll.
My point is that the CR in the monster manuals is assuming that the party has access to a certain level of magic. Yes, you can do what you are describing, but not without a lot of work.
That is how I have always handled magic items, and I've seen the same sort of results.
Until 3.5, my group never allowed characters to buy magic items other than healing potions (for a substantial donation to the local temple, of course). Magic stores sold spell components, that's all.
Every magic item we ever had was found as treasure, or taken from an NPC. We never knew what we would find, but that was half the fun!
Even when we started allowing the purchase of magic items in 3.5, we've always started in a small town, so we are limited by the gp limit regarding which items are available for sale (and we usually end up just buying healing anyway - go figure).
This has never hindered our game play at all.
In fact, it has forced us to come up with solutions to problems using whatever tools are at hand (sometimes having to come up with creative uses for the items - both magic and mundane) rather than relying on a magic item to save the day.
Besides, I've always found that in most adventures, the magic treasure you find is often sufficient for what you need to complete the quest anyway, so buying magic items is just gravy.
This is one of the reasons I do not play D&D.
This is one of the reasons I do not play D&D.
Um - so what brings you here? Are you converting the Paizo stuff to another system?
Look at a simple troll (CR5) vs. a 5th level fighter. They should be an equal challenge. Let's assume that the fighter has an 18 Str and Con and a 12 Dex with Full Plate Armor, a heavy steel shield and masterworked longsword with weapon focus.
While I'd just like to note that this is theoretically true, it has long been accepted (and even acknowledged by WotC) that the CR for class-based opponents are simply not accurate, much less when compared to monsters.
Like Larry and Elorebaen, I tend to use the gp limits of towns to limit purchases. Of course, if I am using an exisiting setting, that can be hard.
As of late, I have been looking at the Iron Heroes ruleset (varian players handbook) for just this reason. It is a drastic switch from standard 3.5, allowing for more feats (to make up what is lost in removing magical items).
In standard D&D, you might want to replace permanent items with charged items as the norm (along with potions and wands). The scabbard of keen edges is a good example of such an item.
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Like Larry and Elorebaen, I tend to use the gp limits of towns to limit purchases. Of course, if I am using an exisiting setting, that can be hard.
As of late, I have been looking at the Iron Heroes ruleset (varian players handbook) for just this reason. It is a drastic switch from standard 3.5, allowing for more feats (to make up what is lost in removing magical items).
In standard D&D, you might want to replace permanent items with charged items as the norm (along with potions and wands). The scabbard of keen edges is a good example of such an item.
Iron Heroes is what I meant in my previous post, the kids were acting crazy so I couldn't concentrate.
Consider my prior post editted.
I'm wondering if the OP hates magic in general, or is more annoyed at the sheer amount of "accounting" necessary to track all the magic that characters can acquire as the move up in levels.
If you hate all magic, then you should be playing Iron Heroes, no question. I've had a chance to play the system and it rocks. You get to create very cool heroic characters that kick a$$ and take names in a low-to-no magic world.
Instead of having items and buffs to power your character, your power comes from increasingly specialized and impressive feats and class abilities that let you stack up bonusses the longer you focus. An Iron Heroes character is mostly indifferent to their equipment.
The only downside to Iron Heroes is that there aren't many adventures wrtitten for it - certainly nothing on the level of Pathfinder, Forgotten Realms, etc. The system is meant to be "setting-independent" but most published settings contain tons of magic, so conversion would be a challenge. But even so, I was actually tempted to try it for my Pathfinder campaign. But I wussed out.
(I looked up Iron Kingdoms, which looks to be more of steam-punk D&D thing that still has techno-magic items and coal powered mechs.)
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(I looked up Iron Kingdoms, which looks to be more of steam-punk D&D thing that still has techno-magic items and coal powered mechs.)
Yeah I got confused while typing when a roaring tiger plushie whacked me in the back of the head and I needed to hurry the post a bit....
Stay-at-home fatherhood.....yeah.
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While I'd just like to note that this is theoretically true, it has long been accepted (and even acknowledged by WotC) that the CR for class-based opponents are simply not accurate, much less when compared to monsters.
I can agree with that, but that was why I compared a bruiser to a bruiser. They should be fairly close that way.
I could have compared a base mind flayer (CR8) to an 8th level fighter -- with the fighter's whopping +2 to his will save, how long do you think that fight would last?
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As of late, I have been looking at the Iron Heroes ruleset (variant players handbook) for just this reason. It is a drastic switch from standard 3.5, allowing for more feats (to make up what is lost in removing magical items).
Iron Heroes is what I meant in my previous post, the kids were acting crazy so I couldn't concentrate.
Consider my prior post editted.
I too meant Iron Heroes. I knew it was "Iron" something. I wasn't sure -- but then, I like magic.
Um - so what brings you here? Are you converting the Paizo stuff to another system?
I am currently running Burnt Offerings with Fantasy Hero.
I'm wondering if the OP hates magic in general, or is more annoyed at the sheer amount of "accounting" necessary to track all the magic that characters can acquire as the move up in levels.
My problem with magic items is just as you suggest - the overwhelming number that players fail to keep track of. I also struggle with running games with high level NPC festooned with magic. I get *very* little prep time and at about 10th level seem to spend all my time just reading up on the items.
But - I see the points being made here. Furthermore, I and my players don't have the inclination (or time) to start on a new system. We are wedded to D&D. I also want to run a pathfinder story arc. From another thread I started - it would appear that Crimson Throne is less combat oriented. I plan to run this and will tweek excessive magic items downwards. I will also make it harder to identify them. If I remove a big item, I have in mind that one player may instead discover a new power that an item they already posses has. There is something about this in Unearthed Arcana I think, but I will just wing it :p
Thanks for the comments. I don't really hate magic items, just spinning a good headline...
Um - so what brings you here? Are you converting the Paizo stuff to another system?I am currently running Burnt Offerings with Fantasy Hero.
Dude, you're a madman! How do you find time to convert everything? I guess as the DM, you can fudge the active points a bit, but then the PCs might get stomped. I tried to play a wizard in a Birthright campaign that was converted to Fantasy Hero, and it was a pain. Spellcasting systems doesn't translate into Hero very well, in my opinion.
My problem with magic items is just as you suggest - the overwhelming number that players fail to keep track of. I also struggle with running games with high level NPC festooned with magic. I get *very* little prep time and at about 10th level seem to spend all my time just reading up on the items.
If if everyone is having trouble keeping track of items, I don't think you have to get rid of 95% of them. More like 50% or less. There are a number of things you could do to ease up on the bookkeepping:
Set a limit on how many items each PC can carry. Maybe no more than 2 or 3 potions. You could ignore body slots and set a limit of 2 or 3 "misc" items. Same thing with Wands and such.
You could also fold more powers into a smaller number of items carried by each PC. It might be easier for folks to remember that their magic sword also does "some buff" 3x Day than to remember to look for a potion on the back of their chaaracter sheet.
Maybe you could come up with a series of "unlockable power-ups" for the players to find that they can use on the equipment they already have. As they go up in level, their items can do a bit more, without having to track more items.
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Apparently 4e is going to cut back the christmas tree approach to magic items (just a few baubles; rather than fairy lights, baubles, tinsel and a fairy). That's what's being said by WotC anyway, who knows...?
...And that is a legitimate change that could have a lot of benefits if done correctly. I know at Epic levels the "Christmas tree effect" is often more like the "Christmas redwood effect".
As to whether its well done or not, we'll have to wait and see. I know they've spoken about eliminating stat boosters (Cloak of Cha, etc) as well as some of the traditional items (ring of protection) but then they've turned around and mentioned things like boots of levitation (I think) so we'll really have to see what the final product actually turns out to be..
Could the OP clarify what exactly about the 3.X items bother him? Is it the stat boosters/constant effects or the "use X spell three times per day" items?
EDIT: Checked the article, they mentioned swords, rope of climbing, slippers of spider climb, and boots of levitation.
Could the OP clarify what exactly about the 3.X items bother him? Is it the stat boosters/constant effects or the "use X spell three times per day" items?
The OP stated that it's "the overwhelming number that players fail to keep track of."
So my guess is that it's probably the potions and other one-shots or charged items that players with gold can easily acquire, especially at high level. How much of a problem this is will depend on the group. Some folks save all their gold for big ticket items, and others want to stock up on two-dozen buffs every time they hit a town.
So maybe the players are forgetting to use the items they buy and then complaining after the battle. "I forgot to use my thingy!" Or quaffing buffs and then forgetting to adjust their stats "oh wait, my AC is actually 25, so that guy didn't hit, so I've got uh, 8 more hit points..." If you're forgetting to calculate the effects of contstant use items, that would be annoying too.
If you place some limits on the number of items folks can carry around, that would ease up on the bookkeepping. As an offset, you could be more flexible on body slots or make it easier to add powers to items you already have.
If you use some kind of computer based character sheet, all of the effects of your "always on" items can be automatically calculated.
Apparently 4e is going to cut back the christmas tree approach to magic items (just a few baubles; rather than fairy lights, baubles, tinsel and a fairy). That's what's being said by WotC anyway, who knows...?
I think they hope that the "area effect ally buff" powers of some of the new classes or class abilities will offset the need for the number of items in 3.x.
I've seen stuff along the lines of trying to remove the "resource management" aspect of the game, as in trying not to use up too many buffs in the early battles so you don't come up short during the "boss fight."
But I've pretty much given up on trying to figure out what 4e will be like, it's too hard to keep track of what's going on, especially since the WotC site seems to be the least well ogranized online information source.
I'm not going to make up my mind until my local Borders or Barnes and Noble has a copy of the new books. Then I'll sit down with a mocha and read it until I figure out if I like 4e.
Dude, you're a madman! How do you find time to convert everything? I guess as the DM, you can fudge the active points a bit, but then the PCs might get stomped. I tried to play a wizard in a Birthright campaign that was converted to Fantasy Hero, and it was a pain. Spellcasting systems doesn't translate into Hero very well, in my opinion.Um - so what brings you here? Are you converting the Paizo stuff to another system?I am currently running Burnt Offerings with Fantasy Hero.
It depends on how you set up the powers. You can almost create a D&D style wizard in HERO, with a Variable Power Pool and the appropriate limitations. However, since HERO powers are differentiated by Active Point cost instead of "spell level," the set spell slots don't translate. A HERO wizard is more like a D&D wizard using the optional spell points system in the SRD.
My take on rarer magic items
Just get rid of most, including those who just increase a stat. Keep special cases like the mirror of opposition or a bag of holding.
Because you don't want to change all those monsters in all the published adventures (if you use them), just take their items - BUT KEEP THE BONUSES. They have an inherent +2 strength instead of gauntlets of ogre power and so on.
Now for the Player Characters
Without their equipment, they're as useless as Batman without his. So we need to compensate for this. There's several ways to do that, and you can use several or even all:
- More generous ability score generation method:
So you use 4d6 drop lowest normally? Now use 5d6 drop lowest, let them roll 9 times and keep the best of or something like that.
You use point buy with 28 points? Now give them 35 or even 40 points.
- Stronger races:
Midnight does this. All races get more generous ability boosts (elves might have +4dex +2int +2cha -2con, or just +2dex, +2int, or something), and some powerful internal abilities right from the start.
- Use Gestalt rules:
Gestalt rules
Gestalt characters have two classes per level, and get the abilities of both (or the best of both, in case of HD, BAB, Saves, and so on).
- Faster progression for feats and such:
Maybe give them a feat every odd and ability increase every even level.
Maybe add some generic feats like "+1 to saves" or remove the "take only once" restriction from feats like lightning reflexes
- Use Heroic Paths:
Another useful idea from Midnight: In addition to race and class benefits, every character has a Heroic Path he follows that grants him one ability per level. The abilities are thematically bound together and can be spell-like abilities, bonuses to certain ability scores or other game stats, and the like. For example, an Ironborn character might get one or two bonus HP per round from 1st level on, later get endurance as a bonus feat, DR/-, fort save bonuses and the ability to shrug off effects like fatigue, slow, and so on.
- Introduce Talent trees:
You might know them from d20 Modern, and a variation thereof can be useful to offset those areas you cannot as easily achieve without magic.
For exmple, there might be talents that grant you save bonuses, or the ability to overcome Damage reduction.
Other changes
Some abilities will suddenly a lot more powerful than before, especially monster abilities that need magic weapons to counter.
In order to keep things fair, you might want to simplify those or do away with them altogether.
For example, some forms of damage reduction will count for a lot more all of a sudden (especially since the damage output might not be what it was with magic items). So you get rid of some forms, turn others into DR/- with lower numbers, or offer options to overcome them some other way, like new spells, or new talents/feats/class features.
It might take a bit of work, but I think it's less than many would think, especially if you're willing to "play dirty" (not taking away magic items from premade NPCs only to change their stats according to you new rules).
Another thing is that treasure will be less important now. You'll need to offer different incentives now.
I like your line of thinking - and yes I am more than happy to play dirty....
More generous ability score generation method:
So you use 4d6 drop lowest normally? Now use 5d6 drop lowest, let them roll 9 times and keep the best of or something like that.
You use point buy with 28 points? Now give them 35 or even 40 points.
5d6 drop the lowest and roll 9 times is probably closer to a 50 point buy.
It depends on how you set up the powers. You can almost create a D&D style wizard in HERO, with a Variable Power Pool and the appropriate limitations. However, since HERO powers are differentiated by Active Point cost instead of "spell level," the set spell slots don't translate. A HERO wizard is more like a D&D wizard using the optional spell points system in the SRD.
It's been years, so I forget exactly how I set up my wizard for HERO. I vaguely remember having multiple slots in an EC. I can't remember if I bothered with a variable pool or if that was even allowed in the campaign (since we were trying to stick to D&D style with spellbooks and avoid the "magical gadgeteer")
The problem with a variable power pool is that you can't get much power from the number of points availble to a low powered (non-super) HERO character. It's especially hard to create multiple powers with lasting effects. A mid-level D&D wizard can easily have a few protective spells running and still fire off an attack or two. That's hard to do with a varible pool.
I ended up giving myself flight, a big force field and some other protections and did a lot of move-by attacks. The rest of my "spells" included a few divinations and an indirect RKA.
It depends on how you set up the powers. You can almost create a D&D style wizard in HERO, with a Variable Power Pool and the appropriate limitations. However, since HERO powers are differentiated by Active Point cost instead of "spell level," the set spell slots don't translate. A HERO wizard is more like a D&D wizard using the optional spell points system in the SRD.It's been years, so I forget exactly how I set up my wizard for HERO. I vaguely remember having multiple slots in an EC. I can't remember if I bothered with a variable pool or if that was even allowed in the campaign (since we were trying to stick to D&D style with spellbooks and avoid the "magical gadgeteer")
The problem with a variable power pool is that you can't get much power from the number of points availble to a low powered (non-super) HERO character. It's especially hard to create multiple powers with lasting effects. A mid-level D&D wizard can easily have a few protective spells running and still fire off an attack or two. That's hard to do with a varible pool.
I ended up giving myself flight, a big force field and some other protections and did a lot of move-by attacks. The rest of my "spells" included a few divinations and an indirect RKA.
That's where creative use of Control Cost (Only change by studying spellbook [-1/2], Only spells in spellbook [-1/2]) and spell limitations come in. For example, a mage with a 20 point Magic VPP might have the following spells:
Clairsentinence (Normal Sight; 1/2 DCV [Throughout, -1/2], ET: 1 Turn [-1], OAF Scrying Bowl [-1], Gestures [-1/4], Incantation [-1/4], x2 END [-1/2], Requires KS: Spells Roll [-1/2], Side Effects [2d6 Flash, -1]) Real Cost 3, 4 END
8" Flight (1/2 END [+1/2], 1/2 DCV [-1/4], Full Phase Action [-1/4], OAF Fan of Feathers [Only needed to activate, -1/2], Gestures [-1/4], Incantation [-1/4], Requires KS: Spells Roll [-1/2], Side Effects [2d6 Running Drain, -1]) Real Cost 5, 1 END
Force Field (8rPD, 8rED; 1/2 END [+1/4], 1/2 DCV [-1/4], Full Phase Action [-1/4], OAF Wood Figurine [Only needed to activate, -1/2], Gestures [-1/4], Incantation [-1/4], Requires KS: Spells Roll [-1/2], Side Effects [1d6 PD + 1d6 ED Drain, -1]) Real Cost 5, 1 END
1d6+1 RKA [fire] (OAF Copper Arrow [-1], Gestures [-1/4], Incantation [-1/4], Requires KS: Spells Roll [-1/2]) Real Cost 7, 2 END
If you use the Charges limitation (Continuing Charges for duration spells), you can get even closer to the D&D feel and lower the Real Costs even more.
you what?? Sounds like a lot of numbers for a small selection of spells.
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Um - so what brings you here? Are you converting the Paizo stuff to another system?I am currently running Burnt Offerings with Fantasy Hero.
Don't play D&D? Are you some kinda heretic? I bet you jaywalk and spit on the sidewalk.
Seriously, though....it's important to point out that Pathfinder has utility to users of other systems. I used to do a bit of Dungeon Magazine converting to my system of choice Palladium, and it's phenomenal to me that others do that too.
Tell you what, I think you should do a product review on the Pathfinder books from a "converting to Fantasy Hero" angle.
It's an important angle to get out there--that of utility of Pathfinder books to system users other than 3.5.
Here's what I've tried, with a remarkable degree of success:
1. Remove all "magic item stores" and random magic items as part of treasure. (I'd also refer to KaeYoss' post above for what to do with NPCs'/monsters' bonuses; that was a great suggestion that eliminates a lot of work when running prewritten adventures).
2. Characters pay full xp value for all magic items retained (as if they had created them), so that even when they find an item, it's questionable whether they'll want to keep it.
3. Remove restrictions on multiple abilities for a single item. The "slots" model assumes festooning, which no longer will be the case. Also, each item now has the potential to be like a minor artifact; an "elf-ring" with several abilities is far cooler than a ring of invisibility. Most characters will eventually end up with one "signature item" instead of dozens of generic ones. As an added bonus, you can retain item creation feats and use them throughout the course of your career to simulate "items of legacy" (or whatever that book was).
4. Use action points/hero points; these count for a lot of items, especially in the hands of physical combat-oriented classes, and don't necessitate talent trees, etc. if you don't feel like converting them.
5. Allow D20 Modern classes, if you like talent trees and want to use them.
Obviously monsters that require magic to hit them are an issue, but I could just ignore that defensive capability.
Not so fast, Host. One of the most memorable encounters I got to play in was a low-level encounter with a were-rat. The whole party only had a single silvered dagger to its name and a lot of the fight was an exciting kind of desperation and tactics as each character did everything he could to help that one fighter with the dagger strike the ratman.
I suspect you'd have to be particularly stingy to have a party with no magic weapons by the time they're facing the kind of threats you're talking about. Like that desperate fight with the wererat, I think your encounters will actually benefit from a lack of magic weapons.
The real trick in my mind is in keeping your PCs' armor classes up to snuff without a profusion of magic armors. At the moment, I'm considering giving my PCs a defense bonus equal to their attack bonus, but I've no playtesting to let me know how that would shape up.
The real trick in my mind is in keeping your PCs' armor classes up to snuff without a profusion of magic armors. At the moment, I'm considering giving my PCs a defense bonus equal to their attack bonus, but I've no playtesting to let me know how that would shape up.
Even more than armor class, the system is balanced to assume magic items (or continual use of buff spells and immediate retreat as soon as they run out) to get saving throws high enough to be viable.
I've recently seen a 3-harpy and a 4-medusa encounter in modules. You have to find every single encounter like this and tone it way, way down if you don't have stat-boost and save-backing items by the mid-levels.
The save against a wizard's top level spell goes up 1 per 2 levels. Most characters' saves don't, and this asymmetry is normally patched up with items. If you don't want the stat- and save-boost items (and I hate those with a particular passion) you need to do something else to compensate, or by the middle levels spellcasters will cut down members of other classes like wheat before the scythe.
Mary
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One way of dealing with the 'fighting monsters requires magic' is to use more humanoid opponents. Enemy kingdoms, and rival adventures, mercenaries, and the like. Make them interesting by the use of different feat selections and fighting styles. Used advanced HD animals instead of magical beasts and the like.
Even more than armor class, the system is balanced to assume magic items (or continual use of buff spells and immediate retreat as soon as they run out) to get saving throws high enough to be viable.
Yikes, I hadn't even considered saving throw assumptions.
As for Iron Kingdoms, I'm not so keen on replacing magic items with superpowers.
you what?? Sounds like a lot of numbers for a small selection of spells.
HERO is a point-based system instead of a level-based system. Also, everything is individually designed; every spell can have a unique combination of game effects, energy type, advantages, and limitations. The selection I gave above was from a starting character I had built.
Class balance would be seriously hosed, and the advantage is totally monsters.
I'm convinced that this can be avoided with a little bit of forethought. Just some tweaks to the more problematic rules and you're fine. All you need is a bit of DM experience so you know which encounters will bore the characters, which will challenge them, and which will kill them.
And after the initial shock, the players (who will have to think more often during combats) will probably enjoy themselves immensely.
4th edition is supposed to reduce the dependence on magic items a lot.
You don't have to turn to another game to play fantasy without mountains of magic items, though.
5d6 drop the lowest and roll 9 times is probably closer to a 50 point buy.
It was just a bunch of suggestions. There are countless ways to generate ability scores.
My campaigns usually feature magic items few and far between. I've never had to artifically inflate the characters' bonuses or give any additional benefits to compensate for the lack of magic. Otherwise, you're exchanging magical trinkets for stat bonuses, which defeats the point.
My campaigns are closer to the European dark ages - pitting the heroes against the likes of barbarians, humanoids, and the occassional undead monster. Players become frustrated if they have to fight creatures that require magic weapons to hit, and they don't have the tools necessary to succeed. So, the key is to create challenging adventures where the heroes aren't likely to be overwhelmed or to become frustrated.
Class balance would be seriously hosed, and the advantage is totally monsters.
Perhaps the solution is to keep the level of magic, but make each magic item significant. Even a healing potion can be significant if you describe it well enough.
When they find a healing potion on the hobgoblin they just killed, describe it to match what a hobgoblin adept would brew. When they go shopping for a magic wand, have the "salesman" pitch it with its interesting backstory.
That might help overcome players taking for granted the magic items they're acumulating.
My campaigns usually feature magic items few and far between. I've never had to artifically inflate the characters' bonuses or give any additional benefits to compensate for the lack of magic. Otherwise, you're exchanging magical trinkets for stat bonuses, which defeats the point.
Not quite. It's about keeping the general power level (you like) but letting the characters be the source of that power, and maybe reducing the paperwork.
My campaigns are closer to the European dark ages - pitting the heroes against the likes of barbarians, humanoids, and the occassional undead monster. Players become frustrated if they have to fight creatures that require magic weapons to hit, and they don't have the tools necessary to succeed. So, the key is to create challenging adventures where the heroes aren't likely to be overwhelmed or to become frustrated.
I more fantastical campaign with demons and medusae and hydras, and squid-headed psymonsters can be done without frustrating or overwhelming the character, and many people want that sort of campaign. I'm not saying that your style of play is wrong (few of them really are), but it's not for everyone.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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My campaigns usually feature magic items few and far between. I've never had to artifically inflate the characters' bonuses or give any additional benefits to compensate for the lack of magic. Otherwise, you're exchanging magical trinkets for stat bonuses, which defeats the point.Not quite. It's about keeping the general power level (you like) but letting the characters be the source of that power, and maybe reducing the paperwork.
I more fantastical campaign with demons and medusae and hydras, and squid-headed psymonsters can be done without frustrating or overwhelming the character, and many people want that sort of campaign. I'm not saying that your style of play is wrong (few of them really are), but it's not for everyone.
My campaigns are closer to the European dark ages - pitting the heroes against the likes of barbarians, humanoids, and the occassional undead monster. Players become frustrated if they have to fight creatures that require magic weapons to hit, and they don't have the tools necessary to succeed. So, the key is to create challenging adventures where the heroes aren't likely to be overwhelmed or to become frustrated.
Great points.
In my low magic home brew, silver weapons are considered the equivalent of magic weapons for beating DR/Magic when fighting creatures.
This simple substitution has worked very well for us. Every PC ends up paying for an alchemical silver weapon, and the party always has a chance to defeat any kind of monster. It may seem like a simplistic approach, but it works surprisingly well as long as the DM keeps this in mind when designing tactics for the bad guys.