(*sits back, folds hands behind head, smiles, and feels justified after having been criticized by FR fans who said complaints about the death of Greyhawk were just angry grognardism.*)
Awe Bubba have a heart!
I sympathize with the Forgotten Realms fans because I can understand the disapointment and hurt concerning unwanted changes to your game world. I am Greyhawk fan myself. Your world, nor mine, deserves the unnecessary changes, attention, and lack of respect, provided by WOTC. It is completely understandable how many of you must feel as a result of seeing the Forgotten Realms world turned upside down and becoming something you did not familiarize yourself with over the years. The very same thing has happened to Greyhawk and the players who have enjoyed that setting for the past three decades. I would like to hope that we can see that both game worlds have been treated with far less respect by WOTC then they deserve. It disheartens me (I'm not joking either), that some bode ill will and a good riddance approach to Greyhawk. I wish no such feelings towards the Forgotten Realms, and like it or not, in a sense, we now belong to the same family.
I understand your disapointment and resentment, it's justified. Just as are those who support Greyhawk. Were in this together! I'd like to see us support one another and not the alternative.
Awe Bubba have a heart!
Well, if you're going to get all serious on me then I have to agree. I just had to get that one last dig in before welcoming FR fans to the "I hate WotC" club. No harm was intended.
P.S. Don't you ever sleep, Eileen? Sheesh!
To my knowledge, they are not the same creature.The Greeks had the Furies who punished mortals who thwarted the gods, tearing them to pieces or otherwise tormenting them. I believe these are the Erinyes of D&D-dom. The succubus was an entirely different creature, a fiend who inspired lust in mortals, etc., and acquired the portfolio of soul-stealing somewhere along the way. This type of creature goes back to the most ancient records we have (cuniform tablets). So, actually, switching the respective home camps of the Erinyes and the Succubi would actually make sense, mythologically speaking in light of the new D&D cosmology. But did they just get of the Erinyes rather than swapping them?
The Greeks didn't have Furies. They had Erinyes. Furies is the Roman equivalent. Those were the chicks who retaliated against everyone who broke the natural laws. In their free time, they hang out in Tartarus to torture the souls of the damned.
In D&D, retribution and revenge are usually LN or LE, tormenting the damned in some hell is devils' work. They are right at home in Baator.
Succubi, on the other hand, debuted in medieval times, where they were said to seduce men in their sleep, especially friars or other clerics, and took their semen. This semen was given to the Incubi, who used it to seduce single women in their sleep and impregnated them.
Succubi were used to explain wet dreams, and Incubi to explain non-married women getting pregnant.
Succubus is an old word for strumpet, and means "to lie below". Incubus, of course, means "to lie on top". Very old-fashioned, those medieval demons.
As far as I know, 4e succubi will be devils, and erinyes are right out of the game. Because they're "too similar". (For me, that means: "we don't have the imagination to make them different. This is easier. Plus, we had to invalidate as much old D&D background story as possible!)
Well, the Realms as I know them are dead. Time to have a wake.
I had that wake long before. I have known for some time that the Realms are going down the loo.
So, what, are they high? Was this history written by ADD 13-year-olds?
[edit: no offense to any ADD teens that may be reading this. :)]
I like to compare their stories to that crap you see on really bad soap operas. Actually, It's even worse than that. It's as bad as those court shows and what not. Where the stories are so bad you have to think that they write them that way on purpose. Same goes for the actors. They can't be that bad without actually going for it.
You know, I have not played in the Realms for a long while, but there is a solution to your problem :
Don't buy 4e, don't buy the Realms 4e ... let it die.
When they become short on cash, they will reconsider.
That's what I will do.
There is a small chance yet that I will buy the 4e core rules to use with Pathfinder if that changes 4e (but at the moment, I actually lean more towards not using Pathfinder any more unless it's 3.5, or we get very good conversion material for it, and very fast - before I hold that copy in my hands. Which is some time, as shipping takes a while to Germany)
But I will definetly buy not a single FR product any more (I used to buy *everything*, including the novels.) I will not buy into any new campaign setting. And I will especially not buy any miniatures (I used to buy 3 cases - 36 boosters - per set and get singles until I have the complete set.
With the minis, I save about €1200 a year, what with the cases, the singles to top up, and the Icons.
Another 100-200 for all the novels.
And a couple 100 for all the sourcebooks (I used to get a lot of their stuff)
That means a lot of cash freed up for other stuff, like Pathfinder
And call me a bastard, but I hope they will reap the reward for their work: Since the work stinks in my opinion, I hope that the new 4e fr will tank big time. I hope that they have pissed off enough old fans so much that they will never come back, only to realize that they won't get enough new people to buy into their new campaign setting (they keep calling forgotten realms for some reason).
Awe Bubba have a heart!Well, if you're going to get all serious on me then I have to agree. I just had to get that one last dig in before welcoming FR fans to the "I hate WotC" club. No harm was intended.
P.S. Don't you ever sleep, Eileen? Sheesh!
My responsibilities at the temple permit me little time for sleep. Many lost souls are out there which must be touched by the presence of my Goddess. I pray that their futures are blessed with goodness yet challenging. For those whose fate is less than kind, I pray they receive the strength to rise above. For those who earn a fate so horrible I cannot express the words to describe it, may they learn from the mistakes they have made.
Actually, I work a 12+ hour shift from 3:00 p.m. to 3:30 a.m., then it takes time for me to get sleepy. Yea, I pretty much stay up all night, even on my days off. Of coarse I know you meant no harm, despite the computer barrier, I know you better than that. You were kinda humerous actually (I did smile). But of coarse this is a serious matter and should be handled as such. I know a great paladin such as yourself surely sees the injustice before us. By the way is Heironeous your chosen faith, or someone else?
I just had to get that one last dig in before welcoming FR fans to the "I hate WotC" club.
You say that I wasn't welcome before now? What they did to the fr is what drove me to the "I hate wotc" club weeks ago.
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If I happened to be a fan of the Realms, yeah I'm pretty sure the 4e changes would have me gnashing my teeth. As a Dragonlance fan I know what it's like to go through massive changes and silly retcons (kudos to MWP for getting it back on track though).
But, as a gamer who hasn't bought a FR product since the 2nd Edition box set, I have to admit that these new Realms have me intrigued enough that I'll be checking it out.
Also, isn't the new FR going to be emerging from all this big shake up instead of descending into it? That could be a very good thing.
The new Dragonlance is a very good setting now that it is emerging from all of the crap. In fact, I like the Age of Mortals more than I liked the original WotL era (which surprises me). It allowed them to trim away a lot of garbage and get back on focus. The ride there was horrible, but the end result has been amazing.
This jump in FR could provide the same benefit but without having to suffer through the crap that we DL fans did.
If I happened to be a fan of the Realms, yeah I'm pretty sure the 4e changes would have me gnashing my teeth. As a Dragonlance fan I know what it's like to go through massive changes and silly retcons (kudos to MWP for getting it back on track though).
But, as a gamer who hasn't bought a FR product since the 2nd Edition box set, I have to admit that these new Realms have me intrigued enough that I'll be checking it out.
Also, isn't the new FR going to be emerging from all this big shake up instead of descending into it? That could be a very good thing.
The new Dragonlance is a very good setting now that it is emerging from all of the crap. In fact, I like the Age of Mortals more than I liked the original WotL era (which surprises me). It allowed them to trim away a lot of garbage and get back on focus. The ride there was horrible, but the end result has been amazing.
This jump in FR could provide the same benefit but without having to suffer through the crap that we DL fans did.
The Dragonlance analogy has occurred to me often in this whole mess. I understand what you are saying, but being both a Dragonlance fan and a Forgotten Realms fan, I really didn't want to go through this twice.
Also as a counterpoint I would offer that while I know many people enjoyed the "Saga" era of Dragonlance, a lot of old timers left the setting at that point as well. I know I did, not because I thought it would be horrible, but because it was too different from what I had known.
The Fifth Age, as it stands now, is a very interesting game setting, and I'm rushing frantically to get the rest of the books before they aren't available any more, but the current Fifth Age didn't come about until a lot of designers and authors worked really hard to try and sift through what worked and what didn't and to patch holes in the setting.
Which means that perhaps years from now, I'll look at the new, emerging Forgotten Realms and think, "okay, I can live with this," but right now I'm still dealing with the whole Dragons of Summer Flame feeling.
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Which means that perhaps years from now, I'll look at the new, emerging Forgotten Realms and think, "okay, I can live with this," but right now I'm...
One thing I'm curious about (and I admit I haven't been following FR development at all), is the jump ahead going to be a Dragons of Summer Flame to crappy Saga, or is it a jump from Summer Flame to current Age of Mortals.
Is it possible that the 100 yearish leap could allow them to bypass the same trap the DL fell into, and just cut to some god stuff?
One thing I'm curious about (and I admit I haven't been following FR development at all), is the jump ahead going to be a Dragons of Summer Flame to crappy Saga, or is it a jump from Summer Flame to current Age of Mortals.
Is it possible that the 100 yearish leap could allow them to bypass the same trap the DL fell into, and just cut to some god stuff?
Here is another question for you (and thanks for playing along). You say that, as a non FR fan, these changes interest you enough to potentially entice you to pick up some Realms books. Obviously this is part of what they are going for.
On the other hand, do these changes sound like something that will make you a 20 year dedicated fan of the setting?
I guess my point is that there is a difference between generating short term buzz that might get some extra sales, and building a setting that has a dedicated fan base. I realize the the Realms don't appeal to everyone, but then again, neither does Dragonlance, Greyhawk, Mystara, Ravenloft, etc.
Does stripping out some of the things that people who aren't fans don't like really help the setting in the long run, if some of those same things are endearing qualities to other players and fans?
I don't know the answer to this, I'm just kind of curious to see other perspectives. For the record, I've assumed this was going to happen since the prologue to the Orc King came out, so I'm not really upset by this, I know its the state of things in 4 edition, even if I'm not thrilled with the changes.
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On the other hand, do these changes sound like something that will make you a 20 year dedicated fan of the setting?
Speaking as someone who is not a hardcore Realms fan, one of my main gripes with it has always been the fact that the Realms were too fluid, too many cooks constantly stirring the pot. I felt like if I wanted to know what was going on in the Realms I would have to be constantly buying novels, updates, etc. And then what I knew could be changed on a whim by any given author.
So to answer your question, hearing that WotC blew up the Realms is not more likely to make me look into it as it merely reinforces the opinion I had about the Realms x10. If they did it once (or thrice), they can do it again.
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On the other hand, do these changes sound like something that will make you a 20 year dedicated fan of the setting?
I'm not sure I can give a true answer to that yet. There are still too many unknowns. Even if I could though, I'm likely an exception and not the rule.
First, lets say I like 4e enough to actually stick with it and not revert back to my beloved 2nd Edition. Then, if that is the case and the 4e Realms happens to be a book that I enjoy then yes, it will probably generate long term interest from me.
Why?
Because in all honesty, I'm tired of converting material. I've been doing it for years now. Converting stuff to AD&D, converting stuff to C&C. I'm getting wore out doing it and would really, really love being able to buy a product and use it "as is" for the system it was actually created for.
That is probably why I am holing out hope that 4e will be something I enjoy. Then maybe I can make use of a system without the constant need to convert.
Granted, my reasoning is atypical so not very helpful in the overall scheme of things.
I'm not sure I can give a true answer to that yet. There are still too many unknowns. Even if I could though, I'm likely an exception and not the rule.
First, lets say I like 4e enough to actually stick with it and not revert back to my beloved 2nd Edition. Then, if that is the case and the 4e Realms happens to be a book that I enjoy then yes, it will probably generate long term interest from me.
Why?
Because in all honesty, I'm tired of converting material. I've been doing it for years now. Converting stuff to AD&D, converting stuff to C&C. I'm getting wore out doing it and would really, really love being able to buy a product and use it "as is" for the system it was actually created for.
That is probably why I am holing out hope that 4e will be something I enjoy. Then maybe I can make use of a system without the constant need to convert.
Granted, my reasoning is atypical so not very helpful in the overall scheme of things.
Fair enough, I appreciate the answer. As to your question about if this will be "Fifth Age" or "Saga" for the Realms, I guess that depends on how much the setting has to radically change not just because of the time jump, but to accommodate a new rules system. Right now, its not looking good, but it will be interesting.
Speaking as someone who is not a hardcore Realms fan, one of my main gripes with it has always been the fact that the Realms were too fluid, too many cooks constantly stirring the pot. I felt like if I wanted to know what was going on in the Realms I would have to be constantly buying novels, updates, etc. And then what I knew could be changed on a whim by any given author.So to answer your question, hearing that WotC blew up the Realms is not more likely to make me look into it as it merely reinforces the opinion I had about the Realms x10. If they did it once (or thrice), they can do it again.
I suspect there may be a lot of people that think the same way, but time will tell. I have said for a while that I thought that the "heavy lifting" of world building was unfairly and unwisely put on the novels instead of the sourcebooks.
Cormyr had a major war, lost its king, got a new Royal Magician, lost a whole city in a "Magical Nuke" incident, and they only get the quick blurb in the FRCS, while Waterdeep (which I love), has virtually nothing going on since 2nd edition, and gets a hardcover that spends half of its time making PrCs for things that don't really need PrCs.
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Fair enough, I appreciate the answer. As to your question about if this will be "Fifth Age" or "Saga" for the Realms, I guess that depends on how much the setting has to radically change not just because of the time jump, but to accommodate a new rules system. Right now, its not looking good, but it will be interesting.
For the long time FR fans, I hope it does end up being a "5th Age" for you guys.
Coming to the Realms without any sort of long-term history with the setting, it just needs to be a good setting for me. Right now I'm hoping to find something I like in either the new Realms or Golarian (if Paizo goes 4e). If I do end up sticking with 4e, I'll be looking for a good 4e setting to draw me in.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I suspect there may be a lot of people that think the same way, but time will tell. I have said for a while that I thought that the "heavy lifting" of world building was unfairly and unwisely put on the novels instead of the sourcebooks.
Cormyr had a major war, lost its king, got a new Royal Magician, lost a whole city in a "Magical Nuke" incident, and they only get the quick blurb in the FRCS, while Waterdeep (which I love), has virtually nothing going on since 2nd edition, and gets a hardcover that spends half of its time making PrCs for things that don't really need PrCs.
To use Dragonalnce as an example, the War of souls (which I wasn't keen on) and the Taladas trillogy (which I enjoyed) did the 'heavy lifting' of blowing up the world. The Age of Mortals hardcover, Races and Dragons of Krynn, and the trilogy of modules did the 'heavy lifting' of bringing us the mechanics. But there's been a, what, 3-4 year breathing space before we had a DLSE?
In the Realms we had since 3.x came out (off the top of my head)
Now rather than having years of sourcebooks to reflect these changes, we've a RSE, a 100 year jump in the timeline, and yet some things survived that make no sense.
Speaking as someone who is not a hardcore Realms fan, one of my main gripes with it has always been the fact that the Realms were too fluid, too many cooks constantly stirring the pot. I felt like if I wanted to know what was going on in the Realms I would have to be constantly buying novels, updates, etc. And then what I knew could be changed on a whim by any given author.
The problem is that it is getting worse. The last couple of years saw an acceleration of events, and after the announcement of 4e, it just went crazy. It's like waking up one morning and have gravity push people away, the sky to be green, and a 4th spatial dimension to appear.
Here is another question for you (and thanks for playing along). You say that, as a non FR fan, these changes interest you enough to potentially entice you to pick up some Realms books. Obviously this is part of what they are going for.On the other hand, do these changes sound like something that will make you a 20 year dedicated fan of the setting?
I personally think that it's always a bad idea to drive actual old customers away (with insults and condescending behaviour no less) to get potential new customers. You knew what you had with the old guys, but you don't know what you'll have with the new.
I think you should try to keep the old as well as get the new. What I'm absolutely convinced of is that you shouldn't burn bridges. And wizards has blown up an Irespan here.
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I personally think that it's always a bad idea to drive actual old customers away (with insults and condescending behaviour no less) to get potential new customers. You knew what you had with the old guys, but you don't know what you'll have with the new.
It happens with regularity in D&D though, these shakeups. While they do cause points of contention, the fandom level generally remains the same.
Greyhawk had From the Ashes.
Dragonlance had the Summer of Chaos, the Saga edition, Alien friggin' dragons and a world that was STOLE, yeah STOLE (the whole damn planet) by a goddess! Ghosts that had nowhere to go so were guzzling down magic like soda pop....I would have killed for a spell plague and a 100yr fast forward! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! My precious DL.... ;D
Anyways, these sort of shake ups are nothing new to our beloved settings and while they lose some customers behind them, the fandom generally remains constant.
You have folks that play Greyhawk pre-wars and you have ones that play post wars. Quite a few pre-war fans still buy newer stuff though because it has info for their favorite setting.
You have folks that play WotL era Dragonlance and you have folks that play AoM era. Both continue to buy supplements though because they have information on their favored setting.
I reckon FR will continue on in the same manner. Heck I know guys that still play pre- the whole avatar thingy (time of troubles?)in FR, but they still have bought all the 3e FR supplements.
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I personally think that it's always a bad idea to drive actual old customers away (with insults and condescending behaviour no less) to get potential new customers. You knew what you had with the old guys, but you don't know what you'll have with the new.It happens with regularity in D&D though, these shakeups. While they do cause points of contention, the fandom level generally remains the same.
This is one reason that prior to Pathfinder I was solidly in Kenzer's corner with their Kingdoms of Kalamar setting. Kenzer promised to add to their world detail wise but never to advance it time wise with their products.
They have kept their promise and thus kept my business.
The Greeks didn't have Furies. They had Erinyes. Furies is the Roman equivalent. Those were the chicks who retaliated against everyone who broke the natural laws. In their free time, they hang out in Tartarus to torture the souls of the damned.
The Romans did adopt vast swaths of Greek lore and rename it to suit. But I'll grant you the nit. It's been a while since I've read any of the Greek tragedies.
Succubi, on the other hand, debuted in medieval times, where they were said to seduce men in their sleep, especially friars or other clerics, and took their semen. This semen was given to the Incubi, who used it to seduce single women in their sleep and impregnated them.
I'll have to disagree with you here. The archetype is much, much older. It may well have become popularized in wester European culture during the medieval period (Satan--via Persia--was, after all), but it goes way, way back.
I reckon FR will continue on in the same manner. Heck I know guys that still play pre- the whole avatar thingy (time of troubles?)in FR, but they still have bought all the 3e FR supplements.
The problem I have here is that by all indications, 4e's fluff will be hardwired into its crunch. They're making it harder to change stuff. So for me, it gets to the point that I won't even bother. This also works very well with the resolve to no longer buy wizards of the cost products. The only exception to this might be the 4e core rules (if Paizo announces that they can work with 4e), but I'm not even sure about that.
This is one reason that prior to Pathfinder I was solidly in Kenzer's corner with their Kingdoms of Kalamar setting. Kenzer promised to add to their world detail wise but never to advance it time wise with their products.They have kept their promise and thus kept my business.
The advancing of the timeline isn't so bad. Things happening weren't so bad. In fact, I liked it. But it got way out of hand. That's what I really don't like: Global changes things happening on a weekly basis, time jumps of whole centuries, the disappearance of many nations, the wholesale slaughter of whole peoples (and of course, many of the NPCs one came to know and like won't have survived 100 years worth of time).
Oh, and one more thing I hate: Them messing with the setting big time because they decided that the new edition of the rules should be radically different, and that the setting should bow to the rules instead of the other way around.
The Romans did adopt vast swaths of Greek lore and rename it to suit. But I'll grant you the nit.
I was nitpicking mainly because we were actually talking about a monster that didn't just get its backstory from those myths (the erinyes being D&D's version of furies), but also the very name they are known by in D&D.
I'll have to disagree with you here. The archetype is much, much older. It may well have become popularized in wester European culture during the medieval period (Satan--via Persia--was, after all), but it goes way, way back.
I think so, too. I guess it was just some fine tuning of the concept, as well as the name.
I also think that they never had anything to do with the furies/erinyes of old. They're not their grand-grand-grand....-granddaughters or anything, they're a whole new animal. Fiend. Whatever. Also, they're not even close to each other in concept. Just because both are pretty doesn't mean they're the same.
But I guess if you think people can't handle power attack, you don't see much of a difference there.
Man they really blew the Realms to hell!! is Rich Baker on crack!lame Dragonborn country I did laugh out loud at that!This is going to TANK!HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH-All those suckers are gonna get fired!HAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAH!!!!!
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I really hate to see people loose their jobs, but the way they have treated the Realms and it's fans should merit some housecleaning. What buisness can you think of where you can redo your products to the point where they are unrecognizable and unappealing to your customers while insulting them at the same time and expect to keep your job?
I really hate to see people loose their jobs, but the way they have treated the Realms and it's fans should merit some housecleaning. What buisness can you think of where you can redo your products to the point where they are unrecognizable and unappealing to your customers while insulting them at the same time and expect to keep your job?
Exactly...I really believe 4e is gonna belly up and when that happens they will clean house and try to regroup, I don't really want people to lose their jobs but then again the insulting comments about how they've handle things so far...and severing the history of your customer base is just bad for the overall goal...The DDI will also fail because the money required to run that won't last and it will have far too many bugs...You go to the WOTC message boards there are some rather flaming threads of rage over the 4e Forgotten realms changes, some people are all for it and thats cool change is good, but the Spellplague that is so weak! A Dragonborn nation rises in 94 years please!that is just ridiculous, Thay rises thousands of feet from volcanic activity, that would kill alot of life, the landrise in the Shaar falls/caves-in wtf!And they completely swipe a post I had about flooding the Anauroch Desert...That is some lack of imagination going on over there...You reap what you sow.
Man they really blew the Realms to hell!! is Rich Baker on crack!lame Dragonborn country I did laugh out loud at that!This is going to TANK!HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH-All those suckers are gonna get fired!HAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAH!!!!!
Funny, my first thought was the entire staff was on coke. A lot of it. :)
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I might be in a minority of one but I'm looking forward to 4E Realms, I've collected the setting since that original Grey box (at at least my memory tells me that was the original) through all it's incarnations and intend to keep on doing so. I like the idea of a shake up now and again to keep things fresh.
"All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again."
Bit of a BSG quote here but one that nicecly applies to peoples reactions to the changeover. I've seen exactly the same same sackcloth wearing, teeth gnashing, hair pulling and wailing happen with every single change of D&D from advanced to 2nd, 3rd (won't mention 3.5 ;-)) and now 4th edition.
Then of course the books come out and everyone goes and buys them, except that diehard 5-10% that will burn in hell first
8-).
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying or demanding that people like or accept this change sight unseen, but I think it's reasonable to relax, take a deep breath and a step back and wait till we have some books to look at before crying it's the end of the world (or the realms at least).
YMMV but I hope that we can all agree that a rabid hatred sight unseen is a little OTT.
Okay . . . taking a breath here. I'm fine if someone likes the change. I've said that many times. I've said I may not be in the majority, and this may work fine for WOTC, but it doesn't serve my interests in the setting.
But here we are, once again, being told that if we don't like it or don't plan on converting, either we are reactionaries that are lying and will eventually, or that we are a small percentage of the overall host of gamers that is, by nature, fanatic, and therefore unreasonable.
Let's take this slowly . . . the setting has never, ever, jumped ahead 100 years and destroyed 50% or so of the nations that existed in the previous time frame. Never. For everyone that wants to cite the Time of Troubles, you know what actually happened during it?
Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul died, and were replaced by Cyric, and Mystra was replaced by Midnight and became NG instead of LN. What impact did this have on the setting? Almost nil. All the books and modules amounted to was an explanation for something that didn't need to be explained (assassins are all gone, and some spells changed levels). There was as much of a difference between 3.5 and 3rd edition as there was 1st and 2nd, but there was not Time of Troubles to explain why Haste didn't work the same way anymore.
The point was, there had never been an edition change, and TSR really overreacted by setting up this massive event to explain things that, from the "ground level" of the setting really didn't need to be explained. And in the end, while the actual Time of Troubles was a major event, its aftermath was fairly negligible. No cities were destroyed. No organizations went away. No important NPCs died. Other than Mystra and Cyric, the biggest long term thing added to the Realms were Dead Magic and Wild Magic zones.
I don't know why people have to constantly tell me my opinion isn't valid. I can see where some people would be interested in the new setting, and if some of the aspects that were being radically changed weren't things I was fond of, I probably would be interested in it more myself. Why can't we leave it at that?
I don't remark that people irrationally hold out hope for this edition because if they admitted their fears it might mean acknowledging that this might hasten the demise of our hobby in the form we know it today. Do I believe what I just wrote. On a bad day. Most of the time I think that we all have opinions, we need to let people like Paizo and WOTC know them since we are their customers, and leave it at that.
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Okay . . . taking a breath here. I'm fine if someone likes the change. I've said that many times. I've said I may not be in the majority, and this may work fine for WOTC, but it doesn't serve my interests in the setting.
But here we are, once again, being told that if we don't like it or don't plan on converting, either we are reactionaries that are lying and will eventually, or that we are a small percentage of the overall host of gamers that is, by nature, fanatic, and therefore unreasonable.
Woah I'm not saying your unreasonable, just that it seems to me that people are jumping the gun a bit. It's a bit like trying to judge the Mona Lisa by one eye rather than the whole portrait.
And please state your dislikes, outright hates or pet peeves to your hearts content, I would be the last person in the world to deny people the right to express themselves.
Let's take this slowly . . . the setting has never, ever, jumped ahead 100 years and destroyed 50% or so of the nations that existed in the previous time frame. Never. For everyone that wants to cite the Time of Troubles, you know what actually happened during it?
Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul died, and were replaced by Cyric, and Mystra was replaced by Midnight and became NG instead of LN. What impact did this have on the setting? Almost nil. All the books and modules amounted to was an explanation for something that didn't need to be explained (assassins are all gone, and some spells changed levels). There was as much of a difference between 3.5 and 3rd edition as there was 1st and 2nd, but there was not Time of Troubles to explain why Haste didn't work the same way anymore.
The point was, there had never been an edition change, and TSR really overreacted by setting up this massive event to explain things that, from the "ground level" of the setting really didn't need to be explained. And in the end, while the actual Time of Troubles was a major event, its aftermath was fairly negligible. No cities were destroyed. No organizations went away. No important NPCs died. Other than Mystra and Cyric, the biggest long term thing added to the Realms were Dead Magic and Wild Magic zones.
I agree. This is the biggest change I've yet seen in any D&D setting (not counting Dragonlance Saga **shudder**), I'm not saying it's good (or that you should) just that I'd rather read the whole book before slamming it. For example I'm not sure about the entire Dragonborn thing but I'll give it a chance first. I'll admit I do get bewildered by peoples absolute vehemence to the suggestion of change. Maybe that's just me though.
I don't know why people have to constantly tell me my opinion isn't valid. I can see where some people would be interested in the new setting, and if some of the aspects that were being radically changed weren't things I...
Your opinion is as valid as mine, Rich Baker's, Ed Greenwood or anyone else on this or any other board and I'll be interested to know what you or anyone else thinks of the final product. As it stands now I'm moderately optimistic but it could still go either way. I just see it as too early for the adamant viewpoints that have emerged, let alone the crazy board polarisations between for and against.
Later Days
Sorry, I probably overreacted, but I've had so many discussions over this and I've seen kind of dismissive comments before, and I probably jump a we bit too much at your comments. That having been said, I honestly don't think its too soon to have an opinion about the setting and if its for you. If you don't want to jump your campaigns 100 years into the future, I'm pretty sure you already have enough information.
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Sorry, I probably overreacted, but I've had so many discussions over this and I've seen kind of dismissive comments before, and I probably jump a we bit too much at your comments. That having been said, I honestly don't think its too soon to have an opinion about the setting and if its for you. If you don't want to jump your campaigns 100 years into the future, I'm pretty sure you already have enough information.
No worries, I understood where your coming from.
Heck if it is rubbish I can always crack open my old Spellbound box set 8-).
I'm hoping it's worthwhile but if it's not I can always use my 2nd and 3rd edition material with 4th edition rules, unless their rubbish too in which case 3.5 forever.
To be honest I'm hoping 4th edition is all they promise and more but if not there is still plenty of 3.5 stuff for me to stay with, although if it is Golarion 4th edition all the way!!
Yeah, I've been a big Forgotten Realms fan since the Old Grey Box came out 20 years ago. I even maintain(ed) a complete bibliography of all official Realms products and information.
But unfortunately, this is where I get off.
I suppose I should be gracious and wish WotC well with their new endeavor, but...well...
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Yeah, I've been a big Forgotten Realms fan since the Old Grey Box came out 20 years ago. I even maintain(ed) a complete bibliography of all official Realms products and information.
But unfortunately, this is where I get off.
I suppose I should be gracious and wish WotC well with their new endeavor, but...well...
You know that grey box set is still my favourite. Remember the cantrips?
I understand it's a change but as I said to the KnightErrantJr, why not wait till you can at least check out the finished product? I always swore that I would never play a d20 Star Wars but what do you know after my current Pathfinder game I'll be running the Dawn of Defiance game.
Please, please, please note I'm not saying you have to like it or even follow my advice and check out for that matter just making a statement of my opinion. YMMV of course.
Incidentally how up to date is your bibliography?
I understand it's a change but as I said to the KnightErrantJr, why not wait till you can at least check out the finished product?
I'm afraid the 100-year jump precludes any possibility of my liking the new Realms. I've collected almost all of the official Realms material over the years, and this jump makes it 99% useless. Most of the characters are dead, the recent history is now ancient (and therefore irrelevant) history. Politics and even geography has changed.
It's a new campaign setting, plain and simple. Retaining a few proper nouns isn't enough to make it the Realms to me.
If there had been no time jump, or even just a 10-year one like they did with the 2nd edition transition, I might have considered sticking with it. but I've just got too much time and money and too many memories invested in 14th-century Realms to make a switch now.
I realize everyone will jump in and say, "wait and see, this is WotC, they're too big to fail. Everyone will jump on board the new Realms." But this just has "New Coke" written all over it. I'll be interested to see if the Realms is still being published a year from now as a game setting.
Incidentally how up to date is your bibliography?
Up to the moment, more or less. I suppose all the Web articles I painstakingly linked to will be disappearing at some point.
What buisness can you think of where you can redo your products to the point where they are unrecognizable and unappealing to your customers while insulting them at the same time and expect to keep your job?
The Italian government :)
Woah I'm not saying your unreasonable, just that it seems to me that people are jumping the gun a bit. It's a bit like trying to judge the Mona Lisa by one eye rather than the whole portrait.
Actually, I never did like the Mona Lisa much, with any number of eyes...
It's quite easy: I liked none of the changes I heard of so far. Not a single one. It can be that it's all a big coincidence, we only heard about 1% of all the changes, the really important ones aren't revealed yet and all rock - but I really doubt it. It's far more likely that the trend will continue.
Combine that with their attitude towards their old fanbase, and I feel entirely justified in saying "No 4e realms for me" with the information I have so far.
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What buisness can you think of where you can redo your products to the point where they are unrecognizable and unappealing to your customers while insulting them at the same time and expect to keep your job?The Italian government :)
I don't know much about the Italian government, but it's kind of irrelevant to this discussion because it isn't a business. Some governments might work better if they were run as a business, but that's completely off topic.
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It's quite easy: I liked none of the changes I heard of so far. Not a single one. It can be that it's all a big coincidence, we only heard about 1% of all the changes, the really important ones aren't revealed yet and all rock - but I really doubt it. It's far more likely that the trend will continue.
Combine that with their attitude towards their old fanbase, and I feel entirely justified in saying "No 4e realms for me" with the information I have so far.
Agreed. I'm pretty big on reading Realms novels when I can find the time, and I have zero interest in reading any novels or using any supplements that are post-Spellplauge. I can't even bring myself to buy and read The Orc King, because I know that the info on the spellplauge in there will just anger me even more. I really hope Richard Baker and company get what's coming to them for forcing this rubbish on us.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Does anybody recall the hue and cry over MEGATRAVELLER / TRAVELLER: THE NEW ERA? The folks at GDW took a long-established campaign background with excessive detail and "blew it up" to make something fresh, exciting, and open to exploration. The old Third Emperium was gone, with one favored area still more-or-less untouched, and there were pockets of civilization spread among the remnants.
This feels a lot like that.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Does anybody recall the hue and cry over MEGATRAVELLER / TRAVELLER: THE NEW ERA? The folks at GDW took a long-established campaign background with excessive detail and "blew it up" to make something fresh, exciting, and open to exploration. The old Third Emperium was gone, with one favored area still more-or-less untouched, and there were pockets of civilization spread among the remnants.
This feels a lot like that.
Well I don't. I never played Traveller.
How about this, does anyone remember the frustration of the Expanded Universe Star Wars fans that Ep I-III invalidated so much of the EU? For those of us who like the world's 'fluff' that's how I feel. I'm watching for Halcyon Horn, a young Mara Jade, Senator Ben Ilbiss, anything. I got a (certainly nice looking) blue twi'lek.
The Succubus may well be based on "Adam's Other Wife" Lillit(h) from Jewish mythology.
Did somebody say my name?
Is it true that if you say Lilith 5 times at the stroke of Midnight while looking into a mirror...that cookies will appear?
It is possible. I have been known to make cookies in the middle of the night. ;)
I apparently missed the information on the changes to FR that everyone is so riled up about. Can someone please put up a link to the official post on this (wherever that may be).
Sean Mahoney
I apparently missed the information on the changes to FR that everyone is so riled up about. Can someone please put up a link to the official post on this (wherever that may be).
I get most of my info from ENworld.org. If you go there and skim the news page for the past 2-3 days you'll find most of the significant changes announced so far, with a link to the Dragon article (requires registration, but I think it's still free) that sets the new Realms timeline at 1479 DR.