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I feel that Pathfinder is superior to Dungeon....BUT....Dungeon was great and I especially miss the various articles and the 3 different adventures per issue. Pathfinder is different and great and Dungeon was different and great. One is seafood, one is steak to me. I love both but I have different cravings from time to time.
I miss my steak.
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Why did they get rid of Dungeon? I understand that print magazines don't make as much money anymore, but they seemed to have a pretty large following.
Also, I, too, miss Dungeon :(
Something about some new initiative to provide information to readers more readily, or something like that.
"Today the internet is where people go to get this kind of information," said Scott Rouse, Senior Brand Manager of Dungeons & Dragons®, Wizards of the Coast. "By moving to an online model we are using a delivery system that broadens our reach to fans around the world. Paizo has been a great partner to us over the last several years. We wish them well on their future endeavors."
I would have loved to see another Official DnD adventure path. By Paizo and their contributors, that is...
*cries in a corner*
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Why did they get rid of Dungeon? I understand that print magazines don't make as much money anymore, but they seemed to have a pretty large following.
Also, I, too, miss Dungeon :(
They didn't get rid of it, WotC chose not to renew Paizo's license to produce it(and Dragon). Instead they(WotC) decided to try to use the name to label some of their Digital Initiative stuff so that people might subscribe to an online only Dungeon/Dragon hybrid. The quality has thus far been horrible so it isn't really considered to still be Dungeon by fans.
That's the quick answer.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I love Pathfinder. I really like well written APs.
But - I miss getting at least 3 adventures a month.
And the articles. And the side trek adventures. And...just everything that made Dungeon - Dungeon.
Towards the end, Dungeon was the perfect blend of stand alones and continuing AP sdventures. It had something for everyone. I miss it and it's a hole that I can't fill. Just when they had the recipe absolutely perfect - the magazine's run came to an end.
Maybe I'll just buy a bunch of back issues, but it isn't the same.
I've replaced Dragon with Kobold Quarterly. I think KQ really fills Dragon's empty shoes. But Dungeon....she's just gone.
*sniff*
I am enjoying Pathfinder and the GameMastery Modules, as well as KQ. But... I still miss Dungeon Mag and Dragon Mag. ~sad sighs~ Oh well. Life goes on.
"Today the internet is where people go to get this kind of information," said Scott Rouse, Senior Brand Manager of Dungeons & Dragons®, Wizards of the Coast. "By moving to an online model we are using a delivery system that broadens our reach to fans around the world. Paizo has been a great partner to us over the last several years. We wish them well on their future endeavors."
Wow. Talk about missing the point. That's inhuman. It's like saying you don't need to see your friends and family any more because you can IM and get emails and texts. The appeal of 'Dungeon' was so much greater than simple utility. Holding the mag and flipping through it, looking at the art, picking up an familiar old back issue and reading through an awesome adventure, the whole deal...that can never be replaced. Major bummer.
I am enjoying Pathfinder and the GameMastery Modules, as well as KQ. But... I still miss Dungeon Mag and Dragon Mag. ~sad sighs~ Oh well. Life goes on.
I'm with you there. When I play I DM most of the time and adventures are my bread and butter. I used to pick up Dragon when it supported more than just TSR's products (in my opinion the Golden Age for the magazine and the hobby) and I loved the ocassional adventures you would see it from time to time. Then came Dungeon nothing but adventures, NPCs, monsters, and pure heaven. I let my Dragon subscription go sometime in the late 80's finding more of what I needed in Dungeon snapping up the occasional must-have issue from Dragon. As much as I like Pathfinder and hope that it does well (as it seems to be), I really miss stand-alone adventures set outside official settings. The grab bag of possibilities that each issue contained (which was lessened somewhat I think by the advent of the Adventure Path and lack of Side Treks) was one of the magazine's best traits. Each month was like a plane ticket that could take you anywhere.
I also like the fact I didn't need an internet connection to read it. That I could cart my magazine anywhere, flip pages to a bit of artwork without scrolling or clicking, and basically having the thing printed out for me rather than having to print it myself.Anyhow, all good things come to an end.... but really good things (like Doctor Who for example) always come back. So here's hoping. ;)
-GGG
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I still hope for a "Trailblazer" monthly (or bi-monthly) companion to Pathfinder, with side-treks, critical threats, maps of mistery, campaign workbook articles for generic dungeon/city/wilderness flavor (these are INVALUABLE), and a random dungeon, encounter, extra bit of equipment or else in it.
Pathfinder and the GameMastery modules are really great. But every time I rummage in my pile of old magazines for that map or idea that will fit in my current campaign, I miss them a lot.
DI fails badly, at the moment being. Badly.
Miss it too.
I keep telling my IT loving friends that however much you make available on a PC, it can never replace what you can hold in your hand.
Miss it too.
I keep telling my IT loving friends that however much you make available on a PC, it can never replace what you can hold in your hand.
Oddly enough orwart the last adventure I wrote for Dungeon, which I hear made it to the schedule, but will now probably not see print (probably not even digital print) featured a bunch of your pseudo-name sakes (orcworts) in all their shambling, leafy glory.
weep.
GGG
DI fails badly, at the moment being. Badly.
I have the distinct feeling it won't pick up until the next edition arrives on the scene... or until that adventure I'm working on for them goes through editing.
;)
GGG
PS If anyone is interested click on the my name tag to find out what I've written.
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I have the distinct feeling it won't pick up until the next edition arrives on the scene... or until that adventure I'm working on for them goes through editing.
;)
GGG
PS If anyone is interested click on the my name tag to find out what I've written.
Don't get me wrong, Great Green Guy, right now it's not really what has shown up that feels bad (the latest adventure is quite good, plus it has Mythos in it - or probably it's because of that?). At least with Dungeon, Dragon fails at the whole front line.
Regarding Dungeon it's more a packaging question. Having to flip a three dozen magazines to find the right bit of information is quite different from the routine of scanning as much files.
You can have them indexed for easier perusal, but you can't beat the feeling of looking into the wrong magazine and discovering something you forgot and it's just awesome for your next session.
Moreover the old Paizo format included adventures, extra infos, comics and stuff into a single piece (an issue) while the new format (the file) is comprised of just an adventure, an article, etc. Maybe it's just a matter of getting oneself accostumed to it, but I find it chaotic.
And the paper magazine is a completeley different matter to read on the train, compared to a laptop with a pdf.
Don't even get me started on the printing issues, please. ;-D
It's been said over and over, but I have really been feeling the loss of the magazines lately. I just wish a new dungeon would arrive in my mailbox for xmas. Thanks santa :(
I'm right there with you.
-The Gneech
Yeah. I've grown to really hate reading PDFs. Sometimes I'll swallow the ol' pride and just do it (after downloading an out of print 2nd edition module or to get a sneak peek at a Pathfinder adventure) but I by far prefer buying the magazine, since I don't have the luxury of a printer and taking my pdfs to a print shop to make hard copies would be prohibitively expensive.
I haven't had a chance to read the latest adventure, though I did download it. It looks good, but there's a bad product placement taste in my mouth since they put out an aboleth adventure while also pushing the Elder Evils hardcover.
Also, in Dungeon, you could expect a sidebar to explain noncore feats/magic items/spells if they were used. Current versions of Dragon contain things from the Magic Item Compendium, for instance, and have no sidebars. You have to either go out and buy the compendium or try and replace the item based solely on its name. Super lame.
I haven't had a chance to read the latest adventure, though I did download it. It looks good, but there's a bad product placement taste in my mouth since they put out an aboleth adventure while also pushing the Elder Evils hardcover.
"The Last Breaths of Ashenport" has nothing to do with Elder Evils and it is hardly an aboleth adventure. Also, you must have had this bad taste in your mouth for such adventures as "The Porphyry House Horror" (Book of Vile Darkness), "The Raiders of Black Ice" (Frostburn), "The Styes" (Lords of Madness), "Seekers of the Silver Forge" (Stormwrack), and "The Obsidian Eye" (Sandstorm), all of which appeared in Dungeon at roughly the same time as the sourcebooks they drew material from.
Dungeon and especially Dragon were and remain primarily a form of advertising for the D&D product line.
BTW, there is only the one article in the DI that does not provide at least a brief explanation of the non-core material.
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This quote from the Mona interview in Kobold Quarterly(best zine ever!!) makes the loss sting even worse. "One of the big
pities about Dungeon and Dragon going
away is that we had been talking to Rob
about official levels of Castle Greyhawk,
based on the original levels back in the 70s
that he ran."
Holy &***((((**!!!! :(
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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While I also miss Dungeon, the changing of the postal rates at the end of this summer might have killed the magazine even if WOTC hadn't. Already IQ Gamer is cancelled and I believe it has to do with the post office setting rates to give price breaks to Time-Warner mags while increasing prices for smaller distribution magazines(including Time-Warner competitors).
I don't know if Paizo would have been able to keep Dungeon going with the new costs...it may have been that people would accept higher prices for Dungeon...but the good news is that with Pathfinder as a book, Paizo managed to transition its subscribers to a new product while avoiding the postal hikes.
This had nothing to do with anything, I'm afraid.
This quote from the Mona interview in Kobold Quarterly(best zine ever!!) makes the loss sting even worse. "One of the big
pities about Dungeon and Dragon going
away is that we had been talking to Rob
about official levels of Castle Greyhawk,
based on the original levels back in the 70s
that he ran."Holy &***((((**!!!! :(
Well shucks to that. Double shucks with black pudding on top.
Does anyone know if there has been any progress on any of the collaborative projects with Rob that were mentioned after GenCon (I think it was GenCon) this year?
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Let's see, I work on a computer 8 or more hours a day, I loved actually reading my Dungeon and Dragon magz... Wizards blew it!
I also miss my magz, under Paizo's hands, Dungeon went from a good mag to a great mag!
I also would love to see a "Trailblazer" mag, Have paizo's friends contribute and advertise, charge $15/month, I'd be all in! Since it wouldn't be Wizards property, it could be better! Like Pathfinder!
Let's see, I work on a computer 8 or more hours a day, I loved actually reading my Dungeon and Dragon magz... Wizards blew it!
This is the biggest killer for me.
Digital copies do not go where I wish to go…yet. The Sony E Reader and the Kindle are baby steps in the right direction (though the Kindle decided to go DRM, which I wouldn’t even deign to defecate on; same reason my wife won’t be getting Sims 2 Bon Voyage at Christmas, big bummer).
To win me over, digital copies need to beat paper at its own game. If they can build full .pdf support into the DS (there are a few hacks now), spruce it up a bit for books, extend the battery life to say, 10-12 hours (past 10 hours on a novel my eyes start to get tired), and then make it 100% waterproof, digital books will take off.
As it stands, sitting around at my computer, even a laptop outside, all day just to read a magazine….not happening.
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I looked into starting up a small publishing company to meet the gap Dungeon left and let me tell you, "t'ain't cheap, McGee!"
Actually, it's not quite that bad, the trick is getting capital to start with, especially if you have no print publication experience to show. The real expense is in time. You have to be able to commit a great deal of time to getting your business started, moreso if you are trying to keep a day job at the same time. (And my advice is: "don't")
I was looking at needing around $300,000.00 to fund the company for the first two years with a quarterly magazine. This was with one full time employee (myself, because mortgages don't pay themselves) and a handful of hourly contractors to do the parts I couldn't (like pre-press layout and the like). In other words, I would be the editor, sales rep, submissions rep, web rep, advertising rep, and the rest. Several of those hats take all your time by themselves. I have much respect for folks who can do it. I'm not there yet.
So I'm forming a design house until I get enough publication cred to try again.
Man, I wish Dungeon still existed!
Boo hoo me too!
I looked into starting up a small publishing company to meet the gap Dungeon left and let me tell you, "t'ain't cheap, McGee!"
Actually, it's not quite that bad, the trick is getting capital to start with, especially if you have no print publication experience to show. The real expense is in time. You have to be able to commit a great deal of time to getting your business started, moreso if you are trying to keep a day job at the same time. (And my advice is: "don't")
I was looking at needing around $300,000.00 to fund the company for the first two years with a quarterly magazine. This was with one full time employee (myself, because mortgages don't pay themselves) and a handful of hourly contractors to do the parts I couldn't (like pre-press layout and the like). In other words, I would be the editor, sales rep, submissions rep, web rep, advertising rep, and the rest. Several of those hats take all your time by themselves. I have much respect for folks who can do it. I'm not there yet.
So I'm forming a design house until I get enough publication cred to try again.
Man, I wish Dungeon still existed!
Good luck Patrick, I can't wait to read your quarterly.
As for Dungeon 9not to mention Dragon) I miss you buddy. I miss you lots. :(
Let's see, I work on a computer 8 or more hours a day, I loved actually reading my Dungeon and Dragon magz... Wizards blew it!This is the biggest killer for me.
As it stands, sitting around at my computer, even a laptop outside, all day just to read a magazine….not happening.
QFT. Not only am I on a computer most of the day, I'm having to look at pdfs constantly. My poor eyes can't take anymore. I will never use a digital magazine.
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Strangely, I do not miss Dungeon as much as I would have expected. The Gamemastery and Pathfinder series have been filling the niche for both Stand alone and APs for me at least. I also get my fiction fix (via the Pathfinder Journal), backdrops, monsters etc (filling some of the Dragon content) and Paizo does it in a campaign setting which creates a cohesiveness that could not be done in the older formats. But it is still done in a way that encounters and material can be mined easily.
The two sections I miss most from Dungeon and Dragon are the First Watch and Scale Mail and Prison Mail. However, the loss of both of those are eased somewhat by the previews and message boards here on the Paizo site.
I do feel bad for the poor souls who can't afford Pathfinder or who only subscribed to Dragon and have no need for adventures.
I fit into that catergory. I just can't justify 20 or so dollars a month on adventures when most will porbably go unused, even if they are well written. Dungeon had an awesome cost to content ratio that we will never see again.
I've taken to reading back issues on a monthly schedule.
It's not the same ... but it takes away a little of the sting.
There was always something about Dungeon magazine - it was three adventures in one publication (at least by the time it was over) and articles and lots of cool art. Even if I didn't read every adventure, I'd at least look over them for interesting stuff. I really like Pathfinder, but it doesn't seem like a substitute for Dungeon. Neither does the online version (which it's hard to "flip through" and the content seems few and far between).
It truly feels like the magazines gone. Couldn't they have made a 4e without getting rid of the print magazines?
RIP.
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While I love Pathfinder, I find that it very adequately covers the loss of Dungeon, but not so much with Dragon. Sure they put the core beliefs-type stuff in there as well as the odd new prestige class. But how are the non-DM's supposed to take advantage of it? Pathfinder is mostly a dms only book.
It's too bad Kobold Quarterly wouldn't do some Varisia-specific articles with some different pc options. That would kick some serious a$s!
"Today the internet is where people go to get this kind of information," said Scott Rouse, Senior Brand Manager of Dungeons & Dragons®, Wizards of the Coast. "By moving to an online model we are using a delivery system that broadens our reach to fans around the world. Paizo has been a great partner to us over the last several years. We wish them well on their future endeavors."
Wow. Talk about missing the point. That's inhuman. It's like saying you don't need to see your friends and family any more because you can IM and get emails and texts. The appeal of 'Dungeon' was so much greater than simple utility. Holding the mag and flipping through it, looking at the art, picking up an familiar old back issue and reading through an awesome adventure, the whole deal...that can never be replaced. Major bummer.
EXACTLY.
Dungeon was part of the experience, for me. The point wasn't how fast I got an article that dealt with D&D. The point was getting a physical magazine filled with quality adventures & ideas that got my imagination going, as well as acted as a centering point of a hobby I've enjoyed with long time friends for decades.
I've written, erased, and rewritten what Dungeon meant to me 1/2 dozen times here, and nothing sounds right. I'll simply say it fit my gaming group, our style & preferences, and provided the majority of our D&D entertainment for a long time now. That can't be replaced so easily.
J-
"Today the internet is where people go to get this kind of information," said Scott Rouse, Senior Brand Manager of Dungeons & Dragons®, Wizards of the Coast. "By moving to an online model we are using a delivery system that broadens our reach to fans around the world. Paizo has been a great partner to us over the last several years. We wish them well on their future endeavors."
As another Senior Brand Manager, I see this as a polite way of saying "We had a brand review and you ain't part of it."
The D&D brand review appears to have revisited their core values whilst trying to incorporate the modern mediums and channels that are available today. I'm certain they also invested in researching customer insight to ascertain what players of the D&D game percieve as enjoyable aspects of 1) D&D and 2) fantasy roleplaying in general (online and off).
Add this to the demands of the modern D&D player, especially younger players, and it starts to lean heavily towards a system that is quick, accessible and dependant on online support (I refuse to believe that it won't be). It's the online support that is oh-so important to this new edition of D&D.
If you think about 3rd ed, it was released around the dot com boom and it would have been difficult to anticipate online engagement. So when websites developed by fans began springing up everywhere to support the game, some fans made money from programmes and similar. This just wasn't possible with earlier editions. WOTC/Hasbro would have looked at this behaviour and wondered how to take control and make sure the dollars rolled their way. Another thing about 3rd ed was that fans started to interact with WOTC more than ever; this required investment by WOTC to develop a robust website and discussion board, which needs management and therefore costs money. All this for a game that is not extremely profitable after people but the core rules - the splat books would have helped a little here, but not much.
What this amounts to as a major requirement of 4E is that online support remains profitable. The new D&D brand will do its utmost to promise a game that is better than its predecessors, with more bang-for-your-buck. How can it deliver that with just a set of hardcovers? It can't - online support will be its vehicle, and once the consumer is engaged in this new channel it will be extremely hard for them to turn away from it, especially if they have also made an investment by switching to 4E in the first place.
Anyway, to get back to basics, D&D is still a trusted brand despite some comments on these boards. This is borne out by the amount of people who say they will give it a look even though it is going to change a lot. Why? Because it's called D&D. Some might say this trust is now being abused, but WOTC are risking (a low risk IMO) that when fans engage, they won't want to let go.
It's the power of brand, dudes.
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You know, I'm not even really reading Pathfinder. I browsed over the first adventure; I think I glanced at the second. The others are just sitting on the shelf. Quality stuff, you know, just, well, just not three seperate adventure scenarios, prison mail and an editorial. I love editorials the most -- I'd pay top dollar for a compilation of the mags' editorials alone. Top dollar.
I miss Dungeon.
On a side note, GGG, why is the "Contributer" moniker gone from your Avatar name?
- W. E. Ray
I have yet to contribute to the new GameMastery/Pathfinder regime, and as there is a very limited outlet within Paizo for such I doubt I shall secure the title ever again here. However, I will be probably be (cross your fingers - the manuscript is in Chris' hands) securing the title once again within the DI version of Dungeon. I hope you all like horror. On a side note, I am sorry to say that I got blanked today over in the Best Adventure I Never Wrote Contest they continue to hold over on the WotC/Dungeon Site. I secured 66% of the vote this week (two submissions in the Mid-High level bracket) and still got blanked....
Ah, well. Try, try again. ;)
Matt
Author of (among other things) The Menagerie, Masque of Dreams, and principle scribe of part three of the Seeds of Sehan Arc (in collaboration with Messrs. Happ, Greer, Ganz, and Doyon) Dread Pagoda of the Inscrutable Ones. And would have been author of Garden of Wonders (a huge 22,000+ word high-level Alice in Wonderlandesque adventure, which was accepted by Paizo, and put on the schedule until the they lost their license). le sigh. So you see, I really miss print-Dungeon a lot. ;)
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On a side note, GGG, why is the "Contributer" moniker gone from your Avatar name?
- W. E. Ray
I have yet to contribute to the new GameMastery/Pathfinder regime, and as there is a very limited outlet within Paizo for such I doubt I shall secure the title ever again here. However, I will be probably be (cross your fingers - the manuscript is in Chris' hands) securing the title once again within the DI version of Dungeon. I hope you all like horror. On a side note, I am sorry to say that I got blanked today over in the Best Adventure I Never Wrote Contest they continue to hold over on the WotC/Dungeon Site. I secured 66% of the vote this week (two submissions in the Mid-High level bracket) and still got blanked....
Ah, well. Try, try again. ;)
MattAuthor of (among other things) The Menagerie, Masque of Dreams, and principle scribe of part three of the Seeds of Sehan Arc (in collaboration with Messrs. Happ, Greer, Ganz, and Doyon) Dread Pagoda of the Inscrutable Ones. And would have been author of Garden of Wonders (a huge 22,000+ word high-level Alice in Wonderlandesque adventure, which was accepted by Paizo, and put on the schedule until the they lost their license). le sigh. So you see, I really miss print-Dungeon a lot. ;)
You will always be a contributer in my book G Cubed. :)
You will always be a contributer in my book G Cubed. :)
I'll try to live up to that praise.
Now quiet. Do you hear a storm coming?
Triple-G